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straight up brolic posted:If Simmons isn't relatable to you (he's not really to me either) then you aren't the target audience. I'd be willing to wager that he gets more traffic than anyone else on ESPN and he's brought all his old readers over to Grantland, so he's clearly been successful as a writer from a business perspective. The 'art of writing' is meaningless here. I'm not complaining that I don't relate to him. I'm saying I agree with Deadspin about his writing specifically that the things I found relatable and he launched a career pushing to the front of his writing have either not updated at all (personal references, movie references, that time when...) or have changed wildly to his detriment.
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May 11, 2015 18:49
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Christ Pseudoscientist posted:I am also guessing the he will not be involved with the draft this year. That's actually a shame, him making fun of draft picks, suits, and being biased for the Celtics was actually fun. I'm not looking forward to every pick being "a great pick" and hearing "the fans should be really excited about this team" for 2 hours.
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May 11, 2015 18:54
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MourningView posted:He's a big name, but as much as I like Grantland it's generally been kind of a flop from a business perspective, and he was trying to push them to add even more stuff like the basketball TV show they have that no one watches. You can put up an enfant terrible if he's bringing in money and launching lucrative new projects and has a growing audience. Grantland is a critical success and he did excellent work shaping 30 by 30 into what it is, but sooner or later you have to justify the salary they're paying you, and it's hard to see Simmons doing that, much less angling for another contract and a raise. Even Simmons' writing doesn't bring as much to the table as it used to - he doesn't do it that often, and he's probably hit the ceiling on how large his audience is (mid-40s Dad Joke guy is not really your best bet to win over new Millennial readers and viewers). So why invest more money in a property whose value has probably peaked and who hasn't exactly been spinning straw into gold for the last few years? Plus as that article pointed out, if you pay Simmons $5-$6 million, then how much more do you have to pay the talent who actually do bring in the money and eyeballs with their hot takes?
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May 11, 2015 18:57
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Lockback posted:That's actually a shame, him making fun of draft picks, suits, and being biased for the Celtics was actually fun. I'm not looking forward to every pick being "a great pick" and hearing "the fans should be really excited about this team" for 2 hours. At least I won't have three consecutive years of me making a joke and then him immediately saying the same thing word for word and filling me with shame. FMguru posted:Simmons was also a strong proponent of ESPN backing Nate Silver's 538.com, a site which is reportedly an even bigger traffic bust than Grantland, and I'm sure that didn't do anything to endear Bill to the bosses back in Bristol. That one should at least pick up big time soonish, but yeah it's hard to see it having much appeal in non-election years, and you can already see them struggling to think of things to write about.
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May 11, 2015 19:09
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Was bringing his Grantland basketball videos to TV actually his idea? It looked a lot to me like ESPN made a push for that because they were getting good web traffic. I thought those preview videos were always really entertaining but the show sucks all the life out of it with its TV-ness.
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May 11, 2015 19:12
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Jesus Christ, I just read the piece Kate Fagan did on Madison Holleran's life. poo poo moved me man...... http://espn.go.com/espn/feature/story/_/id/12833146/instagram-account-university-pennsylvania-runner-showed-only-part-story
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May 11, 2015 19:33
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FMguru posted:Simmons was also a strong proponent of ESPN backing Nate Silver's 538.com, a site which is reportedly an even bigger traffic bust than Grantland, and I'm sure that didn't do anything to endear Bill to the bosses back in Bristol. ESPN buying Nate Silver never made a lick of god damned sense and it still doesn't now. I don't know when his deal with them is up, but I'm pretty sure it won't be renewed.
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May 11, 2015 19:42
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straight up brolic posted:this criticism lacks any kind of depth in perspective. he's a bad writer because he's not versatile, but (in the context of the article) he's a good writer because he writes about sports in a way that the layman can relate to and laugh about. I don't get the people that want him to be like David loving Foster Wallace, he's served his purpose at ESPN for 15 years by driving viewers to the site and, in the past couple years, radically changed the culture of their audience with Grantland and 30 for 30. Reflecting on his reign as anything but a triumph for his employer is missing the point. Forget it Jake, it's Gawker. They're entertaining, but pretty much any time any of those sites get up on their soapbox to "speak truth to power" it's just a wet fart of self-righteous anger.
