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Voyager I posted:When you talk like this you make it sound like you think Bernie actually has a measurable chance of winning either the candidacy or the election. As much as I agree with his rhetoric, we know this isn't going to happen. Bernie not having a chance doesn't make Hillary a good candidate, it's just another reason to drink.
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May 8, 2015 17:05
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Under the vegetable posted:That's not what I'm doing at all, but sure. Misrepresenting your opposition is very appropriate in a politics thread i guess. See it's stuff like this that is ridiculous. I'm definitely sure things will be measurably worse if republicans control the Senate the house the presidency and they also get to pick a couple of supreme court nominations
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May 8, 2015 17:15
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Under the vegetable posted:That's not what I'm doing at all, but sure. Misrepresenting your opposition is very appropriate in a politics thread i guess. Excuse me. But for lgbt rights basically she's a million times better than any republican. Excuse us for caring about being treated equal
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May 8, 2015 17:17
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"Man, Hillary and Bush, geez, they're both the same, man. I don't even know why I'm going to vote now that Bernie is out of the race." - a person who doesn't realize how bad things can get
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May 8, 2015 17:21
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Sgt. Anime Pederast posted:Excuse me. But for lgbt rights basically she's a million times better than any republican. Excuse us for caring about being treated equal I said almost as bad. I also fall under the lgbt umbrella. Excuse me for being a cocksucker who wants the best overall candidate for his country.
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May 8, 2015 17:28
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Zelder posted:"Man, Hillary and Bush, geez, they're both the same, man. I don't even know why I'm going to vote now that Bernie is out of the race." - a person who doesn't realize how bad things can get *next Scalia is sworn in* At least my conscience is clear 
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May 8, 2015 17:32
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Gravel Gravy posted:An indictment on the candidate or an indictment on the system? An indictment on the system's influence on the candidate? As someone already posted, I think a focus on a person's platform years ago is not really a good way to decide future performance. Environmental pressures inherent in any position is much more likely to mold someone's outlook than what they may have said out loud previously. There are huge exceptions here of course, but the most reliable means of influencing Clinton's positions are by making them as necessary as possible.
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May 8, 2015 17:34
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I don't think you're a cocksucker, I think you're saying something that everyone accepts (Bernie is a better candidate than Hillary, and would make an awesome president), leaving out one part (but because of the lack of name recognition, moneyed support, and support from the general DNC machine, he will not be getting the nomination), and then just being overly aggressive and dickish while making the same point over and over again.
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May 8, 2015 17:35
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Under the vegetable posted:
Your sentence contradicts itself. Do you earnestly think that Obama has done what McCain; by all means a centrist compared to the current Republican line up, would have done?
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May 8, 2015 17:36
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If McCain was president, hell, I'd probably be currently fighting in Iran. And I'm not even in the military!
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May 8, 2015 17:37
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Venom Snake posted:Your sentence contradicts itself. "Bomb, Bomb, Bomb Iran" is centrist?
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May 8, 2015 17:37
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President Paul will keep your phone records safe from King Joffrey. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tGXUoWExB8
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May 8, 2015 17:38
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I seriously don't get what's so hard about this. Go ahead and vote for Bernie in the primary. There are nowhere near enough Bernie fans out there to legitimately threaten Hillary in the primary, but there might be just enough to create a buzz around some of his positions. There's a nonzero chance that such a buzz will prompt Hillary to pick up on some of those positions, though whether or not that would be just hot air and pandering remains to be seen. In the overwhelmingly likely event that Hillary wins the primary, vote for her over whatever lunatic the GOP puts up because no matter how far right you think Hillary is she's far to the left of any republican on many issues and SCOTUS seats are at stake. Strategic voting, what a concept! Rhesus Pieces fucked around with this message at 17:41 on May 8, 2015 |
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May 8, 2015 17:39
