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Venom Snake posted:maybe we forgive the left wing richies like FDR because they try to give back and give voice to the working class, makes u think FDR only did it because he didn't want the labor unions and the communists burning everything down.
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May 9, 2015 01:29
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paragon1 posted:FDR only did it because he didn't want the labor unions and the communists burning everything down. yes and
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May 9, 2015 01:41
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wateroverfire posted:LET US ENGAGE IN HYPERBOLE TO TEST THE VALIDITY OF THIS PROPOSITION WITH A THOUGHT EXPERIMENT.
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May 9, 2015 01:54
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euphronius posted:You have to eventually work for tanf and you must have worked in the past to get ssdi. We agree that there currently exist poor people who benefit from these programs, right? Those people will be harmed by price inflation, and therefore by a significant minimum wage increase. You don't need to have ever worked to get ssdi, you're thinking of ssi.
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May 9, 2015 01:55
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Venom Snake posted:yes and Well you aren't exactly super left wing if you only do left wing things out of fear people will take all your stuff, are you? Clearly what we need is more labor organizers and communists threatening to burn everything.
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May 9, 2015 01:55
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Unless you can tell me the exact optimal percentage of government expenditure 'school spending' should be at, all schools must be defunded - a moron
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May 9, 2015 01:57
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The fundamental stupidity and malevolence of those opposed to the minimum wage masks a basically good point: increasing the minimum wage too substantially cuts into profits which the owners will then attempt to recoup by cutting costs and raising prices. A better solution is to share 100% of the profits among the employees and to abolish the owners as traditionally understood.
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May 9, 2015 02:01
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paragon1 posted:Well you aren't exactly super left wing if you only do left wing things out of fear people will take all your stuff, are you? Clearly what we need is more labor organizers and communists threatening to burn everything. this isn't the protest thread, idiot.
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May 9, 2015 02:05
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The biggest problem facing the nonworking poor is the high prices caused by the greed of workers wanting to pay for their kids to see a doctor. You know what would really help the non-working poor, the price savings we could get if we bring back slavery.
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May 9, 2015 02:14
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VitalSigns posted:The biggest problem facing the nonworking poor is the high prices caused by the greed of workers wanting to pay for their kids to see a doctor. im down
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May 9, 2015 02:15
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If we increase wages from the point where they are dwarfed by other costs of doing business to the point where they dwarf everything else do you think there would be an increase in prices? Makes ya think.
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May 9, 2015 02:21
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Venom Snake posted:this isn't the protest thread, idiot. i'm not constrained by your petty bourgeoisie thread boundaries Venom Snake.
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May 9, 2015 02:55
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paragon1 posted:Clearly what we need is more labor organizers and communists threatening to burn everything. Pretty much.
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May 9, 2015 03:30
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JeffersonClay posted:We agree that there currently exist poor people who benefit from these programs, right? Those people will be harmed by price inflation, and therefore by a significant minimum wage increase. No it's ssdi you need to work for. Do you have any evidence inflation would equal or exceed the value of increasing wages.
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May 9, 2015 03:36
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RBC posted:i honestly would post more, but i have to work in the coal mines where my phone doesnt get a signal This, but for real. wateroverfire posted:That sounds pretty reasonable. There are effects to consider, though, in addition to the income effect from paying people more. What happens when the costs at each layer of the supply chain leading up to you also go up to accomodate the wage hike? Your suppliers have suppliers have suppliers, etc, and all of them are going to feel a wage floor that raises labor costs for like 45% of workers. You will probably find that all sorts of things from materials to transport cost more once everything shakes out, and you may find that as many other businesses pass compounded costs along people don't have as much extra money to drive extra business to you. This brings up a good point. The effects on a min wage increase would reverberate through my supply chain to some extent. In my particular industry all of my materials are raw commodities from overseas. Other industries, however have different inputs and i think there would be very definite winners and losers based on the nature of a particular business. My customers are also not very price sensitive. Our candy is the most expensive non-chocolate candy at Whole Foods. The people who are buying it probably aren't looking at the price too closely. Once again, other industries will be impacted differently. We may see a push by a range of companies to drive products upmarket as the increasing cost of of producing eats up the small margin that goods sold to low-income consumers typically have. Voyager I posted:Thanks for the great post. The fact that one of your employees was against a loving $4.00 pay raise because it meant his perceived inferiors might also end up on the same level as him is loving terrifying. What is wrong with mankind? He wasn't so much against a raise as he was against the principle of the thing. Anyhow, mankind are animals who use those around them for context to judge the value of what they have and use the value of what they have to determine the value of who they are. It's pretty natural, irrational, and maybe just a little terrifying. That's how we get poo poo like identity politics. JeffersonClay posted:Another group that would unambiguously lose from an increase in the minimum wage (and a concurrent increase in prices) are poor people outside the labor force. Yeah, this is the disappointing thing. A minimum wage increase would be fantastic for some people, but it won't solve any social problems. if we really want to rein in the widening income gap then we need to pass a comprehensive package with standard of living guarantees for retirees, the disabled, and the indigent. Throw in some prison reform, gender equality legislation, and make higher education more accessible. Garnish with a minimum wage increase and serve to someone hungry.