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May 11, 2015 19:55
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A Man and his dog posted:Jesus Christ, I just read the piece Kate Fagan did on Madison Holleran's life. I'm glad that we have been starting to see more of these types of stories pop up. They are bringing awareness to the irrationality of depression and that it isn't a stigma but something that should be treated. I have had a couple friends recently go through some serious depression issues and just knowing about this stuff has helped to get them the help they needed and helping them realize they have family and friends that support them without judgement.
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May 11, 2015 20:02
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Akileese posted:ESPN buying Nate Silver never made a lick of god damned sense and it still doesn't now. I don't know when his deal with them is up, but I'm pretty sure it won't be renewed. It was more of a joint ESPN/ABC venture and they bought 538 specifically for the next 17 months or so. Afterwards there'll probably be some kind of merger between Grantland or 538, or at least a refocusing on the latter's part. Of course, Darren Rovell's Brandland(c) will render sports journalism, and eventually all journalism, moot anyway. Love the brand. Worship the #brand.
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May 11, 2015 20:54
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Who could have predicted 538 would not be successful from November 7th 2012-Now? I'm assuming if 538 gets in the black it will happen between now and election day. Simmons was friendly with those guys and may have been an advocate, but I can't imagine ESPN would take out any problems they have on Simmons. Silver was a minor celebrity after running the table, Simmons was hardly the only person in his corner.
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May 11, 2015 21:11
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straight up brolic posted:this criticism lacks any kind of depth in perspective. he's a bad writer because he's not versatile, but (in the context of the article) he's a good writer because he writes about sports in a way that the layman can relate to and laugh about. I don't get the people that want him to be like David loving Foster Wallace, he's served his purpose at ESPN for 15 years by driving viewers to the site and, in the past couple years, radically changed the culture of their audience with Grantland and 30 for 30. Reflecting on his reign as anything but a triumph for his employer is missing the point. straight up brolic posted:If Simmons isn't relatable to you (he's not really to me either) then you aren't the target audience. I'd be willing to wager that he gets more traffic than anyone else on ESPN and he's brought all his old readers over to Grantland, so he's clearly been successful as a writer from a business perspective. The 'art of writing' is meaningless here. FMguru probably said it best, but Simmons and Grantland weren't a commercial success at all. Their audience is nothing compared to pretty much anything else on ESPN, and in terms of costs alone Grantland probably has most of the best paid writers on the company. Grantland basketball hour gets ratings that are similar to around the horn and smaller than PTI (and much smaller than Inside the NBA on tnt). 30 for 30's best ratings were around 2 million viewers, and the vast majority fell well below it. In terms of internet traffic, grantland is actually pretty small for a site that is directly linked to by the biggest sports portal on the world, and according to Alexa and pretty much every other publicly available traffic tracker Grantland is far behind deadspin, si.com, and so on. BS report does well in podcasts, but that is a very small world (NPR programming generally tops the podcast rankings) The reason ESPN invested so much on Simmons, grantland and so on is the critical success and respectability. From a business perspective, there are a ton more profitable things that could take up grantland/Bill simmons space, and I wouldn't be surprised if Simmon's stuff operated at an actual loss (as opposed to simply not being as profitable). But when your vanity/prestige project starts to affect your real cash cows (like the NFL), it is pretty easy to see which way things are going to go.
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May 11, 2015 21:23
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hcreight posted:So, yeah, anyone hoping for Simmons to do an ESPN bashing guest column or something for Deadspin, don't hold your breath. This does get to something that always bugs me. People act like he's gotten worse as a writer as Boston teams have gotten better and he's become more successful and less of a common man, and that is complete horseshit. Go back and read one of his old columns from page 2 sometime (they actually just posted all of his old NBA trade value rankings on Grantland not too long ago). He may suck now but he is WAY better than he used to be. Like it's not even close. He just seems worse now because the people who were reading him back in high school are older now and it's easier than ever to find good sportswriting on the internet. "Guy who makes jokes, and references pop culture when writing about sports" doesn't feel inventive or new anymore, so you actually notice just how loving stupid everything he writes is.
