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please give me 15 dollars an hour i dont want to be poor
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May 10, 2015 02:29
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VitalSigns posted:Why is there no reason to expect most of the costs won't be passed on to consumers? Are McDonald's profits zero? This is the third time I've linked this ITT. "http://davidcard.berkeley.edu/papers/njmin-aer.pdf%22 posted:A final issue we examine is the effect of the minimum wage on the prices of meals at fast-food restaurants. A competitive model of the fast-food industry implies that an increase in the minimum wage will lead to an increase in product prices. If we assume constant returns to scale in the industry, the increase in price should be proportional to the share of minimum-wage labor in total factor cost. The average restaurant in New Jersey initially paid about half its workers less than the new minimum wage. If wages rose by roughly 15 percent for these workers, and if labor's share of total costs is 30 percent, we would expect prices to rise by about 2.2 percent ( = 0.15 X 0.5X 0.3) due to the minimum-wage rise... VitalSigns posted:Yes, I know these things, and that's the problem with your argument: it does assume that inflation is always bad because you're taking the position "it doesn't matter if workers can feed their families, what about people on fixed income, they will be hurt if prices go up". But for some reason you don't care about the much greater inflation we purposely cause with our central bank policies, even though that hurts the pensioners and whoever else you're hiding behind right now. So you don't really care about price increases at all, except as a convenient weapon to attack the minimum wage. Depressions are bad. Recessions are bad. High Inflation is bad. Inequality is bad. The effects of a depression or a recession on everyone, rich and poor, are worse than moderate inflation so policies which correct recessions and depressions are probably worthwhile, even if they cause some inflation (current Fed policy is not causing large amounts of inflation -- that's a right-wing canard). The minimum wage, as a tool to fight inequality, isn't all that effective because a majority of those below the poverty line do not earn wage income, and therefore will only experience the negative consequences of inflation. There's no "right" price level, although lower prices are obviously better for consumers than higher prices. Lowering the minimum wage would likely not result in any significant price decreases because few people currently work for minimum wage. I want you to consider the possibility that you don't have a firm grasp of the economics here, and might be wrong, rather than asserting that my reticence to endorse a large minimum wage is due to some double-secret need to gently caress over the poor.
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May 10, 2015 03:07
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You're still refusing to answer the question. The central bank has inflation targets to hit now, and it is actively pumping money into the economy to hit them. If prices go up for some other reason, like the minimum wage, why wouldn't this be compensated by the central bank dialing back QE or setting higher interest rate targets. Isn't that their whole job? Inflation really sounds like a concern troll to me, because we are encouraging inflation with our monetary policy so we could just do less of that. E: And why are the extra people affected such a big concern? If a business employs all minimum wage workers then a $15 minimum wage would double their labor costs sure. But why are you worried about the $15 minimum wage affecting people who already make $12 an hour? That's only a 25% increase on the labor costs due to those people and labor is only a small part of the sales price of goods. This is like asdf's thinking that it's "the total number of dollars" that are important, when it's not: it's the proportional change to labor costs. If the total number dollars were important, it would mean that the smaller a country is, the less minimum wage affects it because fewer workers means fewer total dollars involved. That doesn't make sense. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 03:57 on May 10, 2015 |
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May 10, 2015 03:25
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JeffersonClay posted:The labor share of a Big Mac is about 25%, so doubling wages would lead to a 25% increase in cost, and there's no reason to expect the large majority of that would not be passed on to consumers. This is why Big Macs cost more in places like Australia and Sweden where labor costs are higher. Add 30-50%+ additional taxes/pension stuff that the employer pays on top of wages and it's almost like it'd make sense if we were spared from the scourge of international fast food chains. Somehow that is not the case. With UBI and proper unions out of the question the issue to discuss shouldn't at all be "is this possible?", because it loving well obviously is, but "what is the best pace at which to implement this?". Anything else is just dumb reverse American exceptionalism. Obviously massively oversimplified but then again it's quite a simple issue at its core. It's already proven that employers can bear the cost. Either way riots from automation induced unemployment will quite soon force changes to your system much larger in scale than this one.
