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Default Settings posted:symbology https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lG_OezlTZ1A Though in this instance you probably just meant to use the word "symbols."
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May 11, 2015 18:10
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This is seriously a proclick. vvvvvv Yeah the unwillingness of the Sheriff to share info might have something to do with his repeated evidence spoilation actions, even after he was warned. He had a camera, a photo of a wallet would have gotten them out there. He really seemed intent on bring death souvenirs back. I Greyhound fucked around with this message at 18:52 on May 11, 2015 |
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May 11, 2015 18:17
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The Death Valley Germans thing was really interesting, but I was let down by the lack of resolution at the end, and I was starting to suspect the guy who wrote it was kind of an rear end in a top hat.
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May 11, 2015 18:22
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The guy seems pretty full of himself judging from his writing, a touch of the 'sperg is detectable and he seems to have a Holmes-complex. Other than that it was interesting.
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May 11, 2015 20:16
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Ehhhh. I mean, part of it is his writing style. But the fact is, he is personally and entirely responsible for solving a missing persons case, and it's pretty clear that rather than being grateful, the local sheriffs office was maybe just a bit peevish that a random "enthusiast" accomplished what they had not. Importantly, by developing a theory of events that they had not considered. I'm sure sheriffs and police departments all over the place have to deal with all kinds of cranks and crackpot "enthusiasts" butting into investigations, tampering with evidence, and generally being a huge pain in the rear end. But this guy is at least a trained search & rescue guy, working as part of an organized S&R group, in that area. He was meticulous about his recordkeeping, usually took extreme care not to tamper with evidence, and he kept the authorities in the loop with everything he was doing. At the very least, it's an entertaining mystery story. I've read and watched a few different shows/stories/books about people who get in trouble in survival situations, and then either live or die. It's usually struck me that while the ones who died often made several boneheaded decisions, often those decisions were based not on being really stupid, but rather, on a simple lack of critical information. Usually the "stupid" part is just people not being aware of a risk they're taking, or of conditions they're entering. Once that mistake is made, they then often make a series of decisions that, for that person, in that moment, "make sense" in some kind of way. It's a mistake to just assume they're idiots. This otherhand.org guy understood that. He started with the assumption that the Germans' big mistake was not knowing the road conditions they were heading into, and then the one additional mistake they made was not realizing that a military base in a remote part of death valley would just be a big empty abandoned hunk of wilderness, rather than a european-style installation with roads, guards, buildings, etc. Pretty much everything else they did was based on reasonable logic; they sought easy routes through the terrain, sought the fastest/most direct route to help once they knew they were lost, used the terrain to find places where they could see as much as possible, carried liquids with them, etc. He also gives credit to the fact that the main reason he was able to develop this theory was because other likely theories - and likely directions of travel - had already been eliminated by previous searchers. So it's not like he showed up to an untouched crime scene and then single-handedly figured the whole thing out. He leads by giving a ton of credit to a couple of other people who supplied him with all kinds of information and evidence that helped him develop his theory of the event. Anyway. I found it a really interesting read.
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May 11, 2015 20:28
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Leperflesh posted:the local sheriffs office was maybe just a bit peevish that a random "enthusiast" accomplished what they had not I also think there's an element of "civilian creating work for no particular reason". The missing persons are definitely 10 years dead, no foul play is suspected, and the author is not related in any way and has no stake. Best case scenario (for the sheriff's office) is that this guy hikes around in the back country and doesn't get lost or otherwise go missing. Finding the bones and other evidence means they have to spend time/money/energy for the benefit of the family who'd shown no interest and probably just want to forget about the whole ordeal. They'd prefer to devote those resources to actual living persons. Worst case scenario is they have to S+R the author and whoever else he gets involved. It's a really neat story and makes for great reading but it's not hard to see why the sheriff's office would be annoyed about the whole thing.
