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Ronwayne posted:
There were also highlights like that thread in which one guy proposed that perhaps Autocthohn had deserved to be bullied by the other Primordials, which somehow lead to someone, I think Lea, talking about how those who would disrupt the creative vision of the line or introduce fanon theories by becoming line developers... were his enemies. (This was primarily over Mage, but let's be honest: What WoD argument isn't ultimately about Mage?) That one might've been RPG net though. In general it just seemed like a pit though, at least from what I heard and occasionally saw.
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May 12, 2015 06:15
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Do tell. (I can only remember a vague annoyance, personally)
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e: doublepost
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May 12, 2015 06:20
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I remember something something from him about policing the fan base's views because otherwise since they recruit their writers from the fan base, fanon will become canon.
Ronwayne fucked around with this message at 07:05 on May 12, 2015 |
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May 12, 2015 06:58
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To be fair, Exalted is hardly the first or only RPG where yesterday's fans become tomorrow's writers (or linedevs).
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May 12, 2015 07:00
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Yes, but I don't think anyone else has such an obnoxious paternalistic tone of your future writers being a hostile entity that needs to be controlled.
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May 12, 2015 07:06
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Ronwayne posted:I remember something something from him about policing the fan base's view because otherwise since they recruit their writers from the fan base, fanon will become canon.
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May 12, 2015 07:20
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The thing is, he's right.
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May 12, 2015 07:22
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Ferrinus posted:The thing is, he's right. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjibEkDoXQc (Not meant as an attack, I just love that movie)
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May 12, 2015 07:26
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^Yeah, this is one of those things that makes you a bigger rear end in a top hat merely for trying. I'm going to say he's still wrong too on general principle.
Ronwayne fucked around with this message at 07:32 on May 12, 2015 |
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May 12, 2015 07:30
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No but he actually is right, and it's healthier for a game in general for the community that plays it to "get" it rather than understand it as a parody of itself. Exalted 2E actually was worse for lack of a clear vision expressed by its developers and understood by its fans.
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May 12, 2015 07:33
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Sorry, WW. The author is dead, dead, dead,.
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May 12, 2015 07:36
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Ronwayne posted:Sorry, WW. The author is dead, dead, dead,. Free Etherwind.
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May 12, 2015 07:41
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This isn't about the author, this is about the text. People who don't actually understand what makes something tick in the first place will do a poor job of elaborating on that thing, whether they're just talking about it with fellow fans, participating in it in the normal fashion (i.e. running or playing a roleplaying game), or god help us actually adding to it in an official capacity. If they were good at reading in the first place, they wouldn't really benefit from having stuff explained or corrected because they'd already understand that it isn't important for every single named NPC to have had a crucial hand in the delivery of the stolen Death Star plans. But, they're often not.
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May 12, 2015 07:41
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Ferrinus posted:This isn't about the author, this is about the text. People who don't actually understand what makes something tick in the first place will do a poor job of elaborating on that thing, whether they're just talking about it with fellow fans, participating in it in the normal fashion (i.e. running or playing a roleplaying game), or god help us actually adding to it in an official capacity. Are there karmic penalties for wrong-fun having? Will we be denied our rolls on the cosmic loot table? I mean if your point is that - at a certain point - bending the genre or context of a given setting to the point where it's just become some other setting, means you might as well be playing (that other setting) instead, fair enough. But come on, "the correct reading." Honestly. Nessus fucked around with this message at 07:50 on May 12, 2015 |
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May 12, 2015 07:44
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Ferrinus posted:This isn't about the author, this is about the text. People who don't actually understand what makes something tick in the first place will do a poor job of elaborating on that thing, whether they're just talking about it with fellow fans, participating in it in the normal fashion (i.e. running or playing a roleplaying game), or god help us actually adding to it in an official capacity. So when the fans use the product wrong, its their job to stop them?
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May 12, 2015 07:49
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Ronwayne posted:So when the fans use the product wrong, its their job to stop them?
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May 12, 2015 07:50
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Is there a place where we can submit our game sessions for analysis and confirmation that we are in fact "playing correctly?" Do we need to get authorization before buying supplement books, say? That seems like a robust business model.
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May 12, 2015 08:12
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Ferrinus posted:This isn't about the author, this is about the text. People who don't actually understand what makes something tick in the first place will do a poor job of elaborating on that thing, whether they're just talking about it with fellow fans, participating in it in the normal fashion (i.e. running or playing a roleplaying game), or god help us actually adding to it in an official capacity. You could very easily turn this around and say it's the writers' job to prevent ambiguity and misinterpretation of a work's text by writing it clearly and concisely in the first place, not trying to police fan interpretations after the fact. It's like a variation on the old saying of how if you keep running into assholes all day long, then maybe you're the rear end in a top hat...if your fanbase constantly "fails to understand" your work then the possibility strongly exists that you failed to do a good job of conveying your intended point, and your time could be better spent working to fix that problem at the source than putting a bandaid over the symptoms.