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May 10, 2015 04:14
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it pretty much boils down to this one weird conclusion that might surprise: there is literally no reason not to have a $15 minimum wage
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May 10, 2015 04:20
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A national $15 minimum wage is just as out of the question as a mincome is for now. I don't understand why leftists are so keen on a policy that ties workers further to their employers.
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May 10, 2015 04:22
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Series DD Funding posted:A national $15 minimum wage is just as out of the question as a mincome is for now. no it isnt
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May 10, 2015 04:23
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Series DD Funding posted:A national $15 minimum wage is just as out of the question as a mincome is for now. I don't understand why leftists are so keen on a policy that ties workers further to their employers. lol what the gently caress does this even mean
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May 10, 2015 04:24
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^^^ Presumably "why not advocate for an employer independent mincome" but that's stupid because that will never pass but minwage is certainly attainable for now.Series DD Funding posted:A national $15 minimum wage is just as out of the question as a mincome is for now. Not really no, it's already passed in a variety of areas it's pretty reasonable. Probably should be higher but baby steps. quote:I don't understand why leftists are so keen on a policy that ties workers further to their employers. Full communism isn't going to happen in a day, have some vision.
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May 10, 2015 04:26
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oh god, i dont want a $15 minimum wage because ill have to pay 50 cents more for my loving big mac -a bunch of fat loving intellectual children in this thread
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May 10, 2015 04:26
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Series DD Funding posted:A national $15 minimum wage is just as out of the question as a mincome is for now. I don't understand why leftists are so keen on a policy that ties workers further to their employers. We should pay workers less so they're not dependent on their employers. If you'll starve regardless of whether you have a job or not, your boss has no power over you and you're free!  People who are paid more money have more ability to save, to move, to change jobs, or to get an education, so they're less dependent on employers, not more
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May 10, 2015 04:36
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Zeitgueist posted:Not really no, it's already passed in a variety of areas it's pretty reasonable. Probably should be higher but baby steps. Where has it passed besides Seattle? Keep in mind you're looking at 1) an extremely liberal city that 2) already has higher than average wages (and higher than average costs). It doesn't help that leftist rhetoric is things like this: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/10/10/1141724/-Walmart-fuels-inequality-epidemic-taking-advantage-of-our-safety-net VitalSigns posted:We should pay workers less so they're not dependent on their employers. Someone receiving a mincome is able to live without their employer regardless of wage.
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May 10, 2015 04:40
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RBC posted:oh god, i dont want a $15 minimum wage because ill have to pay 50 cents more for my loving big mac Honestly a big mac might not be worth consuming if they raised the price by that much. A big mac might not even be worth consuming at any price.
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May 10, 2015 04:42
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Series DD Funding posted:Someone receiving a mincome is able to live without their employer regardless of wage. Okay well when we get a mincome, we can include some provisions in the bill to lower the minimum wage. But I don't see any reason to back off on labor laws now in the hopes of maybe getting a mincome one day. The only major presidential candidate to endorse mincome, ever, was George McGovern  Are you from another, saner country than the USA or something? The current Republican position is that the Earned Income Tax Credit is Big Government socialistic enabling of those too lazy to go find better jobs and too irresponsible to control their reproduction. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 04:46 on May 10, 2015 |
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May 10, 2015 04:44
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Series DD Funding posted:Someone receiving a mincome is able to live without their employer regardless of wage.
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May 10, 2015 04:51
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Ghost of Reagan Past posted:Yes, and I'm pretty sure the Kicking Puppies and Torturing Kittens Act of 2015 is closer to passing than Mincome. Isn't Hillary pushing this legislation as a compromise to mincome? I'm not a fan of the KPaTKA personally, but it's the best we're likely to get
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May 10, 2015 05:03
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The Fed isn't trying to cause inflation, they're trying to boost demand. The economy was suffering due to a drop in demand and consumption, so the fed lowered interest rates to discourage saving. Once interest rates hit zero they started to increase the money supply to encourage spending and investment. Inflation will occur once demand catches up with supply. It signals the Fed that the policy has worked and they can stop QE and raise interest rates. Inflation isn't the goal, it's the metric. The inflation caused here isn't good, it's just worth it. So yes the Fed could control inflation but only by slowing economic growth.