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May 9, 2015 03:49
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Why is the current minimum wage always the magic number? Every time we talk about raising it, it's "no everything is fine, if you raise it all the horrible calamities that didn't happen all the other times will totally happen". Should we go back to pre-recession $5.15, or do we have some evidence that Obama lucked onto the perfect equilibrium of maximum benefit? E: Oh we're back to "full communism would solve all these problems, so let's abolish labor laws and wait until the revolution". Hey, you know what's a great thing for the poor? Welfare. Way better than the minimum wage. You know what will never get through a Republican congress? Welfare.
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May 9, 2015 03:51
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VitalSigns posted:Why is the current minimum wage always the magic number? Because businesses will whine and the average person knows jack poo poo about economics? Also the crab barrel.
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May 9, 2015 03:55
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euphronius posted:No it's ssdi you need to work for. You're right, you don't need to work to get ssi, and you do need to have previously worked to get ssdi. More to the point, both groups would be harmed by inflation, as neither group earns wage income. As to your latter question, anyone who does not earn wages does not directly benefit from the minimum wage and thus must be harmed by inflation. I think we should raise the minimum wage. But the minimum wage is to economics what charter schools are to education; a solution that helps people at the margins of oppression most, at the expense of those who are most oppressed, with the great advantage over better solutions that it is politically possible and maybe, in moderate doses, better than the status quo.
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May 9, 2015 05:35
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Here's an honest question: If minimum wage increases work as planned, they will result in higher consumer spending that "heats up" the economy and increases inflation. Does opposition to increasing the minimum wage in part come from fear of inflation among the non-productive rentier class, whose holdings in bonds, savings, and real estate might be devalued by inflation? That is, is there a section of the population that is against the working poor earning a living wage, because it might reduce the income they earn from just existing and parasitically collecting rents on everybody else? I'm aware this is a loaded question.
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May 9, 2015 05:49
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Is there any evidence that the minimum wage has contributed in any significant way to inflation? Lowering the the minimum wage by 30% or so in the last 50 years sure didn't reduce prices any. And what's the mechanism for that: minimum wage doesn't increase the money supply, that money comes from somewhere else in the economy (corporate profits). Minimum wage doesn't reduce the supply of goods: people who have more money to spend are going to stimulate production in an economy hobbled by slack demand like ours is now. This seems like a concern troll. If controlling inflation is the most important thing, why are we attacking the minimum wage and not the policies the central bank has been using to fight deflation and prop up asset prices. Why don't we just back off on those policies a bit to even it out rather than refusing to raise the minimum wage. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 06:04 on May 9, 2015 |
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May 9, 2015 06:01
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VitalSigns posted:Is there any evidence that the minimum wage has contributed in any significant way to inflation? Lowering the the minimum wage by 30% or so in the last 50 years sure didn't reduce prices any. It's absolutely a concern troll. There isn't a coherent economic argument against raising the minimum wage, it should already have been done. Sure, full communism would be better but increasing the wage is actually possible right now.
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May 9, 2015 06:12
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Zeitgueist posted:It's absolutely a concern troll. There isn't a coherent economic argument against raising the minimum wage, it should already have been done. One I've heard that I don't agree with but is alright is that it'll grow the economy which is bad because it'll lead to wider environmental destruction and the human cost is nothing compared to the damage we do to the rest of the planet through our society. I didn't agree with it and thought it was kinda dumb but it's at least coherent.
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May 9, 2015 06:16
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Our central bank has been fighting deflation since 2008. If it's true that the minimum wage is inflationary (no proof of this has been offered) then that sounds like an even better reason to do it so the central bank won't have to work as hard.
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May 9, 2015 06:18
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VitalSigns posted:Is there any evidence that the minimum wage has contributed in any significant way to inflation? Lowering the the minimum wage by 30% or so in the last 50 years sure didn't reduce prices any. Again, this all depends on the scale of minimum wage since it really comes down to total dollars increased. And as we went over, that impact goes up exponentially. For small minimum wage increases there is no evidence or reason to think inflation would be large. But there is for a large increase. There is no reason to think the central bank needs help fighting inflation given that it's sitting in a position where it can literally print money. EvanSchenck posted:Here's an honest question: If minimum wage increases work as planned, they will result in higher consumer spending that "heats up" the economy and increases inflation. Does opposition to increasing the minimum wage in part come from fear of inflation among the non-productive rentier class, whose holdings in bonds, savings, and real estate might be devalued by inflation? That is, is there a section of the population that is against the working poor earning a living wage, because it might reduce the income they earn from just existing and parasitically collecting rents on everybody else? The rich are inevitably well insulated against inflation, more so than the poor/retired on fixed incomes. So not really. Business owners don't like it because they don't want to pay the higher wages themselves, not because they're worried about overall inflation. I'll add that I certainly don't think overall inflation is much of a problem, especially in the context of the economy today. Jefferson gave all the best reasons to care about inflation earlier - it hurts the (usually poor) demographic of people outside the workforce on fixed incomes and removes some of the benefits of the increased wages. Zeitgueist posted:It's absolutely a concern troll. There isn't a coherent economic argument against raising the minimum wage, it should already have been done. There is no coherent argument for communism.
