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Graendal was a famous ascetic, a person renowned for her piety and her renunciation of worldly possessions and concerns. Which makes her turn to the Shadow to indulge in the worst of decadence and sensuality one of the most NO gently caress YOU DAD I DO WHAT I WANT of any of the Forsaken that I can think of.
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Apr 4, 2015 20:28
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Ika posted:I thought graendel (E: I think I was thinking of semirhage) was a doctor and was already convicted of being needlessly sadistic during her treatment of patients before the war of power / bore / etc. So she didn't have many other places to turn to. No, that was Semirhage. Mesaana was a teacher. And Aginor was a biologist I think? I mean, I love all the female Forsaken, they're amazing characters. Its just that they all have terrible origin stories. I would totally subscribe to the Lews Therin being a tremendous jerk theory. I can see it.
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Apr 5, 2015 15:30
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DarkHorse posted:Graendal was a famous ascetic, a person renowned for her piety and her renunciation of worldly possessions and concerns. I thought the implication here was that the Dark One actually could draw out the worst in people*, like an actual thing/power/influence he possessed like a very very very slow turning to the shadow sort of thing, as long as the bore went unplugged. Or that's the impression I get from that long descent their society undergoes following the bore but before the whole world war thing, where everyone turns into cackling cartoon villains who enjoy a bit of good bloodsport Not that she wasn't a terrible person to begin with, of course  Semirhage and Balthamel were the Forsaken who were unrepentant assholes way before the bore was drilled rather than just arrogant and prideful in general (i.e, every Aes Sedai ever). *Channelers in particular got an easy time catching that bug, due to the power connection... remember to protect your open wifi networks kids.
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Apr 7, 2015 19:30
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The stuff we saw from the future depressed me. gently caress the Seanchan and their lovely army. If only Tuon had succumbed to evil-Rand and not had to make a deal. 
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Apr 7, 2015 19:45
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GreyPowerVan posted:The stuff we saw from the future depressed me. gently caress the Seanchan and their lovely army. If only Tuon had succumbed to evil-Rand and not had to make a deal. The last book seems to indicate that they took steps to ensure that future doesn't happen though.
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Apr 7, 2015 20:02
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Ika posted:The last book seems to indicate that they took steps to ensure that future doesn't happen though. True, but it still seems more likely since they are probably more powerful. It appears that their armies didn't get decimated as much as everyone elses. Of course, it will be far in the future, giving the free people time to recover. Eh.
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Apr 7, 2015 20:49
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GreyPowerVan posted:True, but it still seems more likely since they are probably more powerful. It appears that their armies didn't get decimated as much as everyone elses. Of course, it will be far in the future, giving the free people time to recover. Eh. The seanchen are having a full blown N way civil war with damane back home. There won't be much help coming from there, and after mat and the last battle the armies present in randland aren't that strong. Also, the main thing is in the original future the aiel were marginalized by not having a purpose and going back into the waste. Now they will be acting as a police force and be in constant contact with all the other countries.
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Apr 7, 2015 21:43
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For those curious, Leigh Butler is doing a Wheel of Time re-reread on tor.com here: http://www.tor.com/features/series/wot-reread She mainly tries to pick up things she missed in her first reread, when TGS, TOM and AMOL weren't out yet. It's pretty nice, and she did catch quite a bit of foreshadowing that I missed. She's nearly to the end of Book 1 now for those who are interested.
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Apr 7, 2015 23:06
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Torrannor posted:For those curious, Leigh Butler is doing a Wheel of Time re-reread on tor.com here: http://www.tor.com/features/series/wot-reread Re-reread. This is funny. The site is broken and will say the latest post is in May of last year, but if you scroll down it will show up fine.
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Apr 8, 2015 12:19
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GreyPowerVan posted:Re-reread. This is funny. The site is broken and will say the latest post is in May of last year, but if you scroll down it will show up fine. quote:MOST RECENT POST ???
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Apr 9, 2015 02:17
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Verus posted:??? I think I had some kind of old cached version from when I was reading it before, because I just now checked and it's fine now. 
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Apr 9, 2015 19:24
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DarkHorse posted:Graendal was a famous ascetic, a person renowned for her piety and her renunciation of worldly possessions and concerns. A decent portion of Graendals decadence was an act designed to make her appear predictable and weak.
