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The well of self-indulgence is dug deep in this village.
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May 9, 2015 23:46
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Pittsburgh Lambic posted:
Yeah... This is the douchiest book I've ever seen.
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May 9, 2015 23:53
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STRETCH GOAL SPOTLIGHT
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gently caress Ryan North. Jesus Christ I'm so glad I didn't give money to this douche.
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May 10, 2015 00:42
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Pittsburgh Lambic posted:Additionally, some of the stretch goals were to print additional copies of To Be or Not To Be and ship them to various schools, universities, and libraries. And every time I think Ryan North can't disgust me more... What the gently caress are school kids supposed to get out of this monstrosity?
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May 10, 2015 01:32
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loving.... Ryan North. Just... Ryan North. 
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May 10, 2015 06:27
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Really though, I've been lurking here out of morbid curiosity and to give the material a chance, thankfully without actually having to buy the app for myself. So I'm going to take my earlier, much more snide comment up this page and expand on it a bit. Brevity is the soul of wit but I'm afraid I'm all out of cleverness so I'll just be frank. I've had a good chuckle at some Dinosaur Comics, even if I don't actively seek them out. But this and Yorick are not nearly as funny as they think they are. And Ryan North seems to have a much higher opinion of his work than, I feel, may be warranted. Perhaps when the kickstarter was just getting started he really did think this project would be worth sending to schools as supplementary educational material. In retrospect I can't imagine why, but that's the risk of having a big head and counting chickens before their hatched. At least he hammers home the point about Hamlet's fatal flaw. That's certainly informative, and most likely funny, though the bulk of the work has sucked out my ability to feel amusement and delight from reading To Be or Not To Be. I'm looking back at some early responses in the LP and how relatively optimistic some are, even chiding people for being immediately dour on To Be or Not to Be, including Pittsburgh Lambic, the one person here who actually has experience with the game! After all, that's why he's LPing it. That was a more naive, innocent time for this thread. Happy days, those. On the topic of the stream, well, it might've been fun to participate in, I dunno. I mean you can't actually watch it without cringing, but it was probably a "you had to be there" sort of thing. Judging by comments around the internet, Mr. North has his fans and there's at least some people out there who thought this was hilarious and not, in fact, a tiresomely twee exercise in self-indulgence from a man who is reasonably funny, but again not as funny as he thinks he is. A bit like Carrie Bradshaw, really.
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May 10, 2015 09:23
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Hitlers Gay Secret posted:I want to see how this goes off the rails.  It doesn't go far past-me, it doesn't go far at all.
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May 10, 2015 09:29
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He gave away free copies of his thing to schools and this is why you're all so mad?
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May 10, 2015 10:25
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dangerdoom volvo posted:He gave away free copies of his thing to schools and this is why you're all so mad?
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May 10, 2015 11:53
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Well when you put it that way he's practically a monster.
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May 10, 2015 12:00
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Ryan North personally gave me a free copy of Poor Yorick (TCAF is fun and free and has many actually funny and talented artists! Come today!). We've pretty much exhausted that book, it seems. The book version of To Be Or Not To Be is ridiculously thick  . I'm guessing there's a shitload of Ophelia pandering remaining.
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May 10, 2015 16:03
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One stretch goal that I forgot to mention is the making of a sequel to this gamebook. Ryan North is now in the process of writing it, and tells us that the title will be Romeo And/Or Juliet.Decoy Badger posted:The book version of To Be Or Not To Be is ridiculously thick To Be or Not To Be has a little under 500 individual scenes, and Ophelia is a big chunk of those. Per the votes taken before yesterday's foray into madness, we're going to dive right into her story from the beginning! quote:
The achievement unlock screen has a little element of randomness to it; the right-hand trumpeter has several different variations. Some are better than others. It looks like Ophelia was already hard at work on her central heating idea before Porkchop Weebottoms barged in on her in the last playthrough. Is she going to send Laertes away and keep at her work? Pittsburgh Lambic fucked around with this message at 04:18 on Jun 5, 2015 |
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May 10, 2015 17:58
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okay maybe I'm the dumb one but I don't get it. Why Air-Conditioning of all things? Let him in
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May 10, 2015 18:00
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Because she didn't study capital-H History and doesn't know central heating by hot water in pipes was already invented by the ancient Greeks. But history isn't STEM so girls shouldn't major in it. Tell him we're busy.