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May 11, 2015 20:55
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I read that story, and the one about the 71-year old man who wandered into the desert to die. The author seems like a pretty cool guy to me. He gives credit where it's due, and even said that he's just plain frustrated when dealing with the Inyo County Sheriff's Department. Here's the last bit in that story:quote:The real joy in all this was working with Jack Freer, and indirectly, the Carson City Sheriff’s Office. My relationships with other agencies when doing this sort “unofficial” searching is usually cool at best and sometimes downright adversarial. Information is power and agencies like to hold on to it. It couldn’t have been more the opposite in this case. Whatever we asked for in the way of reports or background information, Jack made it happen. And after we found Norman, the Carson City Sheriff’s Office treated us very, VERY well. Perhaps that was in fact an unfortunate thing. Because now we know how well it can work, and the usual agency bureaucratic bullshit now seems so much more annoying.
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May 11, 2015 21:08
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evilneanderthal posted:I also think there's an element of "civilian creating work for no particular reason". The missing persons are definitely 10 years dead, no foul play is suspected, and the author is not related in any way and has no stake. He also mentions at one point that the FBI was briefly involved (because it involved a potential homicide investigation of foreign nationals). TV shows and movies have taught me that local law enforcement hates it when the feds come in and step on their toes, and since everything on TV is true and real, I assume this is another reason for the local sheriffs to be annoyed. I really think it's not so much that they treated him badly, as that they just cut him out of the loop. There's no legal mandate for law enforcement to spend their time helping local amateurs solve decades-old mysteries, of course. They obviously should be working with the local community, especially when they can identify genuinely helpful and productive individuals to engage with, so the shittiness is obviously where specific members of law enforcement seem unwilling or uninterested in doing that. In the long run, having those contacts makes you better at law enforcement. But in the short run, it means carving time out of your no doubt underfunded and overburdened staff's time to engage with people, answer their requests for info, etc. and that does carry with it an immediate and quantifiable cost. I can understand where it comes from and that it's common, even while I recognize that it actually harms the long-term goals of the agency. As for the idea that the sheriff would have preferred the cold case stay cold: I kind of doubt that. Solving old mysteries makes for good law enforcement press. What makes for bad press (from the point of view of the county sheriff) is when someone else solves an old mystery that your department apparently failed to solve, especially if the news articles point out that they way the mystery was solved, was by searching an area you dismissed because you weren't smart enough to think of why the missing people could have gone that way. If the info had come anonymously and quietly to the sheriff's office, so that they could go out and lay claim to having solved the mystery themselves based on "new evidence" or whatever, I bet they'd have been a lot happier about it, irrespective of the work generated.
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May 11, 2015 21:25
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Leperflesh posted:But the fact is, he is personally and entirely responsible for solving a missing persons case, and it's pretty clear that rather than being grateful, the local sheriffs office was maybe just a bit peevish that a random "enthusiast" accomplished what they had not. Importantly, by developing a theory of events that they had not considered.