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Apr 10, 2015 11:33
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Blind Melon posted:A decent portion of Graendals decadence was an act designed to make her appear predictable and weak. Yeah, her POV chapters in the later books made me think that she was actually the most dangerous of the forsaken.
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Apr 21, 2015 08:33
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GreyPowerVan posted:Yeah, her POV chapters in the later books made me think that she was actually the most dangerous of the forsaken. She killed or arranged to be killed at least 3 Forsaken, and that's pretty impressive. Top 3 on the scoreboard is like Rand, Graendal, Moiraine. Ok let's break this down: Ishamael - Rand Moridin - Rand Aginor - Rand Osan'gar - Elza Penfell Balthamel - Someshta (The Green Man) Aran'gar - Graendal-Rand Demandred - Lan Sammael - Graendal-Rand Rahvin - Nynaeve-Rand Lanfear - Moiraine Cyndane - Perrin Graendal - Aviendha Semirhage - Rand Be'lal - Moiraine Mesaana - Egwene Asmodean - Graendal Moghedien - gonna chalk this up to Nynaeve Hessalam - Shanan (a sul'dam) VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE fucked around with this message at 16:48 on Apr 21, 2015 |
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Apr 21, 2015 16:42
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I just realized that it's pretty much implied that Demandred's personal strategy at The Last Battle was partly Graendal's doing too.
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Apr 21, 2015 17:13
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After reading that list I still am shocked Mat never got to kill a Forsaken. I figured he would've been perfect fodder to defeat a female channeling Forsaken but I guess the power the Dark Lord gave to them might have negated his medallion. I distinctly remember when the one Forsaken came back as a woman that Mat was going to die to them because he was going to assume it was a woman channeler and be proven dead wrong by Balefire. Glad that never happened. Whew.
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Apr 21, 2015 17:42
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Hunky Joe posted:After reading that list I still am shocked Mat never got to kill a Forsaken. I figured he would've been perfect fodder to defeat a female channeling Forsaken but I guess the power the Dark Lord gave to them might have negated his medallion. I don't remember this but apparently the medallion protects Mat from saidin (and specifically, from Aran'gar). Not sure about the True Power though; my guess is no.
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Apr 21, 2015 18:28
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McNerd posted:I don't remember this but apparently the medallion protects Mat from saidin (and specifically, from Aran'gar). Not sure about the True Power though; my guess is no. I thought Rhavin had set a trap for Rand who warped everyone in and fried them all with lightning until Rand balefired him and everyone was resurrected, Mat included. I recall Rand thinking something along the lines of "I guess that means Mat isn't protected against Saidin" Unless that was the True Power too but I thought Rand jut chalked it up to inverted weaves.
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Apr 21, 2015 18:51
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Hunky Joe posted:I thought Rhavin had set a trap for Rand who warped everyone in and fried them all with lightning until Rand balefired him and everyone was resurrected, Mat included. Mat is vulnerable to the side effects of other things being hit by balefire, the same way he's vulnerable if you use the Power to pick up a rock and throw it at him. But if you actually hit Mat with a balefire beam or some other weave, then he shrugs that off. edit: Oh, you're saying how did Rahvin kill Mat in the first place? I think a building fell on him or something. final edit: Looking around online, it seems like lightning struck near him (but must not have hit him directly). McNerd fucked around with this message at 19:29 on Apr 21, 2015 |
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Apr 21, 2015 19:21
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Mat does have the honor of being the guy that finally puts and end to that drat gholam. Herrid, what did you discover 
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Apr 21, 2015 19:38
