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May 7, 2015 18:13
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RBC posted:why are you people legitimately arguing with others whose position is literally "gently caress the poor" an d are linking to milton friedman hobbyist websites Because asdf32 still refuses to deny that he has hosed a watermelon. Leading me to conclude that he has indeed, at some point in his life, hosed a watermelon.
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May 7, 2015 18:13
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wateroverfire posted:Hmm what happens when we decide we're not so ideologically committed to hating inequality that we have to assert everything is terrible unless people are economically equal.. Yes, the United States is, in fact, a first world country.
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May 7, 2015 18:14
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euphronius posted:Omg your source is so hilarious I looked and didn't think they did but certainly healthcare should be considered in general.
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May 7, 2015 18:18
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RBC posted:why are you people legitimately arguing with others whose position is literally "gently caress the poor" an d are linking to milton friedman hobbyist websites I'm a big fan of Milton Friedman
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May 7, 2015 18:22
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asdf32 posted:I looked and didn't think they did but certainly healthcare should be considered in general. Why.
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May 7, 2015 18:22
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Shayu posted:I'm a big fan of Milton Friedman same, i love his work he did with Crosby Stills Nash and Young
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May 7, 2015 18:24
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mods change my name to BIG FRIEDMAN FAN HERE tia
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May 7, 2015 18:24
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asdf32 posted:I looked and didn't think they did but certainly healthcare should be considered in general. But that's a function of the underlying costs of health care, not an indication of the increasing generosity of the welfare state. And there's a tension in your arguments. You oppose the minimum wage because the solution to these problems is a robust welfare state. Then you complain that welfare doesn't actually do anything and money can't solve these problems after all. Maybe the solution to poverty is unregulated capitalism? Edit:  your sourcequote:[i] The number of people in poverty is not influenced by the benefits received from federal, state or non-profit programs. For example, SNAP benefits are not included as income to a poor person when determining their poverty status. Gee, I wonder why a family receiving food stamps whose value aren't included in their income for determining if they're in poverty are still determined to be in poverty? I guess food stamps didn't do anything 
VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 18:44 on May 7, 2015 |
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May 7, 2015 18:38
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paranoid randroid posted:mods change my name to BIG FRIEDMAN FAN HERE tia isnt that already implied in your current name
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May 7, 2015 18:55
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wateroverfire posted:Hmm what happens when we decide we're not so ideologically committed to hating inequality that we have to assert everything is terrible unless people are economically equal.. Without reference to the moral or even economic problems with inequality, the inequality-adjusted human development index presents a more accurate representation of general quality of life by eliminating severe outliers.
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May 7, 2015 18:58
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Periodiko posted:Yes, the United States is, in fact, a first world country. Something quite contentous in D&D. In fact, according to the HDI, it's in the top 5 in terms of human development. Tezzor posted:Without reference to the moral or even economic problems with inequality, the inequality-adjusted human development index presents a more accurate representation of general quality of life by eliminating severe outliers. How does adjusting the HDI using the geni coefficient do that? You have to make a bridging assumption that inequality for its own sake, in a way that isn't captured in anything used to construct the index, is making people worse off. That is at the very least highly debatable. Also, I have to question the results of a methodology that ranks QOL in Greece higher than QOL in the US because LOL. archangelwar posted:The public purse you have vocally opposed. You are the one who used the language "no guarantees." Clearly when someone opposes free universal college education what they mean to say is no public programs for anyone ever except rich people. Clearly.
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May 7, 2015 19:11
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wateroverfire posted:How does adjusting the HDI using the geni coefficient do that? You have to make a bridging assumption that inequality for its own sake, in a way that isn't captured in anything used to construct the index, is making people worse off. That is at the very least highly debatable. http://hdr.undp.org/en/content/inequality-adjusted-human-development-index-ihdi The IHDI takes into account not only the average achievements of a country on health, education and income, but also how those achievements are distributed among its population by “discounting” each dimension’s average value according to its level of inequality. The IHDI is distribution-sensitive average level of HD. Two countries with different distributions of achievements can have the same average HDI value. Under perfect equality the IHDI is equal to the HDI, but falls below the HDI when inequality rises. The difference between the IHDI and HDI is the human development cost of inequality, also termed – the loss to human development due to inequality. The IHDI allows a direct link to inequalities in dimensions, it can inform policies towards inequality reduction, and leads to better understanding of inequalities across population and their contribution to the overall human development cost.