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May 10, 2015 05:18
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The minimum wage boosts demand as well, so you're right I agree with you that it's worth the risk of price increases to stimulate the economy in a period of slack demand.
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May 10, 2015 05:46
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Series DD Funding posted:Someone receiving a mincome is able to live without their employer regardless of wage. If we're rooting for entirely politically impossible things I'd like full communism please. JeffersonClay posted:The Fed isn't trying to cause inflation, they're trying to boost demand. The economy was suffering due to a drop in demand and consumption, so the fed lowered interest rates to discourage saving. Once interest rates hit zero they started to increase the money supply to encourage spending and investment. Inflation will occur once demand catches up with supply. It signals the Fed that the policy has worked and they can stop QE and raise interest rates. Inflation isn't the goal, it's the metric. Holy loving poo poo you're so drat close! There's just one more step! I believe in you!
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May 10, 2015 06:14
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Is there empirical evidence that the minimum wage increases demand? The difference between inflation caused by QE and inflation caused by the minimum wage, is the inflation from QE is temporary, and can be turned off once demand recovers and inflation rebounds.
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May 10, 2015 06:16
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Yes, and those things can happen due to a minimum wage increase.
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May 10, 2015 06:22
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JeffersonClay posted:Is there empirical evidence that the minimum wage increases demand? The difference between inflation caused by QE and inflation caused by the minimum wage, is the inflation from QE is temporary, and can be turned off once demand recovers and inflation rebounds. Yes. Poor people spend additional money they receive because they are currently doing without things that are very useful for being alive.
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May 10, 2015 06:24
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Poor people would just stick the extra money in their mattress and continue to not afford medicine, food, heat, and entertainment.
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May 10, 2015 06:28
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JeffersonClay posted:Is there empirical evidence that the minimum wage increases demand? The difference between inflation caused by QE and inflation caused by the minimum wage, is the inflation from QE is temporary, and can be turned off once demand recovers and inflation rebounds. Nah poor people just burn any money they feel is extra, that's why they're poor.
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May 10, 2015 06:28
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Most people spend pretty much all of their money for the first 25k irrc, more if they have dependents.
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May 10, 2015 06:29
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asdf32 posted:No its not interesting. It's obvious because minimum wage increases in the past have been tiny in relation to the economy. If the argument is that a minimum wage increase causes a price increase, then that should be true even if the minimum wage increase is small. It's fascinating that people will continue to claim that even a small increase will result in a price increase despite all evidence to the contrary. quote:You're obfuscating things. If every dollar is passed on as costs increases then we need only count the dollars. If we're talking about a $15 minimum wage increase we're talking about boosting the pay of roughly 40% of the workforce. Whatever percentage of the economy that represents is how much costs are going to increase overall. It's not negligible for $15. I'm not obfuscating anything, you loving intellectual child. Even if 100% of the minimum wage increase goes into increased prices, minimum wage employees still come out way ahead in the game. But in reality, the prices of goods and services are not set by input costs alone. quote:Again, I don't think inflation is a prime problem for realistic minimum wage increases, but you're just not getting the analysis right here. You can't even correctly solve a 3rd grade math problem, why the gently caress should your opinion on economics matter?