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GreyPowerVan posted:Yeah, her POV chapters in the later books made me think that she was actually the most dangerous of the forsaken. She was one of the most dangerous. I think there are three tiers of Forsaken: Pathetic, mediocre and dangerous. Pathetic: Asmodean was a joke even among the Forsaken. The most he did was giving Couladin the dragon tattoo. That created a huge problem that would trouble our heroes until book 11, but he probably did it because Lanfear told him to do it. Other than that, he gave lessons to Rand and got killed by Graendal. Aginor wasn't dangerous personally, though he was stated to be the second strongest male channeler of the Forsaken. But he got killed easily at the Eye of the World, and never did anything useful after being revived as Osan'gar. His biggest feat was creating most of the shadowspawn in his role as chief biologist of the Shadow in the Age of Legends. He gets killed by Verin! Balthamel was killed just as easily as Aginor, and Aran'gar did nothing more than killing a few Aes Sedai and one Asha'man, freeing Moghedien, and giving Egwene headaches. Then he lets Graendal sacrifice him to Rand. Be'lal posed as a Tairen high lord and was shot in the back by Moiraine. Moghedien tried so hard, but she basically failed spectacularly every time. She tries to get the male a'dam and loses a one power duel to Nynaeve in the process. She tears Birgitte out of the World of Dreams, but that proves to be both beneficial to the heroes (because Birgitte is awesome and a true asset) and temporary, because it didn't sever her connection to the Horn of Valere, as seen in AMOL. Then she gets captured by Nynaeve and plays a similar teacher role to the girls as Asmodean did, until she was freed by Aran'gar. That gets her into trouble with the Dark One, and after being tortured and raped by Shaidar Haran she becomes the slave to Moridin. Even then she can't do anything right, she tries to balefire Nynaeve but fails to kill her, with that event being responsible for Nynaeve losing her block on channeling when she is not angry. Good job! Then she played spy during the last battle but of course failed again and was made damane after the Dark One is sealed. Mediocre: Rahvin at least did something, by using compulsion on Morgase and thus creating a host of problems for Andor. He is the main culprit for the length of the Elayne-becomes-queen-arc, but in the end he was at most an inconvenience, and Rand simply killed him. Sammael became a member of the Council of Nine in Illian, had a few of his darkfriends attack Rand in a camp full of Aiel, and lobbed a few fireballs at him during the battle for Cairhien. He meddled with the Shaido and scattered them across Randland, which was a lot more effective at creating chaos than anything he did before. But that's the only significant thing he did, after that he fought Rand in Shadar Logoth and was fried by Mashadar. Semirhage was probably personally a dangerous opponent, but narrowly misses the next tier on account of being too unsuccessful in what she did. She tried to get Tuon under her thumb but Tuon isn't having it (why didn't she use compulsion?). When Mat takes Tuon, she murders the entire imperial court in Seanchan and starts a huge civil war, which probably caused more death and chaos than anything the other Forsaken do in Randland. But the Last Battle isn't fought in Seanchan, so that's kind of wasted. Her plan to capture Rand wasn't bad, but it ultimately failed, even if Rand lost his hand in it. Her capturing Rand with the Domination Band really messed him up, but in the end he does overcome his dark side, and she got killed for it. Lanfear deserves special mention for being the one who freed the Dark One in the Age of Legends. But after that, she didn't do too much. Her adventures with Rand and her undercover meeting with the rest of the main cast is weird and mostly without lasting consequences, but then the Shadow was still in it's exploration phase. She is probably the main culprit for starting the Shaido mess in the first place, but she also gets Rand a male Forsaken to teach him channeling. Her obsession with Les Therin/Rand led to her getting trapped with the Finns after the events in Cairhien, which caused Moridin to come and kill her so the Dark One can reincarnate her. After that she mainly busy with tasks for Moriding, but her plan in controlling Perrin in the Last Battle had a lot of merit and only failed when Perrin could overcome the compulsion due to the "Power of Love". Mesaana wasn't that dangerous either, for a reason I will come back to later. She commanded the head of the Black Ajah in the White Tower, presumably coming up with the plan to kidnap Rand. That went somewhat well, in that it creates serious psychological issues for Rand. Later she led the Black Ajah in the battle for the White Tower, but ultimately lost to Egwene. Her biggest impact on the series was probably orchestrating the fall of Siuan Sanche and creating the White Tower split. But she still can't escape the mediocre tier, because much of the credit goes to Alviarin. Alviarin deserves a special mention in this place. It's ridiculous that she wasn't made Forsaken alongside with Taim. Alviarin, as head of the Black Ajah, does most of Mesaana's work for her. She can probably take credit for most of the plotting to depose Siuan, working closely with Elaida. As Keeper of the Chronicles she controls Elaida, and is responsible for many of