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May 7, 2015 19:13
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wateroverfire posted:Clearly when someone opposes free universal college education what they mean to say is no public programs for anyone ever except rich people. Clearly. So you are walking back on the no guarantees statement or did you just mean than in an abstract way that conveys no information so you can move the goalposts at will?
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May 7, 2015 19:25
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Shayu posted:I'm a big fan of Milton Friedman Friedman actually did do really good work on monetary policy and his explanation for the great depression as a caused by a financial crisis aggravated by poor decisions on the part of the federal reserve is still mainstream today. It's just that he became a right-wing pundit and Libertarians who worship him probably don't even understand what the words monetary policy means other than something about buying gold. But at least he had some good ideas like basic income.
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May 7, 2015 19:26
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wateroverfire posted:Something quite contentous in D&D. This is a stupid thing to say. quote:In fact, according to the HDI, it's in the top 5 in terms of human development. Of the first world nations, it's the richest, most populous, most powerful militarily and influential politically, with the greatest access to natural resources, and significant historical and geographical boons, as well as the country whose currency is the standard for the world. Pointing out that it's in the top 5 of the HDI is not really illustrating anything. It's not even like the US is absolutely killing it in HDI, it's getting beaten by a number of European nations, and it isn't doing notably better than the mean of western European nations. The richest most powerful country in the world is a first world country, and is competitive with other first world countries - that's about the sum of what you're pointing out. The point of examining inequality adjusted-HDI is that it illustrates a point germane to the issue, which is that the United States has huge inequality issues. This is important, because it means that a significant portion of the population are experiencing a much lower level of human development. The US is a first world country, but it's important to keep in mind that a significant number of citizens are going to receive much lower quality healthcare or access to education than that would indicate.
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May 7, 2015 19:38
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Periodiko posted:This is a stupid thing to say. yeah but $15 minimum wage is stupid
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May 7, 2015 23:51
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Inequality being good, I assume wateroverfire is fine with enhancing his inequality with other people by having his hands cut off.
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May 7, 2015 23:54
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agreed, it should be much higher. it's laughable that americans are so invested in spite for the poor that we have to set $15/hr as an ideal goal
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May 7, 2015 23:55
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what about that guy who started out at minimum wage back when it was $6.50/hour and he's been working all these years and it up to $15 now. that's almost $9 an hour he has earned in raises over the last decade or so. and then minimum wage gets bumped up to $15/hour. sorry dude, in 9 years you managed to go from minimum wage to minimum wage. that's pretty lovely and if you disagree that it is lovely, you would be a lovely employer.
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May 7, 2015 23:57
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Cole posted:yeah but $15 minimum wage is stupid Your right it should be $20.
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May 7, 2015 23:58
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sorry everybody, this dude had a lovely time under the old lovely laws, we'll need to keep the old lovely laws in place now for the sake of fairness
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May 7, 2015 23:58
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Cole posted:what about that guy who started out at minimum wage back when it was $6.50/hour and he's been working all these years and it up to $15 now. that's almost $9 an hour he has earned in raises over the last decade or so. and then minimum wage gets bumped up to $15/hour. This is retarded. He isn't making any less money. Oh but he can't claim to be superior to a whole lot of people because he makes the same amount of money as them, so horrible  .
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May 7, 2015 23:59
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Cole posted:what about that guy who started out at minimum wage back when it was $6.50/hour and he's been working all these years and it up to $15 now. that's almost $9 an hour he has earned in raises over the last decade or so. and then minimum wage gets bumped up to $15/hour. This would only happen in the case of malfeasance by employers, so agreed- 15 bucks an hour is only a stepping stone on the pathway to economic democracy.
