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BillBear posted:The Ironborn can actually be just as badass as vikings when ruled right, they managed to conquer large parts of Westeros before the Targs came and were the most feared people in the Kingdoms, it's just recently they kinda suck nuts. Bobo the Red posted:and is serving a pretty clearly evil deity to boot?
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May 6, 2015 19:23
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Bobo the Red posted:As Varys said The current monarch Varys claims to support built her position on far darker arts than the Red Faith (the Dragons were born in literally the same sort of ceremony which maimed him, if that story is true). Whenever Varys opens his mouth, it's for the benefit of whoever happens to be listening, but never the audience of the show. You could pore over every one of his scenes to try and determine when he's actually saying something which furthers his real goals, but it will never be clear until the show ends; probably not even then. tin can made man fucked around with this message at 19:40 on May 6, 2015 |
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May 6, 2015 19:37
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tin can made man posted:The current monarch Varys claims to support built her position on far darker arts than the Red Faith (the Dragons were born in literally the same sort of ceremony which maimed him, if that story is true). Whenever Varys opens his mouth, it's for the benefit of whoever happens to be listening, but never the audience of the show. What? The dragons were born in a pyre of someone being burned alive, something Daenerys did once, in an act of vengeance. Stannis does the same thing super casually. How the gently caress is what she did darker? Manic Mailman posted:That's just Varys hamming it up for Tyrion. doesn't prove a drat thing considering he was plotting to have Khaleesi killed/rooting for her at the same time. He was pretty clearly going through the motions of trying to kill her, as this world has demonstrated that effective assassins exist in easy reach. A Buttery Pastry posted:Clearly evil? Fire warms and it consumes, you can't have one without the other. We're not talking an omnipotent deity here, could be it needs kindling to do its thing. Burning innocent humans as kindling is not evil? If the Red God needs evil poo poo to have power, it is an evil god. Plus, Mel kinda let us know that most of the religion was smoke and mirrors, making the human sacrifices no less evil, but certainly far more nuts. Bobo the Red fucked around with this message at 19:47 on May 6, 2015 |
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May 6, 2015 19:42
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tin can made man posted:The current monarch Varys claims to support built her position on far darker arts than the Red Faith (the Dragons were born in literally the same sort of ceremony which maimed him, if that story is true). Whenever Varys opens his mouth, it's for the benefit of whoever happens to be listening, but never the audience of the show. Well, but to be fair, he does seem to be pretty consistent in the principles he claims to hold, no matter who he's speaking to. Everything he does or supports does seem to be aimed at promoting peace in the Seven Kingdoms. That said, if anyone's capable of misleading the audience throughout the entirety of the series (books or TV), it's Varys. He really is my favorite character, no contest. Manic Mailman posted:That's just Varys hamming it up for Tyrion. doesn't prove a drat thing considering he was plotting to have Khaleesi killed/rooting for her at the same time. I get the impression that his opinion on her has evolved - that once Drogo was out of the picture and Daenerys started conquering poo poo, he realized, "Oh hey, she might actually have a chance of winning."
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May 6, 2015 19:50
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Bobo the Red posted:Burning innocent humans as kindling is not evil? If the Red God needs evil poo poo to have power, it is an evil god. Plus, Mel kinda let us know that most of the religion was smoke and mirrors, making the human sacrifices no less evil, but certainly far more nuts. Stannis is right to burn people though, because his god commands it, and unlike any of the other gods on this show, this god has been shown to be the real deal.
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May 6, 2015 20:12
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Bobo the Red posted:Hey, you wanna root for a pragmatic, murderous version of Robert, go for it. i just wish people would stop acting like he's some noble, dutiful scion of hope. We've seen two rulers (Robert and Daenerys) who are great at conquering and terrible at ruling already, why would you want one who is even worse at it, and is serving a pretty clearly evil deity to boot? I never said Stannis' actions are noble, just pragmatic. Renly wasn't going to back down and had a larger army. What Stannis did was straight Sun Tzu 101. Hey, if you have an ace up your sleeve (weather it's shadow-babies or dragons), use it. There is no black and white here - every major player has done something questionable in pursuit of the throne. Being 'noble' will just get you killed. Not what I call ideal, but right now it seems only the Night's Watch and Team Stannis have some focus and are trying to get the job done. Until something better comes along, I'll root for them.
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May 6, 2015 20:16
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Lycus posted:Another vague time reference was Littlefinger saying that Sansa was tormented by Joffrey for years. Yet Sansa was 13 in the first episode of the series and 14 in Season 3 episode 8.