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May 10, 2015 07:19
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"We need only count the dollars" is amazingly ignorant. If it's only the absolute number of dollars that's important, then the larger a country is, the more minimum wage will hurt the economy since we've got more workers and therefore more total dollars  E: I feel like I need to lay down some sixth-grade math: percentages Say I have three workers: one earning $7/hr, one earning $8, and one earning $9. If the minimum wage goes up to $8, that's an extra $1 I'm paying every hour. If the minimum wage goes up to $9, I'm now paying an extra $3 an hour. OMG that's three times the dollars, that's so much!1!!!!!1! It's exponential!!!!11!1!11! But if you look at it in proportion to my total labor costs... My initial cost is 7+8+9 = $24 Minimum wage of $8, my costs are 8+8+9=$25. 25/24 is a 4.2% increase Minimum wage of $9, my costs are 9+9+9=$27. 27/24 is a 12.5% increase Is that more, yeah obviously. But even though the $9 minimum wage costs me three times as many total extra dollars as the $8 minimum wage increase did, it's only a small increase in percentage terms. Hell even if we raised it to $15, my costs are 15+15+15 = $45. 45/24 is an 88% increase. I more than doubled the minimum wage, and my labor costs didn't even quite double. And if I'd had more workers in between $9 and $15, then the percentage increase would be even smaller. This is not an exponential. It's not even a linear increase given this distribution because even though I more than doubled the minimum wage, my labor costs went up by less than 100%. I suspect the actual relationship is some flavor of logarithmic depending on the underlying wage distribution but I can't be assed to create a proof right now. TLDR: Not only are total labor costs not an exponential function of the minimum wage, they're actually only a linear function of the minimum wage in the special case in which all affected workers make the minimum wage. If any of the affected workers make more, then y(A*x) < A*y(x) and the effect on labor costs is actually less than what you would expect if you assumed a linear relationship (One criterion for a linear relationship is, of course y(A*x) = A*y(x) ) VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 08:46 on May 10, 2015 |
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May 10, 2015 07:24
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Series DD Funding posted:Someone receiving a mincome is able to live without their employer regardless of wage. Yup, believe me, most of the people in this thread who would like the minimum wage to increase would happily throw out the minimum wage completely if a guaranteed minimum income was created
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May 10, 2015 07:32
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JeffersonClay posted:Is there empirical evidence that the minimum wage increases demand? The difference between inflation caused by QE and inflation caused by the minimum wage, is the inflation from QE is temporary, and can be turned off once demand recovers and inflation rebounds. "Is giving the poor more money so it gets spent instead of sitting in the bank accounts and tax havens of the rich, doing nothing, good for the economy?"
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May 10, 2015 07:38
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JeffersonClay posted:Is there empirical evidence that the minimum wage increases demand? The difference between inflation caused by QE and inflation caused by the minimum wage, is the inflation from QE is temporary, and can be turned off once demand recovers and inflation rebounds. Yes, there are a number of studies that have examined the link between minimum wage and demand. But it's kind of an obvious result anyway. Minimum wage workers tend to have an MPC of 1. Demand is defined in terms of dollars spent on goods. If you're spending every dollar that you earn, then every additional dollar that you earn is an additional dollar of demand generated, and that's before you even start thinking about the velocity of money.
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May 10, 2015 08:27
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Series DD Funding posted:Someone receiving a mincome is able to live without their employer regardless of wage. And someone with a magical wish-granting unicorn doesn't have any need for money.
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May 10, 2015 08:27
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QuarkJets posted:Yes, there are a number of studies that have examined the link between minimum wage and demand. But it's kind of an obvious result anyway. Minimum wage workers tend to have an MPC of 1. Demand is defined in terms of dollars spent on goods. If you're spending every dollar that you earn, then every additional dollar that you earn is an additional dollar of demand generated, and that's before you even start thinking about the velocity of money. [citation needed]
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May 10, 2015 12:11
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Geriatric Pirate posted:[citation needed] lol
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May 10, 2015 12:12
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Geriatric Pirate posted:[citation needed] You want a citation on poor people not saving their money? Seriously? You do realize that under capitalism it is required that you exchange money to gain goods and services right? And that certain goods and services are required for a functional life in a modern society as well as life at all?
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May 10, 2015 12:15
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LorrdErnie posted:You want a citation on poor people not saving their money? Seriously? You do realize that under capitalism it is required that you exchange money to gain goods and services right? And that certain goods and services are required for a functional life in a modern society as well as life at all? But yes, a citation that minimum wage workers have a high MPC relative to other groups that could be helped. Not poor people in general, minimum wage workers. Maybe in addition to that, something showing how the increase in demand for minimum wage workers will offset the decrease in demand for unemployed people or other people hurt by inflation.
