|
tsa posted:Why post in a debate forum if you obviously hate debate? Like how pathetic. I felt like it was about time to start matching effort-level in my posts
|
#
?
May 12, 2015 00:46
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 7, 2024 00:00 |
|
|
tsa posted:I don't think you realize how many jobs are a couple dollars an hour away from being turned into a robot. You should look into that. Are you implying we should keep wages low to keep people working? Why? If $7.25/h isn't enough to live we're not doing anybody any favors by keeping them working.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2015 00:51
|
|
|
Like in the age where we are seeing impressive leaps in robotic technology and automation it's really shocking to me how many are going to latch themselves onto the dying ship that is the minimum wage. Advocate GMI or something that is actually going to help the poor. That's also the problem with all these studies people are trying to dig up, all of them are based on assumptions that are quickly becoming farcical. It's a pretty common problem with labor movements- all of the methods are based on the success of movements that happened before people had telephones. It's really silly when you think about it.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2015 00:51
|
|
|
tsa posted:Like in the age where we are seeing impressive leaps in robotic technology and automation it's really shocking to me how many are going to latch themselves onto the dying ship that is the minimum wage. Advocate GMI or something that is actually going to help the poor. I'm all for abolishing money as a concept altogether, but I believe that increasing the minimum wage will do more to help people in the short term than doing nothing (since that's what's going to happen if I go on rants about how money is pointless).
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2015 00:53
|
|
|
tsa posted:Like in the age where we are seeing impressive leaps in robotic technology and automation it's really shocking to me how many are going to latch themselves onto the dying ship that is the minimum wage. Advocate GMI or something that is actually going to help the poor. Maybe we'd just like to see something happen sometime in the next decade, rather than probably not in our lifetimes.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2015 00:53
|
|
|
VideoTapir posted:Maybe we'd just like to see something happen sometime in the next decade, rather than probably not in our lifetimes. --something said about pot legalization, gay marriage, black president, etc.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2015 00:53
|
|
|
tsa posted:I don't think you realize how many jobs are a couple dollars an hour away from being turned into a robot. You should look into that. This new Proxy Luddite movement is fascinating.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2015 00:56
|
|
|
Series DD Funding posted:--something said about pot legalization, gay marriage, black president, etc. Right, let's just ignore all the decades of work that went into making these things happen and just pretend like one day everyone decided to make one big sweeping change.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2015 00:58
|
|
|
tsa posted:Like in the age where we are seeing impressive leaps in robotic technology and automation it's really shocking to me how many are going to latch themselves onto the dying ship that is the minimum wage. Advocate GMI or something that is actually going to help the poor. I guess we definitely wouldn't want to find ourselves in a position where we don't have jobs anymore and because you only get to change the law one time we used up our one change on a minimum wage when instead the true path was to push the "jobs and robots" legislation of 2015. Or maybe we can cross that bridge when we get to it and in the meantime this is fine too. Just sayin' reignofevil fucked around with this message at 01:02 on May 12, 2015 |
|
#
?
May 12, 2015 00:58
|
|
|
Series DD Funding posted:--something said about pot legalization, gay marriage, black president, etc. Yes and I'm glad the at the possibility of the first two stopped people from doing anything else to improve those situations over the decades they've been working on them. I'm glad all those activists realized, "oh think of what will be available to us in the future I'm glad we don't want to achieve any marginal changes in the meantime in fear of harming our cause!"
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2015 00:58
|
|
|
tsa posted:I don't think you realize how many jobs are a couple dollars an hour away from being turned into a robot. You should look into that. That's happening right now anyway.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2015 01:00
|
|
|
ElCondemn posted:Right, let's just ignore all the decades of work that went into making these things happen and just pretend like one day everyone decided to make one big sweeping change. What work? I decided to support gay marriage last year and now look, almost the whole country allows it. Easy as cake. Also we're now arguing robots are the downside of minimum wage increases? Bad enough when it was just illegals taking my job, now it's robots!? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUQMvlH39XA The job is MINE you hear me! MINE! 
Mo_Steel fucked around with this message at 01:13 on May 12, 2015 |
|
#
?