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May 12, 2015 08:27
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Nessus posted:Who determines the canonical reading of the text, though? Or the acceptable margins for orthodoxy? Is there some kind of a council we can appeal to? A Dorito Pope? Didn't you hear Ronwayne? The author is dead. It's not about appealing to an external authority, you just have to read. Kai Tave posted:You could very easily turn this around and say it's the writers' job to prevent ambiguity and misinterpretation of a work's text by writing it clearly and concisely in the first place, not trying to police fan interpretations after the fact. It's like a variation on the old saying of how if you keep running into assholes all day long, then maybe you're the rear end in a top hat...if your fanbase constantly "fails to understand" your work then the possibility strongly exists that you failed to do a good job of conveying your intended point, and your time could be better spent working to fix that problem at the source than putting a bandaid over the symptoms. Oh, definitely, and this is why e.g. 3E Charms are described in an emphatically different way that 2E Charms are. Unfortunately a lot of people still have that particular gremlin in their head and it doesn't actually hurt to help them banish it.
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May 12, 2015 08:33
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Ferrinus posted:Didn't you hear Ronwayne? The author is dead. It's not about appealing to an external authority, you just have to read.
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May 12, 2015 08:35
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The same thing that happens if you get some chargen math wrong: I materialize and execute you.
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May 12, 2015 08:37
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You fool! Now that you've materialized, you're vulnerable to our Tedious Pedant's Delight style.
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May 12, 2015 08:41
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Ferrinus posted:Oh, definitely, and this is why e.g. 3E Charms are described in an emphatically different way that 2E Charms are. Unfortunately a lot of people still have that particular gremlin in their head and it doesn't actually hurt to help them banish it. And yet one of the most common critiques I've heard about Ex3, even from people who like it, is how 3E's charms are still ambiguous and too wrapped up in "naturalistic language" for their own good. Plus, context matters. It's one thing to say "well okay, maybe if people aren't quite grasping something then you can drop by and try and help them figure out your intention, stuff like that happens," it's another thing to go "these people are my enemies," especially when you could very reasonably argue that "fans stage a takeover of an RPG line to try and enforce their own vision upon it" is a concise summary of how Ex3 came into being in the first place. And that one of the people in charge of Ex3 is a guy who, among other things, argues in favor of the BP/XP split so, y'know, maybe the fans who "aren't listening properly" have something like a good idea there.
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May 12, 2015 08:41
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Well when I do it, it's the correction and improvement of the original vision. When you do it, it's returning the line to its intended roots. But when THEY do it, they're loving it up with their 'BP/XP divides' and their 'Craft system that doesn't simulate Cookie Clicker'.
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May 12, 2015 08:44
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Nessus posted:You fool! Now that you've materialized, you're vulnerable to our Tedious Pedant's Delight style. You're already dead. Kai Tave posted:And yet one of the most common critiques I've heard about Ex3, even from people who like it, is how 3E's charms are still ambiguous and too wrapped up in "naturalistic language" for their own good. I'm not talking about actual game-mechanical clarity or rigorous templating at all. I'm talking about the explicit discussion on what it means to have a Charm, the way Charms are often described "this Charm represents a hero who can..." rather than "this Charm does...", etc. And that's just one aspect of the game - there's also not treating gods like robots or cartoon characters, paying closer attention to the mechanics of colonialism, etc.
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May 12, 2015 08:48
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Okay, and I'm saying that it strikes me as somewhat hypocritical and un self-aware to act like fan interpretation is in need of shepherding this way when the history of Exalted development across editions is one of inmates being elevated to run the asylum all according to their own ideas for what constitutes the "proper Exalted philosophy" rather than abiding by any sort of rigorously maintained bible or development guide. I mean, I can think this at the same time that I also think that Exalted's fanbase certainly has some kooky characters in it, to put it mildly, they aren't mutually exclusive viewpoints.
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May 12, 2015 08:57
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It's not hypocritical or un-self-aware to believe in, and work to spread, what you believe is the best vision of the game. It's sort of the basic psychic prerequisite for undertaking such a project at all. EDIT: I would actually say that pretty much all the flaws in 3E can be traced back to the writing team not having enough of a radical faith in their own vision and instead backsliding to lazy-but-comfortable legacy crap. Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 09:06 on May 12, 2015 |
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May 12, 2015 09:03
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Ferrinus posted:It's not hypocritical or un-self-aware to believe in, and work to spread, what you believe is the best vision of the game. It's sort of the basic psychic prerequisite for undertaking such a project at all.
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May 12, 2015 09:06
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All right, I think there's a qualitative difference between what you're outlining and the general sense of contempt that I feel Holden et al have for the fanbase of the game they've decided to step up and take over but I get the impression this discussion isn't going to go any further than us paraphrasing and restating our positions over and over so I'll call it good here.