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May 10, 2015 18:12
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Explode Laertes.
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May 10, 2015 18:13
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The worst part of that "performance" is that they had plenty of opportunity to do some neat improv, but that narrator was really terrible. He reminds me of a Dungeon Master who just wants the heroes to see what an awesome story he wrote without them doing anything. Tell him you're busy.
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May 10, 2015 18:43
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I hate women.
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May 10, 2015 19:31
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Might as well be civil. Let him in.
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May 10, 2015 22:02
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Huh, I remember reading this at a friend's house a few years ago and found it pretty amusing! Started off as Ophelia and got a lot of endings. The "dead-end" nature of things didn't bother me since I wasn't expecting the book to go too into depth whenever I actively went against the rails. Let him in
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May 11, 2015 04:12
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Arbitrary Coin posted:Huh, I remember reading this at a friend's house a few years ago and found it pretty amusing! Started off as Ophelia and got a lot of endings. The "dead-end" nature of things didn't bother me since I wasn't expecting the book to go too into depth whenever I actively went against the rails. Except branching paths is kind of the whole point of a CYOA, even if you are basing things off an established literature you can't just make every single option a game over other than the canon one, I admit that for obvious reasons not EVERY decision can lead to a different ending there needs to be at a good number of routes that have go to different locations (and no having multiples characters all having a linear route doesn't count). Also I'm guessing Ophilia as a lot of stuff because it's probably easier to be a bit more creative with her route, ghost dad does one thing and leaves the plot, there is not much you can do with him, and Hamlet plot is incredibly layed out, Ophelia has more flexibility (though from OP says Hamlet still has slightly more than she does) Also I think people are being to harsh on the books humor, it's for 12-15 year olds it's apparent that what they find funny we'd role our eyes at.
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May 11, 2015 05:15
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Actually it's about ethics in choosing your own adventure.
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May 11, 2015 09:20
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Yeah, I suspect that, were I reading it on my own, I'd go down a couple paths, skim past some of the lamer content, and probably have some fun with it before setting it down again for a while. I doubt I'd actually get through all of it, but it seems like it would be nice enough to flip through when I felt like light reading. Then again, I actually like Ryan North. No, this really isn't much of a game (or at least it isn't yet, the character select screen is still the only true branching path we've had, but I still have hope), and a few of the endings were pretty lame, but a lot of the classic CYOAs were just as bad about that poo poo (as are some of the Choice Of... games), and I think it's largely a matter of expectation. Mostly this is just a reasonably clever book by a fairly talented writer who badly overreached (kickstarter will do that) and really could have used a better editor. Enjoy it for what it is, or don't (lord knows this wouldn't be SA without about a little scorn), but it's not a complete trainwreck (unlike that play). I'm not sure it really works as an LP (too much railroading, though the same can be said for most of the Choice Of games), but the approach this thread has taken has done a lot to suck all the joy and life out of it, starting with an OP that more or less said "I hate this author and the webcomics community he stands for. This is going to suck." Silly humor (lame, trite, or mannered as North's may sometimes be) really can't survive in an atmosphere of cynical nitpicking and I'd rather this thread didn't get too bitter.
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May 11, 2015 09:54
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You're right, but mostly I'm not feeling the authorial voice. It definitely comes off on the smug side, which helps distract from its actual merits as a comedy CYOA. That and I agree that it does feel like actually voting on paths is a bit futile, as this is sort of a "point in general direction, explore choices" kind of deal. The LPer definitely sounds like a disappointed customer and I'm not going to begrudge him that. After all, it's his opinion and he's the one bothering to put this stuff together, there's no point in trying to shame him for not appreciating Ryan North enough. Maybe the Ophelia path is a bit better, who knows? Well, some people do, obviously, but I haven't played.
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May 11, 2015 10:18
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weso12 posted:Except branching paths is kind of the whole point of a CYOA Not in the actual Choose Your Own Adventure series. Those were pretty much just like this book, one or two real paths and a bunch of options that would just lead straight to an ending. Some game books did it a bit better, but there's always a limit to how much is possible. Every complete path reduces the possible length of the story.