May 12, 2015 01:08
|
|
|
Mo_Steel posted:What work? I decided to support gay marriage last year and now look, almost the whole country allows it. Easy as cake. Now the illegals are working with the robots? Where is this country heading? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lmlXZ_-320
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2015 01:14
|
|
|
VitalSigns posted:if you drove 65,000,000,0000 mph you'd destroy a whole city!" Quoting this from twenty pages ago because the extra zero at the end had me giggling like an idiot for a good five minutes. One of those things other people want to know what's funny but there is zero chance they'd get why you're laughing.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2015 01:15
|
|
|
Series DD Funding posted:--something said about pot legalization, gay marriage, black president, etc. Something said about these things decades ago. And these aren't things with a clear alternative other than the status quo.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2015 01:17
|
|
|
tsa posted:Like in the age where we are seeing impressive leaps in robotic technology and automation it's really shocking to me how many are going to latch themselves onto the dying ship that is the minimum wage. Advocate GMI or something that is actually going to help the poor. Maybe in a few decades when we're dealing with these crises, we'll all look back and say "gosh darnit, if only we hadn't raised the minimum wage in the 2010s, we wouldn't be dealing with this problem! Weren't we silly!" but I really, really doubt it.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2015 01:28
|
|
|
The world will literally end if we raise the minimum wage
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2015 01:39
|
|
|
Asking for honest good goonpinions here: should I invest in burger futures? The price is set to go up.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2015 02:09
|
|
|
exponentially, or linerarly?
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2015 02:27
|
|
|
it's gonna supersize.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2015 02:31
|
|
|
Trent posted:Quoting this from twenty pages ago because the extra zero at the end had me giggling like an idiot for a good five minutes. One of those things other people want to know what's funny but there is zero chance they'd get why you're laughing. Goddamnit. Now you've got me doing it too
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2015 03:12
|
|
|
Personally, I've been putting "unwilling to work for less than $15/hour" on my application for years now. I am unwilling to voluntarily sell my labor for less than that. I feel like that is the minimum amount of money I need to live the life I've been accustom to. Needless to say I've lost a lot of job opportunities over the last few years. Like for example, the last 5 unskilled labor jobs I applied to just flat out tossed my application aside and never called me back. All 5 of them ended up hiring either some teenage black kid, or a literal fresh off the boat Mexican who couldn't even speak English. I'm a 25 year old white male with a college degree. It really bugs me that I lost a job to a literal teenager/non-english speaker. I have literally every advantage possible over them. Older, more experienced, more education, more work history, references, a car for transportation to the job. It's really loving unfair that these people are allowed to voluntarily sell their labor for less than what I'm willing to charge. Anyways, as soon as this law gets passed I feel like I will never lose a job again. I mean honestly, why in the gently caress would anyone ever hire a black teenager or a Mexican immigrant over a 25 year old white male college graduate? Are you kidding me? There is no reason why I should be losing jobs to those people. This should never happen. $15 min wage is a great step forward. Hopefully it happens sooner rather than later. I really want to move out of my parents house.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2015 07:33
|
|
|
tsa posted:Yea, but extrapolating in a linear fashion is almost certainly a conservative estimate so it kinda fucks your argument- all the evidence points to it being an exponential increase. For gently caress's sake no it doesn't, we just spent 10 pages proving that nothing related to the minimum wage grows exponentially as a function of the minimum wage, and we all came to an agreement on the matter, and then you decided to trot on up and poo poo your pants in public tsa posted:Like in the age where we are seeing impressive leaps in robotic technology and automation it's really shocking to me how many are going to latch themselves onto the dying ship that is the minimum wage. Advocate GMI or something that is actually going to help the poor. Every single liberal in this thread would gladly throw out the minimum wage completely if we had a GMI already you illiterate moron, good loving luck getting that passed Maybe the best of all worlds is that we pass a minimum wage increase with the politicians that we have today and still try to garner support for a GMI with the politicians that we'll have tomorrow? "Do nothing until we've already achieved utopia" just feels like kind of a defeatist attitude to me, I dunno
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2015 09:17
|
|
|
It turned out that opponents to the minimum wage were just nihilists, funnily enough
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2015 09:20
|
|
|
GuyDudeBroMan posted:a literal fresh off the boat Mexican who couldn't even speak English Since when do Mexicans immigrate here by boat?