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May 11, 2015 21:48
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Thanks to this thread I get lots of cool youtube recommendations. There's not much Everest activity at the moment so I thought someone might appreciate these. This one is some crazy dudes climbing a ridiculously difficult wall while screaming. According to the video/comments it is the hardest climb ever. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1P97VVt6_k This is a good national geographic talk about a few climbing trips from Alex Honnold, Mark Synnott, and Jimmy Chin. Very entertaining! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFfTHoJ9khs
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May 11, 2015 22:01
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pookel posted:It's pretty clear that that's how HE saw it, anyway. By that point, I was starting to doubt his reliability as a narrator. "Well, they told me not to touch evidence, and I promised I wouldn't, so I brought the wallet out ...." Yep, it's obvious they felt slighted by the authorities so it's kinda hard to know what to believe there. But basically the dude got incredibly lucky, though it wasn't completely blind luck to be fair*. But honestly it's silly to say the people in charge weren't smart enough to come up with his theory, it's just that there's limited resources to find people, particularly when it is almost 100% certain they are dead. They (most likely) searched the ares where it would be reasonable to find survivors, but at some point you have to call it a day. *Although it did work out here, his methods for the search are actually pretty bad for locating survivors. His whole thing of trying to find the perfect theory that explains all the evidence is a common mistake- theories that explain all the evidence are almost always wrong because they are working with (and overfitting) noisy data. The usual method is to combine theories about possible paths the missing object could take with the probability of finding the object given it is actually there. This is very common in ocean searches, because the knowledge of the crash area's ocean currents at the time can be used to form a reasonable hypothesis. But it also works here too, you figure out the most plausible routes and work from there. In this case though, you also add in the probability of finding the person alive given they are actually there and then search the region where the intersection of the probabilities is the highest. Fun read but there's a lot of 'just-so' story in there, particularly when he starts talking about how the Germans might have saw similar tracks that he did or the military installation thing. It's very likely a lot of the story lined up with theory by complete coincidence. For every theory like this there's the thousand that don't get written about because they went nowhere. Leperflesh posted:In the long run, having those contacts makes you better at law enforcement. But in the short run, it means carving time out of your no doubt underfunded and overburdened staff's time to engage with people, answer their requests for info, etc. and that does carry with it an immediate and quantifiable cost. I can understand where it comes from and that it's common, even while I recognize that it actually harms the long-term goals of the agency. I think you bought the narrative a little too hard.
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May 11, 2015 23:27
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Norton posted:
I Greyhound fucked around with this message at 00:07 on May 12, 2015 |
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May 11, 2015 23:48
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Meatwave posted:We're coming up on K2 season and Garrett Madison is making a bigger expedition this year. It looks like he's running another guided team, which is always an interesting situation for K2. Does each mountain have its own season?
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May 11, 2015 23:56
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I Greyhound posted:Why even bother with clipping into a safety line if you're too stupid to wear a helmet? Nearly any fall in which the line arrests you ends with you dying from your bare head slamming into the rock face. That's what I was thinking. Every time they slip, whoever is belaying them lets them fall like 40 feet before arresting them.
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May 12, 2015 00:04
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I Greyhound posted:Why even bother with clipping into a safety line if you're too stupid to wear a helmet? Nearly any fall in which the line arrests you ends with you dying from your bare head slamming into the rock face. uh... because hitting your head without a helmet is a maybe, but hitting the ground without a rope isn't?
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May 12, 2015 00:31
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tsa posted:Yep, it's obvious they felt slighted by the authorities so it's kinda hard to know what to believe there. But basically the dude got incredibly lucky, though it wasn't completely blind luck to be fair*. But honestly it's silly to say the people in charge weren't smart enough to come up with his theory, it's just that there's limited resources to find people, particularly when it is almost 100% certain they are dead. They (most likely) searched the ares where it would be reasonable to find survivors, but at some point you have to call it a day. He's explaining his own line of thinking. The burro tracks that might look like human tracks? He explains why he thinks the Germans might have seen them, and that that might have made them think they were using a human trail rather than a game trail. But the presence of those tracks wasn't critical to his theory. His methods for the search area were specifically not for looking for survivors. He was there years after they had gone missing. The guy is trained in search and rescue, I think he understands the difference. His thing wasn't trying to find "the perfect theory" - it was trying to find any theory that would explain the Germans going somewhere that hadn't already been searched. He says as much, explicitly. The guy pretty clearly thinks that the fact that law enforcement agencies give up after it's clear no survivors are going to be found is, at best, unfortunate. He's got a kind of tunnel vision there, as if law enforcement hasn't got other priorities, or as if the expense of a search for the remains of people who are definitely dead is somehow justifiable with no limit. I don't think that's reasonable and I disagree with him on that point. But the entire point of his narrative is to describe how he started with what everyone else had done, a bunch of info from a couple of experts who shared their data, and then looked at the unexplored parts of the map - areas the original searchers dismissed as not worthy of being searched - and tried to come up with reasons why the Germans might have gone there. He succeeded. You can't really argue with that success. You could argue that all the theorizing was wrong, some how, and he found them only because there was only those areas left to look, and he looked there... but why hadn't anyone else looked there, in the intervening years? And if his explanation for their movements is wrong, what other explanation could there be? Do you think the Germans abandoned their car and, instead of backtracking the road they drove in on, took off into desolate wilderness because they thought it seemed like fun? I'm not "buying the narrative," so much as I'm willing to extend at least some small amount of deference to a guy who is trained and active in mountain search and rescue, has decades of experience in the immediate area, and went to great lengths to be systematic and careful in his search. I don't see any special reason to discount his story, beyond perhaps some minor details he might have gotten wrong or forgotten about.