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Under the vegetable posted:I said almost as bad. I also fall under the lgbt umbrella. Excuse me for being a cocksucker who wants the best overall candidate for his country. The problem isn't that you want Bernie, because everyone in the thread wants Bernie. The problem is that you're being a huge rear end in a top hat to everyone who accepts the obvious reality that we can't have Bernie. EDIT: to be clear, being frustrated that Hillary is the best we can get is okay. Being a fucker that people are going to vote for her because she's still going to be the best candidate in the general is not. Rhesus Pieces posted:Strategic voting, what a concept! *Votes for Nader* *Loses child in Iraq* Voyager I fucked around with this message at 17:55 on May 8, 2015 |
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May 8, 2015 17:51
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Spun Dog posted:"Bomb, Bomb, Bomb Iran" is centrist? McCain was never a centrist in a "has many positions that are middle-of-the-road" sense, but was considered a centrist in a "has some positions that are far to one side and some positions that are far to the other side" sense. McCain (c.2008) better on environmentalism, immigration, native rights, scientific apportionment and a few other things than many (c. 2008) Democrats. Many respected him for McCain-Feingold. Meanwhile, he was worse on foreign policy and various culture-wars issues than many (c. 2008) Republicans. The radicalization of the Republican Party since then obviously changes this dynamic. PupsOfWar fucked around with this message at 17:57 on May 8, 2015 |
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May 8, 2015 17:53
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Hope for the Bern, prepare the Hill-dawg
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May 8, 2015 17:56
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PupsOfWar posted:McCain was never a centrist in a "has many positions that are middle-of-the-road" sense, but was considered a centrist in a "has some positions that are far to one side and some positions that are far to the other side" sense. OK, I'll accept that in a "We're through the looking glass already" context he could be considered moderate. P.S. "Just build the danged fence!" Spun Dog fucked around with this message at 18:02 on May 8, 2015 |
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May 8, 2015 18:00
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Rhesus Pieces posted:I seriously don't get what's so hard about this. We aren't allowed to empty quote, right? I expect Bernie will be out by the time our primary rolls around, but yeah. He's gonna get my vote then because his infrastructure proposal is good for my family and his VA plan is good for me. Hopefully Hillary will grab those since both are in line with mainstream Dem opinion. Then I'm going to bust my rear end day in and day out to make sure Hillary wins and Bush doesn't get within a thousand miles of the White House. People grumbling about "Bill was practically a republican!" Are ignoring that no, Bill was absolutely nothing like the GOP. After the Oklahoma City Bombing the GOP tried to push through the ideas that make up the Patriot Act and Bill killed it dead. When they got their second bite at the apple they went with it and then used it to literally sent death squads to kidnap and kill people in the dead of night, and the kidnapped ones were sent without trial to a secret torture dungeon where we were raping people to death. You think the brother of the man who did that won't bring it back? When he has flat out said his brother is advising him on Middle East issues? Drones are a loving mercy compared to what Bush did. Whining "oh but she's just as corporatist as Bush" ignores what was really going on and where the threats lie. Work the primary to push the party where you want it. That's what the primary is for, to sort out the candidates that will beat represent you. But don't ever forget what is really at stake here.
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May 8, 2015 18:01
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The reason poo poo is so hosed is that the Democrats are somewhat centrist, but the Republicans are so insanely far to the right the gulf between them is huge.Spun Dog posted:"Bomb, Bomb, Bomb Iran" is centrist? They key word is "comparatively"
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May 8, 2015 18:05
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Voyager I posted:The problem isn't that you want Bernie, because everyone in the thread wants Bernie. The problem is that you're being a huge rear end in a top hat to everyone who accepts the obvious reality that we can't have Bernie. I'm unironically ronpauling for Bernie because it's going to take that to get him to win the nomination. I'm not concerned about my reputation as an electoral prognosticator and I don't understand this "well I'm going to vote for him in the primary like everyone around me because we all agree he's the better candidate but by god he will LOSE this thing" attitude.
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May 8, 2015 18:23
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jarofpiss posted:I'm unironically ronpauling for Bernie because it's going to take that to get him to win the nomination. I'm not concerned about my reputation as an electoral prognosticator and I don't understand this "well I'm going to vote for him in the primary like everyone around me because we all agree he's the better candidate but by god he will LOSE this thing" attitude. It's called "having any sense of American politics and knowing that Sanders isn't going to win enough delegates to get nominated." Or, the shorter version: not being insane and/or a moron.