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2015 10:03
|
|
|
hey gang, wild opinion here, but i think poor people should be able to feed themselves, their families, and be able to handle any medical mishaps that come their way well see ya
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2015 13:01
|
|
|
QuarkJets posted:A) We're talking about permanent changes in labor costs, profitability, and potentially prices and staffing. This is all long term. None of my assumptions only hold in the short-term. Your conclusion that employers can't adjust pricing and/or staffing levels, so therefore they will take it in the margins, relies on those things to be constrained. But they are only constrained in the short term. That should be obvious. You've clearly read some stuff about economics but you have no idea how things actually work in business, or even how the supply/demand model you're referencing works, and that makes it hard to talk to you. QuarkJets posted:D) Yes, I explicitly said that a minimum wage increase will change labor costs. That's obvious. But it only really effects the bottom rungs here, in the US. GIven that we barely manufacturing anything anymore, it's unclear what your argument is meant to convey. You haven't provided any evidence to back up your claim that lower margins would be temporary. Higher minimum wage does not make automation cheaper, nor does it significantly change a supply/demand curve, so why would these other factors readjust significantly just to bring profit back to where it was? What mechanism causes these changes, and why? Take this, for instance. First, and you can verify this yourself in the May 2014 BLS survey, a $15 minimum wage reaches all the way up to about the 45th percentile of workers. That is not a change that is only going to affect the bottom rungs of the labor market. It's going to ripple up to raise costs for almost every input for almost every business. Second, costs are included in the abstraction that is the supply curve. When they change that's a shift in the curve. That's basic 101 stuff and you can confirm that in any text book. The mechanisms are various but dude it's not rocket science. If the cost increase is large companies won't have a choice but to raise prices and they're generally run by people who like money so they'll use that opportunity to charge even more. In normal times they'd be constrained by competition but if everyone's costs have gone up and stayed up that's not going to hold. When contracts come up you bid higher. When your customers reorder you edge their prices up. And if a customer switches because another company tried to charge them more? You offer them a little lower than they would have paid but more than you would have offred before. What are they going to do, switch back and pay even more? You're generally keeping an ear to the ground through various sources anyway so you know what your competitors are doing and they're doing the same thing. You might even play tennis with a colleague or chat after a chamber of commerce meeting.  Large companies will comission benchmarking studies from consulting firms that collect data industry wide and distribute the results. What do you think the purpose of that is? (I need a bigger devil icon)
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2015 13:40
|
|
|
wateroverfire posted:You've clearly read some stuff about economics but you have no idea how things actually work in business, or even how the supply/demand model you're referencing works, and that makes it hard to talk to you. 
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2015 13:58
|
|
|
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2015 13:59
|
|
|
What's the emoticon with the Ironicat that gets bigger and bigger? I can't find it.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2015 14:02
|
|
|
Gravel Gravy posted:What's the emoticon with the Ironicat that gets bigger and bigger? I can't find it. I was looking for that but couldn't find it either.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2015 14:02
|
|
|
Gravel Gravy posted:What's the emoticon with the Ironicat that gets bigger and bigger? I can't find it. It is a mystical spontaneous phenomena summoned by wateroverfire's posting.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2015 14:04
|
|
|
wateroverfire posted:Take this, for instance. First, and you can verify this yourself in the May 2014 BLS survey, a $15 minimum wage reaches all the way up to about the 45th percentile of workers. That is not a change that is only going to affect the bottom rungs of the labor market. It's going to ripple up to raise costs for almost every input for almost every business. Actually if you read the BLS data or knew anything about business supply chain management (I will give you the benefit of the doubt not being in the US), then you would realize that the majority of the people making less than $15/hour are end consumer facing food service, consumer service, or retail workers, with the notable exception being textile workers. Logistics is dominated by fixed costs and workers earn generally higher wages. Raw resource inputs are either imported or are dominated by fixed costs and higher wage labor for harvesting. Intermediate parts are imported or manufactured in facilities operated by workers earning generally higher than the proposed minimum. At worst you would see a marginal increase due to higher wages for non-production workers such as janitors or cafeteria food vendors.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2015 14:31
|
|
|
UPS and USPS are unionized on the delivery side of things. I think fedex 1099ed their delivery guys.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2015 14:33
|
|
|
archangelwar posted:consumer facing food service, consumer service, or retail workers, all businesses which would benefit from people having more money generally.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2015 14:34
|
|
|
I find it hilarious how y'all are posting about the GMI being politically infeasible while pretending a minimum wage hike has a snowball's chance in hell. Any legislation on the Federal level that interacts with the not-rich will only deliberately make life worse, either by cutting programs or deliberately making said programs less effective. It's more likely that the poor will be statutorily barred from suing in criminal court than helped by any American government.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2015 14:37
|
|
|
poor people already cannot sue in criminal court.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2015 14:38
|
|
|
tsa posted:Like in the age where we are seeing impressive leaps in robotic technology and automation it's really shocking to me how many are going to latch themselves onto the dying ship that is the minimum wage. Advocate GMI or something that is actually going to help the poor. GMI is just another welfare trap built to keep the poor, poor. Is that actually your goal here, to keep the poor in poverty forever? Because that's what the GMI gets you. Now, if you wanted to support a BI, most of us would get behind you. Hell, if a halfway decent BI was on the table, I don't think there'd be anyone here who wouldn't give up the minimum wage to see it happen.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2015 14:41
|
|
|
wateroverfire posted:I was looking for that but couldn't find it either. 
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2015 14:49
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 7, 2024 00:00 |
|
|
TwoQuestions posted:I find it hilarious how y'all are posting about the GMI being politically infeasible while pretending a minimum wage hike has a snowball's chance in hell. Didn't we just raise the minimum wage like 5 years ago? And didn't minimum wage increases just pass in the last election in 4 states that voted GOP?
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2015 14:52
|
|