the bad things Elaida does as Amyrlin (like her proclamation regarding Rand). She lost her job as Keeper, and even though she doesn't get the support she should from Mesaana, even under these difficult circumstances she comes close to catching Seaine, Pevara, Saerin, Yukiri and Doesine, when those five had discovered Talene to be a member of the Black Ajah. She survived the battle for the White Tower and fought in the Last Battle, but ended up as prisoner in an Ogier stedding. She was still more dangerous and effective than Mesaana, and should have become a Forsaken together with Taim. Taim is the last in this tier of Forsaken. He brought hundreds of new dreadlords to the Shadow, but he himself wasn't that impressive. His "renegade" Asha'man failed to kill Rand, he couldn't turn Logain, got duped by Androl who stole the seals from him, and finally had a duel with Egwene that killed them both. Apart from turning the Black Power he wasn't really impressive. Dangerous. Demandred is dangerous if he can be bothered to act. He took control of Shara, which was a big help during the Last Battle. He probably recruited Taim, so he gets some credit for turning the Black Tower to the Shadow. He proved that he was one of the best generals in the whole world during the Last Battle, giving Mat huge trouble in trying to outfight him. He handled an upstart Taim like a misbehaving child, and he was able to defeat both Gawyn and Galad with relative ease. He also didn't seem to have the habit of so many other Forsaken, to do evil simply for the sake of being evil (or petty in many cases). But his obsession with Lews Therin was a big weakness, which indirectly led to his death when he dueled Lan. Graendal meddled in Arad Doman, but the fallout has basically been entirely positive for our heroes. She offed Asmodean, which took Rand's teacher away from him. She worked with Sammael and can take some credit for scattering the Shaido. But I fail to see why she is responsible for his death, they tried to deceive each other with neither being too successful. She did kill one Aes Sedai in Shadar Logoth before being driven off, which is more than most other Forsaken can say. She sacrificed Aran'gar to escape Rand's assault on her fortress, which was quite clever. Then she botched the attempt to kill Perrin, and is indirectly responsible for Mesaana's death as well, since neither Perrin nor the dreamspike would have been at the battle for the White Tower. She was quite useful in the Last Battle, forcing the four great captains to make many costly mistakes. And she does quite well in personal combat with Aviendha's group, and it's only bad luck that makes her compulsion backfire on herself. Ishamael is somewhat crazy, but at the same time he understood the Dark One better than the other Forsaken. He deserves special mention for being the main culprit of the conflict between Artur Hawkwing and the Aes Sedai, the collapse of Hawkwind's empire, and most of the things hosed up about the Seanchan. Then he did some World of Dreams fuckery with the heroes, and had some sort of confrontation with Rand in the Eye of the World. After that he had the duel with Rand in the sky over Falme, where he lost the battle but took much less damage than Rand. He had a final battle as Ishamael with Rand in the Heart of the Stone, where he was ultimately killed by getting impaled on Callandor. After being reincarnated as Moridin he helped Rand in his battle with Sammael, which I don't really understand. After that he mainly concentrated on leading the Shadow's forces and agents from his safe fortress in the Great Blight. He had his pets Moghedien and Lanfear go around coordinating darkfriends, and ordered the other Forsaken to attack Rand during the cleansing of Saidin, but didn't take part himself. As Nae'blis he developed a lot of the plans of the other Forsaken (for example Graendal's attack on Perrin), which weren't bad plans but mostly failed because of incompetent henchmen and the heroes being main characters. Even though he didn't manage to beat Rand in their personal battles, he was quite dangerous, with his insanity his biggest weakness. But his deeper understanding of the Dark One's true motivation puts him above basically all of the other Forsaken, who all blithely believe the lies that promise them eternal rule over the world after winning the Last Battle.
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Apr 21, 2015 20:36
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McNerd posted:Mat is vulnerable to the side effects of other things being hit by balefire, the same way he's vulnerable if you use the Power to pick up a rock and throw it at him. But if you actually hit Mat with a balefire beam or some other weave, then he shrugs that off. Okay it has been a long time since that book so I wasn't 100% certain if the bolt hit him or indirectly did. I knew that you could heave rocks at him with the power but not directly smack him with it. Jordan did have a hard on for that amulet.