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May 6, 2015 20:36
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Bobo the Red posted:Burning innocent humans as kindling is not evil? If the Red God needs evil poo poo to have power, it is an evil god. Plus, Mel kinda let us know that most of the religion was smoke and mirrors, making the human sacrifices no less evil, but certainly far more nuts. marktheando posted:Stannis is right to burn people though, because his god commands it, and unlike any of the other gods on this show, this god has been shown to be the real deal.
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May 6, 2015 20:59
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marktheando posted:Stannis is right to burn people though, because his god commands it, and unlike any of the other gods on this show, this god has been shown to be the real deal. This reminds me that I want to see the Brotherhood Without Banners again. The only hope for Westeros lies not in the bloody wheel of fortune that is monarchy (whether feudal or absolute, Dany may seem progressive but she's still a despot) but in killing all the nobles.
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May 6, 2015 21:19
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CharlieFoxtrot posted:This reminds me that I want to see the Brotherhood Without Banners again. The only hope for Westeros lies not in the bloody wheel of fortune that is monarchy (whether feudal or absolute, Dany may seem progressive but she's still a despot) but in killing all the nobles. Except for Shireen...because, you know, of her mission to bring literacy to the masses. 
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May 6, 2015 21:25
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Super Ninja Fish posted:Yet Sansa was 13 in the first episode of the series and 14 in Season 3 episode 8. Given Joffery starts tormenting Sansa from the middle of season 1 right up to his death in the middle of season 4, a timescale of roughly 1 year per season would make Littlefingers statement correct. The above statement could also be correct depending on when her birthday is in relation to the events in the show. 9 months - a year of "our" time sounds about right. As well as scale, time is also not something the source material and author is good at
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May 6, 2015 22:19
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Bobo the Red posted:What? The dragons were born in a pyre of someone being burned alive, something Daenerys did once, in an act of vengeance. Stannis does the same thing super casually. How the gently caress is what she did darker? "Dark" in this case doesn't necessarily mean "evil". The funeral pyre for Khal Drogo, while not intending to be a ritual, ended up being the most effective one we've seen to date, and based on the darkest of magic. It was, one could argue, the king's blood in Khal Drogo, mixed with whatever Mirri Maz Dur's sacrifice added to it (she may also be considered an innocent by some), which was powerful enough give Danerys her birthright. Stannis has squirted half-living shades into existence, and burned men and leeches for good fortune (whether or not correlation = causation in those instances is unclear), and Thoros has managed to breathe life into someone just recently dead, but Daenerys? Her ritual was powerful enough to transform never-born, fossilized-into-literal-stone remains into fire made flesh; and not just one, but all three. Whether or not her acts are more evil is up for debate, but it seems indisputable that if Varys takes umbrage with Stannis' magic, he must have some objections to the woman whose entire schtick is to carry the last living three embodiments of arcana on her shoulder and call them her children. Additionally, if it is king's blood which causes magic to do it's thing, that raises an interesting question about why someone would want to chop off and burn bits of Varys - if indeed that ever happened.
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May 6, 2015 22:21
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I think if Danny's storyline was more exciting everyone would be on her boat instead of Stannis. She is the Stormborn, the person responsible for bringing dragons back into the world and in a path to conquer the throne that is hers by blood right. She is the most badass. Too bad the show depicts her as being so boring.
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May 6, 2015 22:51
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Kanthulhu posted:I think if Danny's storyline was more exciting everyone would be on her boat instead of Stannis. To be fair, part of it is meant to be deliberately mundane - ie, being a ruler isn't just about kicking rear end and take names and all that. And well, the series has made a habit of interrupting events with various anti-climaxes to show things don't always build up to what you expect. But I don't think the set up proves particularly helpful in creating interesting situations, exacerbated by the fact that, as a relative fan favourite, they can't have her drop off the show for a while to let the boring bits progress offscreen. Dany's left largely reacting to the actions of others, and the one major choice she's made, of course, is generally shown to not have been to her particular benefit (and ultimately, Grey Worm and Ser Barristan's). Checking on her dragons leads to nothing except cementing that she screwed that up as well, and its hard to say what the point of Drogon coming back will be until he does something too. Hell, one could argue that even the execution has yet to actually be of real significance, given that the event that followed could really have happened either way, so they've kept bringing Daenerys up without having much of a particular point to it: And at best, I imagine its an excuse to give Jorah a chance to put himself on public display so he can then try and get forgiveness.