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May 11, 2015 12:58
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Tiggum posted:Not in the actual Choose Your Own Adventure series. Those were pretty much just like this book, one or two real paths and a bunch of options that would just lead straight to an ending. Some game books did it a bit better, but there's always a limit to how much is possible. Every complete path reduces the possible length of the story. If the material were original at least the railroading would be less painfully obvious, but when it's Shakespeare and a video game format that only has time and writer fatigue/starvation as constraints rather than publishers and book length, it stands out like a sore thumb. Making more of the dead ends two or three choices deep instead of one would have done a lot to reduce that feel of wasted potential.
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May 11, 2015 13:29
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To be fair, it also has the limitations of a print version since the app was adapted from it. Honestly, I don't have too much of a problem with the lack of breadth to the story paths. Hamlet is a long story and we haven't gotten very deep. I'm just sick of Ryan North's writing style. I used to read Dinosaur Comics and his other works religiously but it's not for me anymore.
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May 11, 2015 13:35
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I try to view Ryan North's portrayal of Ophelia in a vacuum, and honestly don't really mind how she's presented in this game; she winds up being genuinely entertaining and interesting a lot of the time. With respect to the structure of To Be or Not To Be, one of the biggest issues I have with it is that while most deviations from the main path just get you killed right away, completely at random you'll run into one that opens into an entire minigame, and there's no way to predict which you're going to get; your only real option to find them is to bruteforce the game. But speaking of brute force, it's time for an update. The votes were very close, but the winning choice is clear: We're going to explode Laertes. quote:You decide you've had quite enough of your brother Laertes. This is the third time this week that he's come barging in to show off his newest fencing move or complain about being left out of Claudius's parties or whatever. You're sick and tired of it and you want nothing more right now than to burst him into a fine paste. ...Wait a minute, that wasn't the majority vote. That's not even an option! Sorry about the confusion; let me correct this. Ophelia's going to let Laertes into her room. quote:
Things certainly aren't off to a good start with Laertes. Is Ophelia going to nip this in the bud? Pittsburgh Lambic fucked around with this message at 04:19 on Jun 5, 2015 |
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May 11, 2015 13:42
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Can we explode Ryan North next? Oh, fine. Slam the door in Laertes' face instead.
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May 11, 2015 13:54
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quote:If you sleep with Hamlet you're a slut," he says. That's certainly one way of interpreting Laertes' lines. It ignores pretty much the entire meaning of the scene and the spirit of his advice (and completely leaves out Ophelia's comeback) in favor of setting Laertes up as a raging sexist strawman for North to tear apart. But it's definitely a way that those lines could be interpreted. Invite him in.
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May 11, 2015 14:51
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Slam the door in that jerk's face.
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May 11, 2015 16:32
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Duckbag posted:Yeah, I suspect that, were I reading it on my own, I'd go down a couple paths, skim past some of the lamer content, and probably have some fun with it before setting it down again for a while. I doubt I'd actually get through all of it, but it seems like it would be nice enough to flip through when I felt like light reading. Then again, I actually like Ryan North. No, this really isn't much of a game (or at least it isn't yet, the character select screen is still the only true branching path we've had, but I still have hope), and a few of the endings were pretty lame, but a lot of the classic CYOAs were just as bad about that poo poo (as are some of the Choice Of... games), and I think it's largely a matter of expectation. Mostly this is just a reasonably clever book by a fairly talented writer who badly overreached (kickstarter will do that) and really could have used a better editor. Enjoy it for what it is, or don't (lord knows this wouldn't be SA without about a little scorn), but it's not a complete trainwreck (unlike that play). I'm not sure it really works as an LP (too much railroading, though the same can be said for most of the Choice Of games), but the approach this thread has taken has done a lot to suck all the joy and life out of it, starting with an OP that more or less said "I hate this author and the webcomics community he stands for. This is going to suck." Silly humor (lame, trite, or mannered as North's may sometimes be) really can't survive in an atmosphere of cynical nitpicking and I'd rather this thread didn't get too bitter. Pittsburgh Lambic posted:
Ryan North, ladies and gentlemen. EDIT: Slam the door GenderSelectScreen fucked around with this message at 18:48 on May 11, 2015 |
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May 11, 2015 17:20
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I remember hearing about this and thinking it sounded cool, I think I saw a friend get a book copy once and then I sort of forgot about it but occasionally meant to check it out. Unfortunately I can't really dig this LP's love-hate relationship with the source material. Don't get me wrong, I'm familiar with having mixed opinions on a game you're Let's Play-ing, but it's hard to assess the game with a proxy-argument going on all the time and the occasional edits to tone down criticisms make for an odd tone. I think I'll have to buy it myself to give To Be or Not To Be a real chance. Thank you for showcasing this game though! LPs are hard work.