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May 11, 2015 21:51
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joepinetree posted:The reason ESPN invested so much on Simmons, grantland and so on is the critical success and respectability. From a business perspective, there are a ton more profitable things that could take up grantland/Bill simmons space, and I wouldn't be surprised if Simmon's stuff operated at an actual loss (as opposed to simply not being as profitable). But when your vanity/prestige project starts to affect your real cash cows (like the NFL), it is pretty easy to see which way things are going to go. The way they cut his legs off in public, though - that was personal. And nasty. MourningView posted:"Guy who makes jokes, and references pop culture when writing about sports" doesn't feel inventive or new anymore, so you actually notice just how loving stupid everything he writes is. One of the Deadspin writers compared Bill's firing to the cold, analytical way his beloved Belichick-era Patriots drop beloved veteran players who have given all to the team but don't seem like good bets to provide value in the future, and that was exactly on point. FMguru fucked around with this message at 22:14 on May 11, 2015 |
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May 11, 2015 21:58
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MourningView posted:He just seems worse now because the people who were reading him back in high school are older now and it's easier than ever to find good sportswriting on the internet. "Guy who makes jokes, and references pop culture when writing about sports" doesn't feel inventive or new anymore, so you actually notice just how loving stupid everything he writes is. For perspective, the most popular sports columnists from around 2000 were local writers who were traditionally old curmudgeons and "fresh new voices" that had been around for decades like Mitch Albom and Rick Reilly. Simmons doesn't seem inventive now, but in 2001, that stuff was sort of amazing to see in a mainstream setting.
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May 11, 2015 22:03
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FMguru posted:I think this is the heart of the dispute. Simmons is angry that ESPN wasn't willing to invest more into Grantland and his NBA efforts. ESPN was furious that despite being the highest-paid employee of the company and being given his own hands-off money-losing vanity web vertical, Simmons insisted on complaining and biting the hand that generously fed him, right up to going after the people (NFL) who really pay the bills. Given that Simmons' audience had probably peaked, that he wasn't exactly bringing lucrative new ideas to the network (30 for 30 did well but not spectacularly so, Grantland isn't exactly printing money, 538 is struggling, his basketball clips and shows aren't setting the world on fire, and his podcast make him a big fish in a very small pond), that he was going to ask for a raise on top his already top-of-the-list salary, that paying him means having to pay all the other talent who actually do bring money in, and that it's really bad for corporate morale and discipline to let loose cannons thumb their noses at the bosses without repercussions, then it makes perfect sense that ESPN decided that it really didn't make sense from a cost-benefit perspective to renew his contract. I think that is definitely the main issue. ESPN (in their own eyes) had to make an example of him.
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May 11, 2015 22:06
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I still don't even think it's that he "went after the NFL" and wish that wasn't how everyone insisted on wording it. They had lots of guys who did that. Olbermann blasted Goodell and called for him to retire, OTL did a big thing ripping them, and several writers were critical of their handling of domestic violence issues. The difference is that Simmons did it in a way that undermined the rest of ESPN's coverage by implying that they were in the NFL's pocket, despite all the negative coverage from the company. He wasn't trying to make any sort of real point, he was trying to play up his own image of himself as a rebel, and he did it in the dumbest most childish way possible.
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May 11, 2015 22:07
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Akileese posted:So deadspin said there's a rumor Colin Cowherd wants to leave to do political radio? Good riddance. I couldn't actually find an article about this aside from them mentioning the topic in their deadcast. Same here. Really quite excited if this is true. hcreight posted:So, yeah, anyone hoping for Simmons to do an ESPN bashing guest column or something for Deadspin, don't hold your breath. I don't know what it is about Burneko, but he just rubs me the wrong way. Like when I've seen other writers be critical of Simmons? It's been pretty funny, Drew Magary for example had some really funny take downs of the guy. Burneko just I don't know..comes off as a douche. I'd much rather read a Simmons piece than him because it at least seems like Simmons is having a good time writing it. Same with Magary really. I really don't give a poo poo about Simmons as a writer. I'm willing to let the guy go write whatever the hell he wants because it pretty much led to us getting some amazing documentaries, and some good articles by other people as a result. If it means us getting a Grantland II, or another "The U", "Pony Excess" "Winning Time" or "Once Brothers"? I'm more than willing to let the guy ramble on about his stupid exploits with his wife/friends and talking about the Karate Kid.
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May 11, 2015 22:25
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Who even knows about election season for 538 considering that Nate Silver screwed the pooch on his UK election predictions and then went on a big baby rant about how the polls are broke the next morning.
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May 11, 2015 22:29
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MourningView posted:I still don't even think it's that he "went after the NFL" and wish that wasn't how everyone insisted on wording it. Exactly, he dared his bosses to suspend him and they obliged. FuzzySkinner posted:I don't know what it is about Burneko, but he just rubs me the wrong way. I really like Burneko's output for FoodSpin, but that piece on Simmons was bad.