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Apr 21, 2015 21:07
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Aginor being second strongest of the male Forsaken doesn't mesh too well with Ishamael/Demandred/The Dragon power scale but I'm sure there's some spergy breakdown on how that actually works out there  Graendel got played up a fair bit by Sanderson, I think (I faintly recall some interview or blog post stating he really liked her?), but she's pretty crafty for sure. I'd still rate Semirhage higher though, if not for getting totally screwed over by her own Boss (She was certainly the creepiest of the bunch). Graendel kinda hosed up a lot for team Shadow, if you think about it. Demandred, ugh 
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May 2, 2015 11:19
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Pimpmust posted:Aginor being second strongest of the male Forsaken doesn't mesh too well with Ishamael/Demandred/The Dragon power scale but I'm sure there's some spergy breakdown on how that actually works out there You can be strong without being smart, maybe that's Aginor. And yeah, Semirhage kind of got hosed over. Let's talk about Moghedian, AKA My master is locked away, now I can run and hide without being forced into battle.
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May 7, 2015 12:59
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McNerd posted:Mat is vulnerable to the side effects of other things being hit by balefire, the same way he's vulnerable if you use the Power to pick up a rock and throw it at him. But if you actually hit Mat with a balefire beam or some other weave, then he shrugs that off. So, channelers can't actually shoot lightning out of their fingers at people. What they do presumably is create air conditions such that a lightning bolt strikes at their target. That explains how Egwene can null lightning strikes by putting a lightning rod next to her position. I assume that when weaves come into contact with Matt they fall apart, but the lightning strikes aren't actually a weave, they're just normal bolts of lightning that appear because of channeler fuckery. A fireball is different because it's created and sustained by weaves, so when it hits someone wearing a talisman it falls apart. The heat existing prior to the fireball coming apart still does exist though, which explains why Galad is singed by the fireball he tanks in the last battle.
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May 7, 2015 14:18
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Alternatively it could've been the collateral damage from the lightning bolt, it didn't necessarily have to hit him. Maybe the concussion from the blast, or earth/debris thrown up by the strike did him in. It does mention he lost (at least one of) his boots, but I don't recall whether the book specifically states if he got directly zapped.
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May 7, 2015 15:03
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Where did you guys gather that Mat was immune to balefire? As far as I know no one used it against him.
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May 7, 2015 15:09
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That seems to just be an assumption based on how well the medallion works against other weaves. Balefire is a weave like any other, just with some time-fuckery involved so whos to say that it won't work?
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May 7, 2015 15:12
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Arrath posted:That seems to just be an assumption based on how well the medallion works against other weaves. Balefire is a weave like any other, just with some time-fuckery involved so whos to say that it won't work? A 'weave just like any other' but I always assumed it would definitely go through the medallion. The only person to counter balefire was Egwene and I guess Perrin in the wolf dream. I guess it's not stated that it would go through medallion so you may be right.
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May 7, 2015 15:14
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GreyPowerVan posted:A 'weave just like any other' but I always assumed it would definitely go through the medallion. The only person to counter balefire was Egwene and I guess Perrin in the wolf dream. Callandor was also able to deflect balefire. It was a different effect than simply unraveling the weave, but it's a precedent for items to stop it. And I think cuendillar was stated to be "immune" to balefire as well (otherwise it would have been trivial for the Black Ajah to break the Seven Seals while they were still in possession of the White Tower).
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May 7, 2015 20:07
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Torrannor posted:Callandor was also able to deflect balefire. It was a different effect than simply unraveling the weave, but it's a precedent for items to stop it. And I think cuendillar was stated to be "immune" to balefire as well (otherwise it would have been trivial for the Black Ajah to break the Seven Seals while they were still in possession of the White Tower). Its been ages since I read that book, but was rand in the real world or in the dream world when he deflected balefire?
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May 8, 2015 00:16
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Ika posted:Its been ages since I read that book, but was rand in the real world or in the dream world when he deflected balefire?
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May 8, 2015 00:41
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DarkHorse posted:Pretty sure it was Perrin in the dream world. I remember the caster being absolutely flabbergasted when he did it, because they thought they were a dream master and Perrin just made her look like a chump. Perrin definitely was in the dreamworld when he did it. I meant in rand's fight in the stone of tear he went through a bunch of random gateways, and I think some of them lead to the dreamworld, so I'm not sure whether he also was there when he deflected the balefire.
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May 8, 2015 01:00
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Ika posted:Perrin definitely was in the dreamworld when he did it. I meant in rand's fight in the stone of tear he went through a bunch of random gateways, and I think some of them lead to the dreamworld, so I'm not sure whether he also was there when he deflected the balefire. Whether Rand is there or not is really really confusing, because Ishy is using a shittonne of the True Power in that fight.