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May 6, 2015 23:21
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marktheando posted:Stannis is right to burn people though, because his god commands it, and unlike any of the other gods on this show, this god has been shown to be the real deal. His god doesn't command it, a lady he wants to gently caress says a god commands it. He started tearing down the temples (and maybe burning people?) before the shadow baby, which might be 'proof'. Also, his god wanting people dead does not absolve Stannis in any way. Also, the Old Gods seem to have powers, which they seem to give out non-murderously. Vote Old Gods all day. A Buttery Pastry posted:It's also opposed to the white walkers, which seem like a big enough deal that a few hundred nobles on a pyre would be a small sacrifice if it meant even a little help in defeating them. Hell, getting rid of disloyal nobles might have secured his own lands enough that he could actually contemplate going north, and thus saving the Night's Watch. The Lord of Light moves in not so mysterious ways. If burning people of noble blood is what it takes, he should be throwing himself and his daughter on the pyre first. And his nobles were not disloyal. They were his loyal bannermen who were ALSO loyal to their ancestral religion, a religion Stannis at least nominally belonged to until he saw a nicer pair of titties Joachim1167 posted:I never said Stannis' actions are noble, just pragmatic. Renly wasn't going to back down and had a larger army. What Stannis did was straight Sun Tzu 101. Hey, if you have an ace up your sleeve (weather it's shadow-babies or dragons), use it. There is no black and white here - every major player has done something questionable in pursuit of the throne. Being 'noble' will just get you killed. You may not have. a lot of people like to defend Stannis as this bastion of righteousness and duty, when he's more a power hungry psychopath who applies justice to everyone but himself. Also, Stannis came north to fight the Wildlings, not the White Walkers. He is, in fact, about to leave to resume his war. tin can made man posted:"Dark" in this case doesn't necessarily mean "evil". The funeral pyre for Khal Drogo, while not intending to be a ritual, ended up being the most effective one we've seen to date, and based on the darkest of magic. It was, one could argue, the king's blood in Khal Drogo, mixed with whatever Mirri Maz Dur's sacrifice added to it (she may also be considered an innocent by some), which was powerful enough give Danerys her birthright. Well, even if one bought into "Khal Drogo had special blood, and Dany accidentally did the darkest magic ever, way darker than the thousands of similar burnings Stannis does", Dany did it by accident. She killed the woman on purpose, because she was mad as hell, but she didn't engage in human sacrifice in order to maximize her power. Varys would have zero reason to view those things as remotely similar. Edit: Varys has very personal reasons for hating people who hurt others for supernatural power. Stannis is the one doing that basically every godamn episode. Bobo the Red fucked around with this message at 23:31 on May 6, 2015 |
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May 6, 2015 23:22
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Joachim1167 posted:I never said Stannis' actions are noble, just pragmatic. Renly wasn't going to back down and had a larger army. What Stannis did was straight Sun Tzu 101. Hey, if you have an ace up your sleeve (weather it's shadow-babies or dragons), use it. There is no black and white here - every major player has done something questionable in pursuit of the throne. Being 'noble' will just get you killed. Personally, I'm not rooting for anyone, I'm just watching to see what happens next. Anybody looking for anybody noble and good in Game of Thrones is missing the point of the show/books. Everybody is out for themselves. "What's best for the Kingdom" always translates to "how will the kingdom best benefit me?". There was an important scene in the books that was left out of the show with The Hound and Arya taking a ferry across a river that explains that point perfectly. Mr Beens posted:Given Joffery starts tormenting Sansa from the middle of season 1 Was that the middle? I thought that was the second or third episode. He starts tormenting her after he demands her wolf be killed in place of Arya's. My Q-Face fucked around with this message at 23:27 on May 6, 2015 |
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May 6, 2015 23:24
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My Q-Face posted:Personally, I'm not rooting for anyone, I'm just watching to see what happens next. Anybody looking for anybody noble and good in Game of Thrones is missing the point of the show/books. Everybody is out for themselves. "What's best for the Kingdom" always translates to "how will the kingdom best benefit me?". Does the Hound kill the ferryman when they are halfway across?
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May 6, 2015 23:33
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My Q-Face posted:Was that the middle? I thought that was the second or third episode. He starts tormenting her after he demands her wolf be killed in place of Arya's. He apologizes to her after Lady dies (gives her a lion necklace) and then acts the perfect prince until he becomes king, whereupon he goes full psycho. Bobo the Red posted:Does the Hound kill the ferryman when they are halfway across? He swindled the ferrymen out of their payment and, since you asked, indirectly causes one of them to drown by coercing them to go across a raging river during a storm in the first place.