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May 11, 2015 20:21
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I'll say a few things, in regards to the dismal response to the book here. For doing one of the pages of art in the book I got a free hardcover copy, which he didn't have to do. And yeah, even without the bonus content, the book is huge:  It's about 2/3rds the size of the entire Lord of the Rings trilogy (please don't be that guy about using LotR for comparison, ok?) I offered to do a picture because I thought the book was a great concept and I'm a fan of many of the artists, and wanted to be in the same collection with them. After receiving it, I started reading and... yeah, I kinda had the same reaction as many here. The writing is just kind of... disappointing? Too many dead ends. Too much "rad, bro!" humor for my tastes. And as someone who has worked on a lot of CYOA content, I think he might not have been up to the challenge of making a complex branching story, or making it live up to the expectation of his mega-successful campaign. That's a LOT of pages for something that feels a bit like fumbling around in the dark. But I want to defend the man a bit here. I offered to do art for free and he insisted on paying me. He pretty much let me do the image however I wanted, and he paid me on time. That's a lot better than many people I've worked with. And when I communicated with him over email, he seemed like a real nice, humble guy. I can empathize with the dangers of a too-successful Kickstarter. So whether you think his writing his terrible or he's a feminist or a misogynist or both (cmon guys, seriously?), I don't think it's fair to slander the guy writing it. To be completely honest, it pisses me off when people who have done nothing of value poo poo on someone who spent the time, risk and effort to try and make something that others will enjoy. Whether that applies to you or not is up to you. So there's my two cents. Chewbot fucked around with this message at 21:23 on May 11, 2015 |
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May 11, 2015 21:06
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See the problem I have with the book is if I wanted to be railroaded so much I'd read Hamlet. The kickstarter made it sound a lot better than what the finished product turned out to be IMO. I do have to give him credit for signing every book he promised to sign, even if his wrist gave out a quarter of a way through.
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May 11, 2015 21:12
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Chewbot posted:To be completely honest, it pisses me off when people who have done nothing of value poo poo on someone who spent the time, risk and effort to try and make something that others will enjoy. The "but you've never done anything" defense is the laziest response to criticism. Yeah, he worked hard and is a nice guy, but if some people don't like the finished product, tough poo poo. It's not fair to accuse them of having done "nothing of value".
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May 11, 2015 21:35
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The real problem is that I don't think the thing can be done well by anyone. Like, if you go back and read a few choose your own adventure books as an adult, one thing you'll notice right away is that they're all kinda poo poo writing-wise. But the second thing you'll notice is that the railroading and/or instadeath is at best as bad as it is here, and usually much worse. The format really doesn't lend itself to meaningful choices or good writing. It's just too much effort and too many pages. Believe it or not, this book it about the most "choice-ful" the genre ever gets.
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May 11, 2015 21:55
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dreezy posted:The "but you've never done anything" defense is the laziest response to criticism. Yeah, he worked hard and is a nice guy, but if some people don't like the finished product, tough poo poo. It's not fair to accuse them of having done "nothing of value". "Tough poo poo" is the correct response to this, right?
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May 11, 2015 22:26
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Goddamn this thread is full of nerds gettin' angry at webcomics
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May 11, 2015 22:31
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Chewbot posted:"Tough poo poo" is the correct response to this, right? Please, keep reminding us how you used to work at Bioware.
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May 11, 2015 22:33
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Hitlers Gay Secret posted:Please, keep reminding us how you used to work at Bioware. Working at a job relevant to the topic at hand, how name-droppy of me! BioWare sucks, guys! Sorry about suggesting that some of you do nothing of value, Hitler's Gay Secret, and for sort of barely defending the author. I see I was wrong now. I'll leave you guys alone.
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May 11, 2015 22:46
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