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May 9, 2015 13:41
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I do just want to step back for a second and remind people of the economic context we're in:  So there are massive differences in unemployment by race and by demographic. When people like me react negatively to a proposal of an unusually large minimum wage increase this is the reason. Minimum wage takes those demographics that are most unemployed, most outsourced and most mechanized and makes them even less attractive to employers. Literally the reason we got here (high inequality low wages) is because those things already decreased demand for labor in these demographics. Minimum wage exacerbates the primary problem: low demand. Does it make sense that small increases in the past haven't led to significant detectable problems? Yep. But that doesn't mean than an order of magnitude larger impact won't create issues. This is literally a policy that's been purposely used for discrimination in the past. And there is plenty of reason to think it's not exactly ideal policy today. asdf32 fucked around with this message at 13:59 on May 9, 2015 |
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May 9, 2015 13:52
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Ugh unemployment is so high now in 2010, thanks Obama Obama's $7.25 minimum wage is going to destroy the economy, and unemployment will skyrocket in the next 5 years I guarantee it. Keep it at $5.15 to help the poor.
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May 9, 2015 13:54
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VitalSigns posted:Ugh unemployment is so high now in 2010, thanks Obama Fixed. No it won't. $15 is the discussion.
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May 9, 2015 13:59
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asdf32 posted:Fixed. He's referring to an analogous situation where the same arguments were made you loving intellectual child.
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May 9, 2015 14:01
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If you're so worried about inflation, why don't you care about the biggest cause of inflation: the central bank's explicitly inflationary policy.
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May 9, 2015 14:02
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VitalSigns posted:If you're so worried about inflation, why don't you care about the biggest cause of inflation: the central bank's explicitly inflationary policy. I take it you just don't read posts anymore.
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May 9, 2015 14:04
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asdf32 posted:I do just want to step back for a second and remind people of the economic context we're in: What is the ideal policy?
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May 9, 2015 14:05
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asdf32 posted:I take it you just don't read posts anymore. You didn't answer the question. Should the Federal Reserve stop fighting deflation? According to your argument, it should. Unless you don't actually care about inflation except as a means to attack the minimum wage (not that you've presented any proof that the minimum wage causes inflation somehow, even though it doesn't increase the money supply or reduce the supply of goods, but whatever)
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May 9, 2015 14:08
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Good morning intellectual children.
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May 9, 2015 14:09
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Double trouble.
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May 9, 2015 14:10
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Tezzor posted:What is the ideal policy? The US has a lot of room to improve economic fundamentals. First, re-balance the tax burden so its actually progressive. Next, make further investments in infrastructure and basic research which has the benefit of directly spurring demand in the labor market (infrastructure particularly hires lots of people in low wage demographics). More investment in state/community colleges to improve access and drive down higher education costs. Address healthcare (huge question-mark how to do this though) because healthcare is eating the economy from the inside out. EDIT: I'll add another paragraph to say that all my posting on economics here is consistent. The 3 most important things are human capital, physical capital and employment. The above policy falls out of that directly. Research and infrastructure are physical capital, education is human capital and reducing deep cycles of poverty ties to both employment and human capital. That's my list. Everything I listed has or is happening to a certain extent. VitalSigns posted:You didn't answer the question. I don't care a ton about inflation period. It's not a primary economic metric and is only important to the extent it impacts primary economic metrics (real life). Among the ways inflation impacts real life are the things mentioned earlier, or generally it's a problem when it's excessive or unpredictable. Minimum wage directly increases costs of production and (something you know when you want too), transfers some wealth from rich to poor where they spend more, thus decreasing savings rates and increasing the velocity of money. asdf32 fucked around with this message at 14:35 on May 9, 2015 |
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May 9, 2015 14:15
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i dont even know what asdf's position is anymore
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May 9, 2015 14:45
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Actually, I will agree that raising the minimum wage is not an ideal policy response. We should be instituting a universal guaranteed minimum income instead. In don't think there is any argument against raising the minimum wage, to which instituting a GMI is not an even better response. Takes burden off employers, increases worker bargaining power, etc. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 16:06 on May 9, 2015 |
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May 9, 2015 16:04
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Actually, I will agree that raising the minimum wage is not an ideal policy response. A policy curiously beloved of some of the left and Milton Friedman simultaneously.
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May 9, 2015 16:05
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Disinterested posted:A policy curiously beloved of some of the left and Milton Friedman simultaneously. It's one of those ideas that's so good everyone who thinks about it rationally ends up supporting it -- and so inherently controversial that almost no one thinks about it rationally.
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May 9, 2015 16:07
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Is the minimum wage $15 yet and does that mean it costs like six cents more for a hamburger now due to crazy price hikes
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May 9, 2015 16:11
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