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May 7, 2015 00:00
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My Q-Face posted:Everybody is out for themselves. "What's best for the Kingdom" always translates to "how will the kingdom best benefit me?". Except for Melisandre, who so far seems pretty sincere in her devotion to R'hllor (though judging by her reaction to Beric and Thoros, she might be in a smidge over her head). I'm rooting for Melisandre. She's my favorite and as far as I am concerned she can do no wrong. Burning Selyse's family at the stakes? They probably had it coming. Shadow baby murders Renly? He was a traitor and deserved death. She winds up burning down all of Westeros? Perfect, there's nothing left for White Walkers to devour. "The night is dark and full of terrors, but the fire burns them all away."
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May 7, 2015 00:56
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marktheando posted:Stannis is right to burn people though, because his god commands it, and unlike any of the other gods on this show, this god has been shown to be the real deal. That...really isn't how "right" works? In Lovecraft mythos, elder gods objectively exist, too, but they're still forces of evil. This is also assuming Melisandre's interpretation is on the level; that the Lord of Light works the way she says he does. All we know is that some set of magical phenomena associated with R'hollor actually work, but there's also a ton of magic with no connection to it that works - that behind the White Walkers or Children of the Forest, or the weirwood religion of the First Men. The true nature of "magic" in the show isn't fully known. But I'm going to go out on a limb and say you're supposed to have seen Jon as heroic for killing Mance humanely, in defiance of Stannis' pyromania. The way he uses his religion is supposed to be hosed up and upsetting; characters like Davos, or Gendry, or Shireen who speak critically about it are also in the right to do so.
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May 7, 2015 00:59
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Part of me wonders if Melisandre will ever encounter another red priest/ess in series, and get stuck having to debate how and why she's so fervent in her belief that Stannis is Azor Ahai. Thoros is the obvious option if they do ever bring the brotherhood without banners back into play, but I find it curious how they made a point of demonstrating that some of the same faith think its Dany who fits the legend. I know, in universe, it makes sense to be some disparity among the clergy, but one would hope they're trying to have a point with it.
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May 7, 2015 01:02
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Melisandre already met Thoros when she came to get Gendry.
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May 7, 2015 01:10
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....god, yeah, sorry. Can't believe that slipped my mind, especially given my sister keeps throwing out the obligatory 'whatever happened to Gendry?' whenever we discuss the series.
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May 7, 2015 01:12
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Astro Nut posted:Part of me wonders if Melisandre will ever encounter another red priest/ess in series I'm sure though that it's not necessarily a unified religion - there are priests and priestesses, and I know they have a main religious headquarters in one of the Free Cities, but I'm sure a lot of it is just "there is this very interesting person and I think they are the real Azor Ahai!" If I recall correctly it's almost certainly connected to the Prince who was Promised or whatever prophecy, which means it's related to the Targaryan mythology, which in turn means it almost certainly is also related to the White Walkers. But who knows if the show or books will ever make it clear what exactly is going on.
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May 7, 2015 01:15
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I think it's not unlikely that Mel is actually being granted powers by the 'adversary', whatever that is, to empower the wrong person. She was surprised by the powers Thoros had, and visions, poison resistance, and shadow babies hardly spell out 'lord of light' to me. She reads like a priestess who used to dupe people into believing with powders and mirrors and poo poo, and now she's being duped into believing she's following the right deity (and murdering shitloads of innocents along the way). Bobo the Red fucked around with this message at 02:31 on May 7, 2015 |
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May 7, 2015 02:27
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Bobo the Red posted:I think it's not unlikely that Mel is actually being granted powers by the 'adversary', whatever that is, to empower the wrong person. She was surprised by the powers Thoros had, and visions, poison resistance, and shadow babies hardly spell out 'lord of light' to me. Melisandre just took Stannis' death to Howland Reed very hard.