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May 12, 2015 00:43
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Nocheez posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lG_OezlTZ1A No, maps are pretty much the only case where the word 'symbology' is correct. Specifically, the word 'symbology' refers to the the visual language used to convey meaning in a map. All fully featured GIS (map-making) software will have a 'symbology' panel that allows the user to chose what icons, colours, lines, patterns and/or gradients are used to represent a given feature or continuous field. Source: I go to school to learn how to make maps.
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May 12, 2015 00:54
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Leperflesh posted:You could argue that all the theorizing was wrong, some how, and he found them only because there was only those areas left to look, and he looked there... but why hadn't anyone else looked there, in the intervening years? And if his explanation for their movements is wrong, what other explanation could there be? Do you think the Germans abandoned their car and, instead of backtracking the road they drove in on, took off into desolate wilderness because they thought it seemed like fun? His theory is plausible and fits the evidence, if the narrator is reliable, which is difficult to verify. For example, when the sheriff's office calls out of courtesy to let him know about the (possible) location of the bones of the children (maybe), he immediately dismisses it. We don't know how much of his story is accurate, not to mention other evidence that he may have overlooked or which might have been withheld from him deliberately. Etc. The whole story has elements of concern trolling. Why doesn't the police department care as much as I do? Probably because they have a job to do and helping some rando play desert detective isn't part of it.
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May 12, 2015 01:51
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Anyone remember James Kim, the TechTV guy who made the wrong turn
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May 12, 2015 02:30
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I definitely saw both sides of that while reading it. If I ever had the time and income I would love to get into SAR. Nothing better than knowing that if you're lost and alone people are coming to find you.
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May 12, 2015 02:39
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So are people still going to climb the mountain this year or what?
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May 12, 2015 02:47
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Nooner posted:So are people still going to climb the mountain this year or what? China closed their side, the major climbing companies canceled their expeditions. I don't remember if Nepal ever got the hint and shut it all down. Though they might leave it open in order to let two years of climbing permits expire.
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May 12, 2015 02:49
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Cojawfee posted:China closed their side, the major climbing companies canceled their expeditions. I don't remember if Nepal ever got the hint and shut it all down. Though they might leave it open in order to let two years of climbing permits expire. Probably. The last word from Nepal was that the sherpas all basically said "gently caress this poo poo", but if Nepal-the-government said anything it's not been posted here yet. Given the massive amount of money they've probably lost from tourism and two consecutive lost climbing seasons (even before we start talking rebuilding costs), I'd be surprised if they extended the permits again.
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May 12, 2015 02:53
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evilneanderthal posted:His theory is plausible and fits the evidence, if the narrator is reliable, which is difficult to verify. For example, when the sheriff's office calls out of courtesy to let him know about the (possible) location of the bones of the children (maybe), he immediately dismisses it. Yeah. I like the guy's writing, and I would be equally annoyed at being shut out by the authorities, but after the narrator emailed a friend a scan of that lady's driving license, which the friend subsequently leaked to the media, after being told explicitly not to share any details, any good investigator would stop giving this guy case info. I'm not sure I buy the military base theory, though he was clearly right about checking the last unsearched areas.