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May 8, 2015 18:25
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jarofpiss posted:I'm unironically ronpauling for Bernie because it's going to take that to get him to win the nomination. I'm not concerned about my reputation as an electoral prognosticator and I don't understand this "well I'm going to vote for him in the primary like everyone around me because we all agree he's the better candidate but by god he will LOSE this thing" attitude. Believing harder in something that will not happen doesn't make you better than other people. Pouring everything into a Bernie campaign because making it more successful puts more pressure on Hillary to respect some of the espoused positions is one thing, but I doubt even Sanders expects anything more from his campaign than that.
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May 8, 2015 18:26
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Fried Chicken posted:Work the primary to push the party where you want it. That's what the primary is for, to sort out the candidates that will beat represent you. But don't ever forget what is really at stake here. Primary contests aren't for allowing people insight and input into the candidates' positions, nor are they meant to allow us to collectively by our vote choose the one that best represents us (in a compromise). They're a dog-and-pony show put on by the oligarchs to allow the proles the illusion of influence and choice. I'm a bit baffled if Bernie is sincere in his belief that entering the contest for the Democratic nomination will have much meaning. Indeed, and especially as far as the Democratic Party is concerned, the primary is never to be considered a place to have a robust debate (unless, as in 2008, it is politically expedient to have pretend robustness, as if Hillary and Obama were substantially different*). For example, we continuously see today, almost 40 years after the fact, gnashing of teeth over the Kennedy/Carter primary. It's similar to how the party hand-wringers ring the klaxons and gush tears over McGovern or Nader anytime anybody suggests we ought to consider putting up a fight backing an actual left-of-center candidate instead of just vomiting out whatever moderate right-winger pretending to be a centrist stands a chance of beating the whackjobs in the Republican party. In fairness, if the goal is merely to win elections in the politics equivalent of a pissing contest that's not a bad strategy; if the goal is to actually get policy that is good, it's asinine. The landscape today is far different from what it was in 2008. Then Hillary and Barack were both acceptable to the establishment; hell in many ways they were desirable. Today there is no way in hell Bernie is an acceptable candidate for the people who actually hold power. We'll see if he's able to accomplish anything, but I wouldn't cleave to any hopes were I a Bernie supporter. * One thing that always baffled me back then, as an Obama supporter, in these forums and others, was how people actually thought there was significant space between Hillary and Barack, or that somehow Barack was an anti-establishment "insurgent" candidate that the oligarch-backers-of-Hillary would hate to see nominated.
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May 8, 2015 18:27
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Kalman posted:It's called "having any sense of American politics and knowing that Sanders isn't going to win enough delegates to get nominated." The true path to a better world is defeatism.
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May 8, 2015 18:27
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Feather posted:Primary contests aren't for allowing people insight and input into the candidates' positions, nor are they meant to allow us to collectively by our vote choose the one that best represents us (in a compromise). They're a dog-and-pony show put on by the oligarchs to allow the proles the illusion of influence and choice. It's strange then that the proles don't actually vote or pay attention to the primaries.
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May 8, 2015 18:28
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Feather posted:Primary contests aren't for allowing people insight and input into the candidates' positions, nor are they meant to allow us to collectively by our vote choose the one that best represents us (in a compromise). They're a dog-and-pony show put on by the oligarchs to allow the proles the illusion of influence and choice. I'm a bit baffled if Bernie is sincere in his belief that entering the contest for the Democratic nomination will have much meaning. This sort of oligarchical overlord conspiracy overlooks the fact that the kind of people with the ambition to go for the presidency tend to not be so great at things like sharing power and keeping their egos in check. taqueso posted:The true path to a better world is defeatism. Voting idealism over pragmatism sure worked great in 2000 and the world is definitely a better place because of it. Voyager I fucked around with this message at 18:33 on May 8, 2015 |
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May 8, 2015 18:29
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Kalman posted:It's called "having any sense of American politics and knowing that Sanders isn't going to win enough delegates to get nominated." You understand that campaigning for this man as a lost cause isn't much of a motivating strategy, right? Like going out and talking to people and explaining his positions and then closing with a "by the way he won't be elected so don't be an insane moron and think he will be" is kind of dumb. I understand this shitbag forum feeds on cynicism and a need to be always right, but there is a place for real idealism in this stage of his campaign and it's poisonous to stand at the starting line telling everyone it's not worth running the race. Post whatever you want in this forum I guess, but if you plan on pulling the lever for Bernie in the primary have the decency to have a little optimism when you're talking to people who don't waste their time arguing about this poo poo with goons.