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May 10, 2015 12:21
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Geriatric Pirate posted:The pro-$15 minimum wage people seemed to be crying for a citation that minimum wage will either lower employment or raise prices which are just as obvious. lol
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May 10, 2015 12:25
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Of course, in Nordic countries like Denmark, fast food workers make $20/hr, an absurd economy-destroying amount that has surely led to the worst unemployment anywhere on earth And the prices are insane, making hamburgers completely unaffordable to the poor, a veritable luxury available only to the very richest and most profligate of diners New York Times posted:True, a Big Mac [in Denmark] costs more — $5.60, compared with $4.80 in the United States. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 12:41 on May 10, 2015 |
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May 10, 2015 12:38
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Great idea! The US should also have no minimum wage, just like Denmark. Let wages reflect economic conditions instead of an arbitrary government set amount.
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May 10, 2015 13:12
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Someone clarify for me but: What is this idea that a higher minimum wage would lead to higher unemployment due to layoffs? Does that make any sense? Is their evidence for it? Logically, I would expect the exact opposite, since it seems like it would vastly lower the labour supply, while also increasing the demand for many consumer goods, and layoffs just seem... incredibly unlikely, most companies don't maintain superflous employees, and firing people so they make *less* money is a weird goddamn reaction to having higher costs. Going a bit more into each of these: Many employees working super long hours or two jobs or couples, especially parents, where both work... would just stop. People generally don't work 60+ hour work weeks because they want to, but because they can't afford not to. As they stopped working these hours or quit one of their jobs, that position would open for others. It seems like a higher minimum wage would result in lots of lower class workers voluntarily removing labour from the workforce, leading to lower unemployment. Employees that are not currently underemployed or working multiple jobs will see a jump in household income which will lead to a jump in discretionary spending. It's well known that lower wealth individuals spend significantly more of their money than higher wealth ones, so all this new cash is likely to lead directly to consumption and increased economic activity, leading to much higher demand (and higher profits) for industries targeting the lower and middle class with goods and services, which is... a lot of them! Companies only generally have employees they think they can make money off of. A McDonald's isn't going to fire half it's staff because they make twice as much - they only have that much staff to begin with because that is how many they need to keep the place running and keep up with consumer demand! If anything, they'd have to increase staff, as (mentioned in the previous paragraph) demand for their services rise. If they did cut staff, they'd only end up losing even more money and probably permanently hurt their image in the market by offering lower quality and slower service. Finally, there would be one way in which we'd lose jobs - companies that are already operating so close to the break even point that they'd go out of business even with an influx of new demand. This is an argument that seems to actually have a basis in reality, but I rarely hear it talked about by those arguing against minimum wage. Perhaps it is because such a failure is sort of the epitome of the free market experience and is simply a sign that the company's business wasn't valuable enough to the country at large to survive? I don't know. The whole opposition just seems weird to me. Obviously there's a point where raising the minimum wage too high would cause problems - raise it to $50/hr and lots of companies would probably fold, and you'd get enough people dropping out of the work force to cause real and severe labour shortages. Basically, Geriatric Pirate posted:The pro-$15 minimum wage people seemed to be crying for a citation that minimum wage will either lower employment or raise prices which are just as obvious. GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 13:27 on May 10, 2015 |
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May 10, 2015 13:25
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Geriatric Pirate posted:Great idea! The US should also have no minimum wage, just like Denmark. Let wages reflect economic conditions instead of an arbitrary government set amount. Lucky you, we're actually practically there already! The US minimum wage is currently set somewhere between gently caress-you and crime-against-humanity so really all we'd have to do to be like Denmark is have the large collective bargaining agreements that they have which set even fast food jobs at almost 3 times what we make here in the USA. I take it then you support the recent fast food worker strikes here in the USA that strive to attain the Denmark collective bargaining model for us? VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 13:49 on May 10, 2015 |
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May 10, 2015 13:47
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