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May 7, 2015 02:55
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Bobo the Red posted:I think it's not unlikely that Mel is actually being granted powers by the 'adversary', whatever that is, to empower the wrong person. She was surprised by the powers Thoros had, and visions, poison resistance, and shadow babies hardly spell out 'lord of light' to me. I actually think it does, but then my first impression of Melisandre's character when reading the books (and this translated very well to her debut in the show) and her religion was so overwhelmingly "Author Is Hitting You Over The Head With The 'SHE IS EVIL' Hammer" that I figured "Lord Of Light" was meant to be a takeoff on "Light-Bearer" which is one of the aliases/epithets of Lucifer. So Stannis essentially worships Satan and all but literally made the Faustian Bargain, particularly with regards to Renly's demise. And yet he's STILL more sympathetic than Joffrey when they go head to head at the end of Season/Book 2. After Thoros got introduced (and with him, another perspective on the religion) I was less sure. Something along the lines of what you're saying [Melisandre is a heretic and/or an unwitting dupe] seems more possible.
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May 7, 2015 03:13
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pasaluki posted:Melisandre just took Stannis' death to Howland Reed very hard. Those skeletons were working for the Red God? 
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May 7, 2015 03:21
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Mister Perky posted:I actually think it does, but then my first impression of Melisandre's character when reading the books (and this translated very well to her debut in the show) and her religion was so overwhelmingly "Author Is Hitting You Over The Head With The 'SHE IS EVIL' Hammer" that I figured "Lord Of Light" was meant to be a takeoff on "Light-Bearer" which is one of the aliases/epithets of Lucifer. One thing interesting with Arya's plot, is she noticed that there were all of the Gods of Westeros there, but the people keep calling them the "many faced God." I think their take (just a guess here) is that all of them are aspects of the same deity, which includes the Lord of Light stuff; but does not include what drives the white walkers. So effectively I think they are worshiping different aspects of the same deity. Remember all the magical spirits flying out of the fire and stuff is a trick, done with powders and slight of hand. The Lord of Light is not actually rewarding anyone for the mass burnings. My Q-Face posted:Personally, I'm not rooting for anyone, I'm just watching to see what happens next. Anybody looking for anybody noble and good in Game of Thrones is missing the point of the show/books. Everybody is out for themselves. "What's best for the Kingdom" always translates to "how will the kingdom best benefit me?". There's exceptions. I really think people like Davos are trying to do what they think is right, and he was willing to be burned alive for that end. People like Stannis I think honestly and completely believe that if they were King, they could do right by their people and save them from untold thousands of deaths when winter comes. Ironically it doesn't mean they actually do the right thing, but sometimes I think there's a few characters who honestly try to. It's just that they usually end up completely dead or are undone by a single selfish act (Robb breaking his marriage vow, despite being otherwise very much a do-gooder). ED: Davos really might be the most selfless person on the show, now that I put more thought into it. Blazing Ownager fucked around with this message at 03:44 on May 7, 2015 |
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May 7, 2015 03:37
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Jerusalem posted:Those skeletons were working for the Red God? Lol One of those skeletons might have been Stannis himself. The skeletons weren't anything like the wight thralls the Others have (which are more like zombies) so they basically just popped out of the ground to gently caress with Howland Reed albeit indirectly
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May 7, 2015 03:54
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The "Many Faced God" is Death Jaqen told Arya "you already know his name" because, of course, Syrio told her way back in season 1 "There's only one god: Death. And there's only one thing we say to him: Not Today." It may be worth remembering at this point that Syrio was from Braavos so he was probably familiar with these guys. Obviously they're a big deal over there since anyone from Braavos will immediately drop what they're doing and take a girl in a boat across the sea to Braavos if/when she shows them the coin. And those three guys who were about to mug (or worse) Arya in that alleyway INSTANTLY turned tail and ran when they got one glimpse of one dude from the temple. Obviously everyone in Braavos knows/believes it is suicidally insane to even think about loving with these guys, which is pretty amusing. And if they are mystical assassins that literally worship death perhaps it's easy to see why. To them all "Gods" that anyone worships anywhere are really just a facet/aspect of their guy. It's more of a forgiving "ehhh they mean well, they just have the name wrong, their hearts are in the right place, it's cool, whatever, Death doesn't really care about splitting those hairs, everyone comes to him in the end anyway" than the "JOIN US OR DIE OURS IS THE ONE AND ONLY TRUE FAITH YOU'RE EITHER WITH US OR EVIL!" tack the Red God religion seems to take. Also in terms of its function and role in the setting The Seven is pretty much Medieval European Catholicism with the serial number filed off, so it's kinda the same deal as the Trinity, only there's 7 of them instead of 3, but it's a similar idea of them simultaneously being separate beings and yet also all One. Even without the house of black & white being into Death as the one true God they could rightly call Westeros' Seven a/the "Many Faced God" (to say nothing of The Old Gods, who seems to be myriad and nameless and akin to animist faiths where there is a god [or an aspect of a god] in pretty much everything). Meanwhile the increasingly irrelevant Ironborn have their own special god unto themselves, The Drowned God, who has a rather cthonic-sounding mantra of "What Is Dead Can Never Die" and takes every good Ironborn boy (or girl, in Yara's case) who dies in combat LIKE A WARRIOR  to what is more or less an undersea Valhalla. Though at this point in the show you'd easily be forgiven for not knowing or caring about this one. It's only slightly less irrelevant than the horse god/Stallion That Mounts The World that Khal Drogo believed in and who Dany's baby was sorta supposed to be the incarnation/aspect of.Who even knows where/if The White Walkers fit in to anybody's theology in this setting. I guess maybe we'll find out by the series finale? Mister Perky fucked around with this message at 04:08 on May 7, 2015 |
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May 7, 2015 04:04
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Bobo the Red posted:I think it's not unlikely that Mel is actually being granted powers by the 'adversary', whatever that is, to empower the wrong person. She was surprised by the powers Thoros had, and visions, poison resistance, and shadow babies hardly spell out 'lord of light' to me.