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May 12, 2015 03:56
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ReagaNOMNOMicks posted:So the step-parents died and the kids survived for some time and then died?
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May 12, 2015 04:00
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Doctor Schnabel posted:Christ, what a nightmare We don't actually know that. It could have been the other way around. Or they might have simply gotten split up - the parents leave the kids behind while trying to find help, the kids get scared and go out to try and find them, the parents return and the kids are gone. Without the authorities sharing the evidence found at the site where the kids' bones were found, it's pretty tough to piece together a story anyone can be sure of. All we know is that the two kids were found some distance from where the two adults were found. But uh... yeah no matter what went down, it was doubtless a nightmare for all four of them.
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May 12, 2015 04:22
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If I die outside somewhere I hope some internet nerd solves the mystery of my bones
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May 12, 2015 04:36
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EXTREME INSERTION posted:If I die outside somewhere I hope some internet nerd solves the mystery of my bones The inheritor of my will will be required to set up a geocaching game with my bones, with my skull as the final prize
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May 12, 2015 04:41
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MOVIE MAJICK posted:Does each mountain have its own season? Nepal and Pakistan have different seasons. The summer monsoon hits Nepal hard June through September, so you basically can't climb for those months. April/May are the best time to climb the Himayala, with another brief window in October before it gets too cold, that's not early as good since there's hardly any time for acclimatization. There's no monsoon in Pakistan, so you can climb all summer. June/July/August are the best months - Pakistan's mountains are generally colder than Nepal's, so the climbing window isn't as wide.
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May 12, 2015 04:44
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If you think about it, being eaten by mountain lions is like being eaten by a giant house cat. The circle of life
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May 12, 2015 04:48
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Regardless of his issues, S&R guy is pretty cool. Reading the one about the old guy who walked into the desert now, earlier I read the German one and the one where he uses similar methods to find an Area 51 A-12 crash site and finds all kinds of spy plane parts and army juice cans and poo poo.
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May 12, 2015 05:53
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Nocheez posted:Though in this instance you probably just meant to use the word "symbols." Ironically that exactly drives home the point of my post regarding the map: Guy might not have read many US road maps before, ends up "translating" it based on some wrong assumptions and misinterpretations of its content. And then he gets lost.
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May 12, 2015 08:04
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So looks like a big aftershock hit, reports of 7.1. All those people who wanted to keep climbing and got angry after the season was shut down must be reconsidering.
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May 12, 2015 08:26
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Bensa posted:So looks like a big aftershock hit, reports of 7.1. All those people who wanted to keep climbing and got angry after the season was shut down must be reconsidering. USGS had 7.4 listed. Edit: with regard to Everest this one is centered a lot closer so it might have been even worse for the climbers.
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May 12, 2015 08:31
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Bensa posted:So looks like a big aftershock hit, reports of 7.1. All those people who wanted to keep climbing and got angry after the season was shut down must be reconsidering. Upgraded to 7.4 already. 
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May 12, 2015 08:33
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This quake very close to Everest base camp.
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May 12, 2015 08:34
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Pale Ale posted:This quake very close to Everest base camp. Yeah. Namche Bazar. I just fired up Google Earth. Looks like it's about 16 miles away from Everest. Edit: Ah, USGS says 68km west of Namche Bazar. Still close. Meatwave fucked around with this message at 08:42 on May 12, 2015 |
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May 12, 2015 08:39
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Was there anyone stupid enough to have stayed on Everest? Even the sherpas should have been clear of this one shouldn't they?
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May 12, 2015 08:40
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Pale Ale posted:This quake very close to Everest base camp. The people higher on the death pool rub their hands in anticipation
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May 12, 2015 08:41
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So are dudes at basecamp but not climbing higher or is basecamp evacuated too?
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May 12, 2015 08:42
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