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May 11, 2015 22:33
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He's a solid writer on the whole but he has a running series of "Public Figure X Is A Scum-Sucking poo poo Person" articles where he summarizes basic facts/criticisms about a person and spices it up with hyperbole + insults and those are not that great
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May 11, 2015 22:54
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Groucho Marxist posted:Who even knows about election season for 538 considering that Nate Silver screwed the pooch on his UK election predictions and then went on a big baby rant about how the polls are broke the next morning. Tbf a lot of people screwed up the UK elections
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May 11, 2015 23:35
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Also any new people who are going there for just US Election won't give a poo poo about the UK stuff or have ever seen it.
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May 11, 2015 23:38
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I'm excited to pick up my Best American Sportswriting About Bill Simmons anthology in the fall.
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May 11, 2015 23:38
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hcreight posted:So, yeah, anyone hoping for Simmons to do an ESPN bashing guest column or something for Deadspin, don't hold your breath. edit Simmons isn't a great writer or anything, but his contributions to sportswriting should be undeniable. Besides, there is plenty to criticize about him without making up poo poo. AsInHowe posted:The BS Report, with Jason "Big Sexy" Whitlock. Ribsauce fucked around with this message at 23:44 on May 11, 2015 |
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May 11, 2015 23:39
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I think I see a fair amount of ESPN's "the brand is all-important, the people don't matter" philosophy behind this move. Like, one of the pieces linked around here even said it: the higher-ups weren't pleased Simmons was getting credit as the creator of Grantland and driving force behind the "30 for 30" docs. Not to say that managing Bill isn't probably a nightmare, but there's the stink of Rovell-esque "brand conquers all" thinking to some of this.
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May 12, 2015 00:33
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joepinetree posted:FMguru probably said it best, but Simmons and Grantland weren't a commercial success at all. Their audience is nothing compared to pretty much anything else on ESPN, and in terms of costs alone Grantland probably has most of the best paid writers on the company. Most of this thread is talking in circles, but this should be addressed: this is a silly sleight of hand, especially using the word 'writers.' I know what Grantland pays its rank and file, and I know what industry standard is -- Grantland pays exceptionally well for sportswriting, but at around industry standard for magazine feature-length pieces. And if we expand from 'writers' to 'talent,' no, Grantland's rank and file are not pulling in the kind of salaries the ESPN on-screen talent is -- hell, they're probably not even doing as well as most of the ESPN.com guys once you account for the fact that a number of them are freelance and have to buy their own benefits. And the big names, the Lowes/Keris/etc., would be just as much at home folded into the central ESPN brand, and probably at the same cost if I had to guess. When ESPN cuts Grantland's budget and the attendant lower-level employee per-article rates, they won't do so because they can't afford it. They'll do so because of ideology: because the idea of a department that doesn't turn a direct, consistent, short-term profit is anathema. At best, it'll probably turn into a shorter-length, more virally-oriented site with way too much cross-pollination with the main ESPN.com writing and editorial staff. At worst, well. When's the last time you went to Sports on Earth?
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May 12, 2015 00:54
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Crion posted:Most of this thread is talking in circles, but this should be addressed: this is a silly sleight of hand, especially using the word 'writers.' I know what Grantland pays its rank and file, and I know what industry standard is -- Grantland pays exceptionally well for sportswriting, but at around industry standard for magazine feature-length pieces. And if we expand from 'writers' to 'talent,' no, Grantland's rank and file are not pulling in the kind of salaries the ESPN on-screen talent is -- hell, they're probably not even doing as well as most of the ESPN.com guys once you account for the fact that a number of them are freelance and have to buy their own benefits. And the big names, the Lowes/Keris/etc., would be just as much at home folded into the central ESPN brand, and probably at the same cost if I had to guess. So your issue with my "silly sleight of hand" is that if you substitute a word I specifically used for something completely different you can then tear down my post? Talk about sleight of hand. Of course I didn't compare grantland's costs to the cost of on the air personality, and the reason should obvious without having to go into why. And then you proceed to basically restate what I said (that grantland doesn't turn a consistent short term profit) as if it is some grand insight. Talking in circles all right... joepinetree fucked around with this message at 01:23 on May 12, 2015 |
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May 12, 2015 01:14
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It's actually extremely important to note that writers, especially Grantland's, don't exist in their own little vacuum and are part of a much larger context with regards to the budget outlay ESPN makes for talent on the whole. As for the rest of your post, you're of course trivially correct: Grantland's profitability (or lack thereof) vis a vis other sports websites, especially completely different venture types like Deadspin and SI.com, is not really in question. It's settled. That's why I didn't quote it. I wasn't even really addressing it. I was addressing what springs from that acknowledgment.