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May 7, 2015 05:18
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Mister Perky posted:Who even knows where/if The White Walkers fit in to anybody's theology in this setting. I guess maybe we'll find out by the series finale? Craster seems to have believed they were gods.
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May 7, 2015 05:22
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Yes, I agree, the shadow baby does not seem like a product of good, but what is a shadow but the absence of light? Darkness is the absence of light and shadows cannot exist without light.
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May 7, 2015 05:31
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pasaluki posted:Darkness is the absence of light and shadows cannot exist without light.
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May 7, 2015 05:44
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I also have a much wackier theory, where the gods don't really exist, there's just an increase in the magic of the world, and the powers people manifest just reflect what they expect. So the people who think there's a many faced god can change faces, and the ones who think there's a firey god get to do fire stuff, the ones who believe in animal spirits get to warg, and the ones who believe in the Seven don't get magical powers because the Andals weren't magical.
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May 7, 2015 08:17
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With only so much time left on the show I kind of hope the White Walkers never show up on screen or seriously worry anyone except Jon again. It should end with the winner of this cluster gently caress at their coronation smiling as the snow begins to fall.
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May 7, 2015 08:47
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Mister Perky posted:Also in terms of its function and role in the setting The Seven is pretty much Medieval European Catholicism with the serial number filed off, so it's kinda the same deal as the Trinity, only there's 7 of them instead of 3, but it's a similar idea of them simultaneously being separate beings and yet also all One. Even without the house of black & white being into Death as the one true God they could rightly call Westeros' Seven a/the "Many Faced God" (to say nothing of The Old Gods, who seems to be myriad and nameless and akin to animist faiths where there is a god [or an aspect of a god] in pretty much everything). This kinda makes me hope that in medieval Rome there was a whore house where the pope could go and choose between different whores that represent the father, son, and holy spirit. Two costs extra!
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May 7, 2015 09:30
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Blazing Ownager posted:There's exceptions. I really think people like Davos are trying to do what they think is right, and he was willing to be burned alive for that end. People like Stannis I think honestly and completely believe that if they were King, they could do right by their people and save them from untold thousands of deaths when winter comes. Now that all his children are dead and he's living on borrowed time, sure. But then, he's not a noble either. One of the big themes in the series is "the nobility have all these claims and myths about them and how great and important they are, but in reality they're all petty and self absorbed and do more harm than good for the people they rule". Tyrion is the sort-of exception to this.
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May 7, 2015 10:23
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I know that Tommen isn't as psychotic or intimidating as his older brother, but I would like to believe that he has some grasp on what is going on at the very moment. Tommen realizes that his new wife and his mother do not get along. Tommen seems to show true affection toward his new wife, and I am sure he is aware of Cersi's methods of protecting him. So here is what I am proposing Tommen do to solve this issue: Proclaim that Sir Loras is being held against the will of the crown, and that if certain "moves" were to be taken to eliminate Loras than the crown would have to step in, with force. This would put Tommen on the front lines and (lets face it) an easy target. CErsi might reconsider the whole mess and have Loras released. I forgot the fanatics name, but It seems Cersi and him are working together. If Tommen wanted to come out on top, this is the way to go, I think.
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May 7, 2015 10:23
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