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May 8, 2015 18:30
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Fried Chicken posted:Work the primary to push the party where you want it. That's what the primary is for, to sort out the candidates that will beat represent you. But don't ever forget what is really at stake here. While we're at it, vote in every primary you are legally able to, not just in presidential primaries. Also be sure to vote in local podunk races and off-year municipal elections where like 700 people bother to show up and drag those leftward with your much less diluted ballot. What you shouldn't do is volunteer and get all amped up for Saint Bernie only to pout and stamp your feet and swear off politics and the Democratic Party when he more than likely does not make it past Super Tuesday. This does less than no good because it gives Hillary the cover to reach rightward since the left base is obviously a bunch of worthless babies who can't be counted on for anything.
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May 8, 2015 18:30
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Legit do not give presidential candidates more than a few hundred dollars. There's a reason the law only allows so much during the primary and during the general. The lawmakers knew about mental disabilities that led people to give everything they ever earned to get their little lord elected.
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May 8, 2015 18:31
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On the other hand, I'm going to give the max to HRC 
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May 8, 2015 18:32
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I think some people just need to accept that you can't vote away capitalism. There is no means aside from waiting for some form of societal collapse to begin fundamentally changing the system, not even Bernie could do much more than Hillary in that regard should he win. We are all going to die under the same hierarchical system we were born under, it's not going away in our generation, and taken in that context Hillary isn't so bad. Get excited for Bernie but at least respect the man's beliefs and be positive rather than negatively try to tear Hillary down.
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May 8, 2015 18:34
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Wheeee posted:I think some people just need to accept that you can't vote away capitalism. There is no means aside from waiting for some form of societal collapse to begin fundamentally changing the system, not even Bernie could do much more than Hillary in that regard should he win. this sounds like a better argument for accelerationism than voting for hillary
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May 8, 2015 18:38
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Feather posted:I'm a bit baffled if Bernie is sincere in his belief that entering the contest for the Democratic nomination will have much meaning. One possibility would be that the guy with 25 years of national-level political experience knows something about the actual workings of the primary process that you don't.
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May 8, 2015 18:39
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jarofpiss posted:this sounds like a better argument for accelerationism than voting for hillary I agree, taking away what little the working classes have is truly the path towards a better tomorrow. Like are your two choices "literally ronpauling for Bernie" or "gently caress it, a better society will rise from the ashes"?
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May 8, 2015 18:39
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Voyager I posted:I agree, taking away what little the working classes have is truly the path towards a better tomorrow. i'm not an accelerationist, i was pointing out his defeatism wrt voting.
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May 8, 2015 18:41
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Voyager I posted:Voting idealism over pragmatism sure worked great in 2000 and the world is definitely a better place because of it. Did you vote for Bill Bradley?
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May 8, 2015 18:43
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jarofpiss posted:i'm not an accelerationist, i was pointing out his defeatism wrt voting. I just want to reiterate that believing harder doesn't make you a better person than a pragmatist unless we discover a philosopher's stone that transmutes idealism into political change.
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May 8, 2015 18:44
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taqueso posted:The true path to a better world is defeatism. That's right you should never come to conclusions based on evidence
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May 8, 2015 18:45
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jarofpiss posted:You understand that campaigning for this man as a lost cause isn't much of a motivating strategy, right? Like going out and talking to people and explaining his positions and then closing with a "by the way he won't be elected so don't be an insane moron and think he will be" is kind of dumb. I understand this shitbag forum feeds on cynicism and a need to be always right, but there is a place for real idealism in this stage of his campaign and it's poisonous to stand at the starting line telling everyone it's not worth running the race. You keep posting the same thing over and over again. Nobody here honestly likes HRC more than Bernie, you are arguing with someone who does not exist.
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May 8, 2015 18:46
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Ronpauling can only lead to heartbreak and bitterness. Learn to see the gourmet mustard on the poo poo sandwich. It will be amazing how some people are going to lose their poo poo over Clinton and even more amazing to watch her go full metal Nixon on those shitfuckers in Congress. Also, don't forget that Clarence Thomas was appointed in 1991. He is only 66 years old. He will probably be there another 20 years. It only took GHWB one term to leave us that turd.
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May 8, 2015 18:47
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