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May 12, 2015 09:08
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Nessus posted:How is this best accomplished, in your opinion? By writing well! But this isn't mutually exclusive with interacting with the fanbase. I think the first edition of Exalted was indisputably enriched by all those extra mini-essays Grabowski wrote - but also by e.g. mini-essays Nephilpal wrote way, way later that could confirm for the reader that the reasoning behind some game element or other wasn't consonant with the greater whole of Exalted and could be safely jettisoned. As a personal anecdote, nothing so firmly convinced me that Mage: the Awakening's 1E rules-as-written Wisdom scale was best deleted as the then-developer's explanation of its specifics. Kai Tave posted:All right, I think there's a qualitative difference between what you're outlining and the general sense of contempt that I feel Holden et al have for the fanbase of the game they've decided to step up and take over but I get the impression this discussion isn't going to go any further than us paraphrasing and restating our positions over and over so I'll call it good here. Holden et al definitely have an unhealthy contempt for much of the fanbase, but separately they've manifestly got a striking vision of the game that they're sincerely trying to set down/communicate, and the vision is a compelling one. It's not actually contempt that drives me to write paragraph upon paragraph about Vampire or Mage or whatever, it's genuine love for the material and the desire for others to see what I see in it. Even if fans could categorically never become writers, it'd be a worthwhile effort to explain to people that Chejop Kejak doesn't appear to personally murder every single Solar seconds after that Solar's exaltation, even though the book makes that clear already, because some people genuinely do just misremember something or don't realize they're basing an intuition on some influence that's inapplicable.
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May 12, 2015 09:16
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Ferrinus posted:Even if fans could categorically never become writers, it'd be a worthwhile effort to explain to people that Chejop Kejak doesn't appear to personally murder every single Solar seconds after that Solar's exaltation, even though the book makes that clear already, because some people genuinely do just misremember something or don't realize they're basing an intuition on some influence that's inapplicable. Is this kinda like how with monopoly everyone plays it completely wrong even from eachother, adding or removing rules that they half remember... and that's without the layer of fluff over rules in say exalted?
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May 12, 2015 09:19
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If a group thinks that Chejop is going to personally appear and murder your character as soon as you Exalt then I'm not sure any amount of rule clarification will help them.
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May 12, 2015 09:28
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Fans posted:If a group thinks that Chejop is going to personally appear and murder your character as soon as you Exalt then I'm not sure any amount of rule clarification will help them. As far as I recall from my time on the WW forums those kind of posters didn't tend to play the game, just complain about how there's no point playing because sidereals are just going to kill them the moment play starts (or start 100 page threads about how it's totally unthinkable to go to Yu-Shan no matter what their GM says - after all any teacup could be hiding a sidereal ninja squad).
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May 12, 2015 09:33
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Fans posted:If a group thinks that Chejop is going to personally appear and murder your character as soon as you Exalt then I'm not sure any amount of rule clarification will help them. Consider that they might have heard this second or thirdhand from some moron with an axe to grind and honestly don't realize how far the (most commonly visible) fan perception of the game has drifted from the game, though.
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May 12, 2015 10:47
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Oh hey there, The Twisted Legacy of Roland Barthes. The greatest, most pernicious misunderstanding lazy English professors have ever perpetrated on their students is this idea that the 'death of the author' somehow makes every single reading of a text valid.
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May 12, 2015 11:22
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Party on, Ronwayne! Party on, Barthes!
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May 12, 2015 12:55
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"Nothing is true. Everything is permitted." - Roland Barthes, "The Death of the Author"
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May 12, 2015 12:57
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Ferrinus posted:Consider that they might have heard this second or thirdhand from some moron with an axe to grind and honestly don't realize how far the (most commonly visible) fan perception of the game has drifted from the game, though. Sidereals, even very young ones, are obviously busy people and even a few seconds of their free time is extremely valuable. The thing is, The actual text is loving terrible at conveying this. Hopefully 3E will be better at showing this with that dude who's pissed he got friendzoned and Lunars building new Looms of Fate and poo poo, but I'm skeptical. Exalted (especially 2E) has extremely bad power creep, and it's worse for Sidereals who after a certain point all become invincible murder monsters because their only worthwhile charmset is Martial Arts. There's actually fiction in the game where elder Sidereals (one of whom is, you know, Kejak) casually chat about how they go around murdering new Exalts just to assess their fighting styles. Like, that is something they paid a person to write, and artist to make art for, an editor to lay out, and a publisher to print in the book because it was content they thought conveyed the tone of the game and was important. If they really were going to have a problem with people worrying about Sidereals teleport dropping them out of nowhere and didn't want players to think that would happen, maaaaaaybe they shouldn't have written about Sidereals doing it?
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May 12, 2015 15:30
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GreenMetalSun posted:There's actually fiction in the game where elder Sidereals (one of whom is, you know, Kejak) casually chat about how they go around murdering new Exalts just to assess their fighting styles. Which book was this?
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May 12, 2015 16:06
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Crion posted:Oh hey there, The Twisted Legacy of Roland Barthes. The greatest, most pernicious misunderstanding lazy English professors have ever perpetrated on their students is this idea that the 'death of the author' somehow makes every single reading of a text valid. Doesn't all this poo poo kind of bump into the traditional and typical "It's your game, we aren't the game police; have fun with it" paragraph or sidebar in the Storytellers section?
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May 12, 2015 17:59
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