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May 7, 2015 23:59
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Also I can't think of a single job in the entire loving world where the pay band runs from minimum to $15 an hour.
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May 8, 2015 00:00
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If you tie your self-worth and esteem to the amount of money you make you are hella hosed up imho. Maybe find something to like about yourself besides what someone is willing to pay you?
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May 8, 2015 00:02
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Sorry poor people, you'll have to continue living in poverty so we don't hurt Mr. Dumbfuck Sociopath's feefees.
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May 8, 2015 00:05
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Cole posted:what about that guy who started out at minimum wage back when it was $6.50/hour and he's been working all these years and it up to $15 now. that's almost $9 an hour he has earned in raises over the last decade or so. and then minimum wage gets bumped up to $15/hour. lol how much of a sociopath do you have to be to cite a dude barely staying ahead of inflation through hard work as a good thing and a reason people should be paid less
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May 8, 2015 00:06
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 my grandfather lived on a five dollar day, the problem with poor people today is that they're LAZY
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May 8, 2015 00:07
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Raising the minimum wage will cause a certain portion of the meth'ed out hill garbage to mewl. And this is a bad thing I guess.
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May 8, 2015 00:11
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my brothers died face down in the mud while getting paid minimum wage. if you raise the minimum wage, their sacrifice was for nothing
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May 8, 2015 00:12
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paragon1 posted:Also I can't think of a single job in the entire loving world where the pay band runs from minimum to $15 an hour. publix supermarket cake decorators max at $14.89/hour and they cross train people who make minimum bagging groceries to be cake decorators  Popular Thug Drink posted:lol how much of a sociopath do you have to be to cite a dude barely staying ahead of inflation through hard work as a good thing and a reason people should be paid less alright, then what should we do for the guy who has been working for almost a decade and is now getting paid what you wish minimum wage to be, and then minimum wage gets raised to that? regardless if your argument is "he won't be making less money!" it's a really lovely and demoralizing feeling to go from minimum wage, work nine years, and then you're back to minimum wage. i would be loving LIVID if that happened to me, and i'm sure a good portion of people would be too.
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May 8, 2015 00:14
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Minwage raise opponents: "Think of what you'll be costing the poor people!" Quickly followed by "I don't want to make the same as the poor people."
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May 8, 2015 00:15
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Poors getting paid for enjoying the luxury of mud bath spas. Disgusting.
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May 8, 2015 00:15
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I saw a woman using food stamps. There went my self esteem.
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May 8, 2015 00:16
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Cole posted:publix supermarket cake decorators max at $14.89/hour and they cross train people who make minimum bagging groceries to do cake decorators You're a loving idiot because companies will increase the wages and benefits of people to retain talent .
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May 8, 2015 00:17
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Cole posted:alright, then what should we do for the guy who has been working for almost a decade and is now getting paid what you wish minimum wage to be, and then minimum wage gets raised to that? regardless if your argument is "he won't be making less money!" it's a really lovely and demoralizing feeling to go from minimum wage, work nine years, and then you're back to minimum wage. Have you considered paragon1 posted:If you tie your self-worth and esteem to the amount of money you make you are hella hosed up imho. ? Or maybe ask for a raise.
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May 8, 2015 00:17
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Cole posted:publix supermarket cake decorators max at $14.89/hour and they cross train people who make minimum bagging groceries to be cake decorators Then he goes to his boss and says "Hey, pay me what 9 years experience is now worth, or I'll go to a job that does". He has a huge advantage to leverage in wage negotiations.
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May 8, 2015 00:19
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Look, if we raise the wages of workers that require minimal training, clearly the wages of workers that require some or extensive training will remain stagnant, as will the wages of experienced workers. That's simple eccconamics.
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May 8, 2015 00:19
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Cole posted:publix supermarket cake decorators max at $14.89/hour and they cross train people who make minimum bagging groceries to be cake decorators
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May 8, 2015 00:19
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