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May 8, 2015 16:26
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They were in the dreamworld when the balefire split happens, because Perrin looking for Faile in the dreamworld sees Rand run past.
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May 9, 2015 18:53
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Torrannor posted:After being reincarnated as Moridin he helped Rand in his battle with Sammael, which I don't really understand. The reasoning behind this is the Dark One was still running his "Have Rand blow everything up for him" long con, which happened to be working quite well at the time. Sammael was less valuable than Rand, so Sammael was the one who had to die.
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May 10, 2015 06:56
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RembrandtQEinstein posted:The reasoning behind this is the Dark One was still running his "Have Rand blow everything up for him" long con, which happened to be working quite well at the time. Sammael was less valuable than Rand, so Sammael was the one who had to die. To further this according to Ishy the Dark One has converted the Dragon to his own side before and in doing so a new hero has risen in his place. So, I think Darkfriends try to kill Rand early on because Ishamael is completely insane and thinks he's the Dark One. By TSR Darkfriends are trying a lot less hard to kill Rand and they all but stop after Lord of Chaos. The reason being that the Dark One doesn't /want/ Rand to die when he thinks either a) Rand will blow up the world b) Even if he doesn't, the Dark One still has a good shot of beating Rand. The point being that if Rand does get killed early, someone else will just rise up in his place and killing him will have been pointless. The winning scenario for the Dark One is Rand going into the Last Battle, mad beyond belief with his friends dead and little support otherwise. So yeah, in the end, Sammael is less valuable than a Rand that's set to lose.
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May 11, 2015 16:43
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Yorkshire Tea posted:To further this according to Ishy the Dark One has converted the Dragon to his own side before and in doing so a new hero has risen in his place. So, I think Darkfriends try to kill Rand early on because Ishamael is completely insane and thinks he's the Dark One. By TSR Darkfriends are trying a lot less hard to kill Rand and they all but stop after Lord of Chaos. The reason being that the Dark One doesn't /want/ Rand to die when he thinks either a) Rand will blow up the world b) Even if he doesn't, the Dark One still has a good shot of beating Rand. I don't think Ishamael was honest there. He is insane, after all. If a Dragon was turned fully to the Dark One, he would have joined with the DO and broken the wheel --- which means we wouldn't have made it to Rand's age.
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May 12, 2015 08:46
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Mad Hamish posted:No, that was Semirhage. Mesaana was a teacher. And Aginor was a biologist I think? Rand pretty much acknowledges this though. He has some POV in AMOL? where he thinks back on his mistakes in treating them like dirt. Torrannor posted:For those curious, Leigh Butler is doing a Wheel of Time re-reread on tor.com here: http://www.tor.com/features/series/wot-reread No don't loving read this ever. Leigh Butler is goddamned terrible and her first read through was a soapbox for her favourite SJW issues. Torrannor posted:Alviarin deserves a special mention in this place. It's ridiculous that she wasn't made Forsaken alongside with Taim. Alviarin, as head of the Black Ajah, does most of Mesaana's work for her. She can probably take credit for most of the plotting to depose Siuan, working closely with Elaida. As Keeper of the Chronicles she controls Elaida, and is responsible for many of the bad things Elaida does as Amyrlin (like her proclamation regarding Rand). She lost her job as Keeper, and even though she doesn't get the support she should from Mesaana, even under these difficult circumstances she comes close to catching Seaine, Pevara, Saerin, Yukiri and Doesine, when those five had discovered Talene to be a member of the Black Ajah. She survived the battle for the White Tower and fought in the Last Battle, but ended up as prisoner in an Ogier stedding. She was still more dangerous and effective than Mesaana, and should have become a Forsaken together with Taim. It's also worth mentioning that she was actively hunting Mesaana for her own reasons, and got reasonably close (the scene where she throws herself at Mesaana's feet and manages to force her head through the illusion to discern what her clothes look like)
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May 12, 2015 13:35
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I haven't bothered with the re-readthrough, but the first reread was fabulously entertaining - it's a great summary of the series, and she has some great commentaries. She is also, I suspect the sole reason why Brandon Sanderson decided to randomly insert to references to gay men in A Memory of Light; and quite possibly the breaking of Semirhage by spanking is a joke directed at her as well.
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May 12, 2015 13:50
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