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May 12, 2015 02:15
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C. Everett Koop posted:It was more of a joint ESPN/ABC venture and they bought 538 specifically for the next 17 months or so. Afterwards there'll probably be some kind of merger between Grantland or 538, or at least a refocusing on the latter's part. Specifically ESPN bought 538 so it could be stashed away for ABC news which has a much smaller budget. They thought they could get more content out of them I guess but it's going to be big for the elections. 538 will voltron up with the abc internal polling unit and in all likelihood be super wrong when Ben Carson wins it all or something.
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May 12, 2015 02:15
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Crion posted:It's actually extremely important to note that writers, especially Grantland's, don't exist in their own little vacuum and are part of a much larger context with regards to the budget outlay ESPN makes for talent on the whole. As for the rest of your post, you're of course trivially correct: Grantland's profitability (or lack thereof) vis a vis other sports websites, especially completely different venture types like Deadspin and SI.com, is not really in question. It's settled. That's why I didn't quote it. I wasn't even really addressing it. I was addressing what springs from that acknowledgment. You do realize that that post was a reply to specific claims regarding the business success of grantland, right? And that for someone who is talking about "trivially," entering the discussion to point out that grantland is cheaper than their TV programing probably takes the cake (not to mention that the "context" that you meant to add is pretty much there in the post). I mean, I really don't see the point of replying so aggressively just to call something silly while acknowledging that it is true.
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May 12, 2015 02:21
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Why can't we see who the real victim is here: Bill's talentless prep school buddies JackO, House, Sully Sullinger, Big Murph, Little Murph, Just Right Murph, Joey Bavarian, Trent Hippopotamus, Chet A, Chet M, Entourage Seasons 1-3 Box Set, Teen Murph, Johnny Sexcrimes, and A Beer CAn that turns blue to show that it is cold
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May 12, 2015 02:28
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R.D. Mangles posted:Why can't we see who the real victim is here: Bill's talentless prep school buddies JackO, House, Sully Sullinger, Big Murph, Little Murph, Just Right Murph, Joey Bavarian, Trent Hippopotamus, Chet A, Chet M, Entourage Seasons 1-3 Box Set, Teen Murph, Johnny Sexcrimes, and A Beer CAn that turns blue to show that it is cold "My buddy House is literally the greatest eater I've ever seen! Watch him consume all the food in this restaurant!" :House eats above-average for a middle-aged man and then gives up. Billy Boy proclaims it the 94th greatest sporting event in Boston history, ahead of the time David Ortiz legged out a triple and behind Reggie Lewis' collapse:
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May 12, 2015 02:33
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"House Eats" is probably the ultimate example of every criticism Simmons deserves. I would love to know how many people at ESPN tried to stop it from happening.
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May 12, 2015 02:34
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IDK if I got inexplicably famous I'd probably try to get all my utterly talentless friends cushy gigs too
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May 12, 2015 02:35
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I wouldn't be shocked if Simmons doesn't attempt to go "gently caress it" and go on his own in terms of having a website. It'd be a bit of a risk, but I think he could seriously pull it off.
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May 12, 2015 02:38
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R.D. Mangles posted:Why can't we see who the real victim is here: Bill's talentless prep school buddies JackO, House, Sully Sullinger, Big Murph, Little Murph, Just Right Murph, Joey Bavarian, Trent Hippopotamus, Chet A, Chet M, Entourage Seasons 1-3 Box Set, Teen Murph, Johnny Sexcrimes, and A Beer CAn that turns blue to show that it is cold RIP Bish and Stoner
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May 12, 2015 03:17
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FuzzySkinner posted:I wouldn't be shocked if Simmons doesn't attempt to go "gently caress it" and go on his own in terms of having a website. It'd be a bit of a risk, but I think he could seriously pull it off. I'm not sure Simmons will have the time to run a website, what with being so busy with his future job as an NBA GM.
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May 12, 2015 06:48
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Looks like Simmons is probably done at ESPN.quote:ESPN president John Skipper would not comment at this time on whether and if @BillSimmons would appear again on an ESPN platform. quote:"It would be incorrect to say this was about money." -John Skipper on @BillSimmons
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May 12, 2015 15:43
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Although ESPN seems to know what they want prioritized. quote:Richard Deitsch @richarddeitsch · 12m 12 minutes ago Gotta keep your talentless, race-baiting jackasses in the company.
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May 12, 2015 15:50
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