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DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:I don't believe that felons should beat the mark of Cain forever regardless of their repentance, nor do I believe that rape is a uniquely terrifying and hideous crime that twists a person's soul forever. Hunter S Thompson described "a curious rape mania that rides on the shoulder of American journalism like some jeering, masturbating raven" and it's true, it's a huge source of fixation for people. I don't think anyone who knows Jesse could seriously believe he poses a threat to anyone at an event, and I doubt very much a person with an assault or larceny conviction would be subject to the same opprobrium. I get your point but in the context of Magic theft is a terrible crime to use as a counterexample when people have 1000$+ highly fencible decks in a tournament venue
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May 12, 2015 23:06
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Zoness posted:Um Phrasing dude. I'm legitimately not sure what you mean by this, is there something I could have said in a better way?
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May 12, 2015 23:09
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Angry Grimace posted:Its a simple answer: its an enormous beater for 2CMC that gets better through the act of either side playing Magic: the Gathering. The drawback that it can come into play as a 2/3 is mostly illusory since its P/T are dynamic. If it came into play with a +1/+1 counter for each card type, it would still be OP, just vaguely less so since you're less likely to be swinging in 4 power on turn 3. Even then, if I can drop a 2CMC 5/6 on Turn whatever without actively doing anything to enable it, its pretty much broken. again, I don't think anything in the combat step can even really be broken. The things that are broken are tutoring, drawing extra cards, and cheating mana. Goyf is, at best, cheating mana, and maybe only 2 mana.
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May 12, 2015 23:10
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Zoness posted:did you post "YOUR MOVE" every time you posted your move tho Yes and I also mashed the nudge button JerryLee posted:I'm legitimately not sure what you mean by this, is there something I could have said in a better way? Are we...not...doing phrasing anymore?
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May 12, 2015 23:11
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JerryLee posted:I'm legitimately not sure what you mean by this, is there something I could have said in a better way? "To ride" is a pretty bad, if unintended, double entendre given the nature of his past That said, it's also hilarious.
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May 12, 2015 23:11
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Sigma-X posted:I don't get this at all - how is goyf not a utility card like bolt or thoughtseize? Bolt kills creatures or clocks the opponent. Goyf clocks the opponent. Your definition of a "utility card" is pretty dumb.
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May 12, 2015 23:18
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It might be that there is more than one way for a card to be really good and that straight-up comparing Tarmogoyf to Deathrite or whatever isn't going to prove much of anything. Just my opinion, mind you, and I'm pretty bad at Magic and also at posting, so take it with a grain of salt. But I think there might really be something to this idea. Niton posted:"To ride" is a pretty bad, if unintended, double entendre given the nature of his past Seriously did not intend that 
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May 12, 2015 23:20
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MisterOblivious posted:Your definition of a "utility card" is pretty dumb. it's a loving vanilla creature.
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May 12, 2015 23:21
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Sigma-X posted:it's a loving vanilla creature. That's not remotely utility. Deathrite is a utility creature. Goyf is not.
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May 12, 2015 23:22
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TheKingofSprings posted:That's not remotely utility. fair nuff. All the more reason then - it has no utility. It's a vanilla creature. It does less things than lightning bolt or thoughtseize. How is this broken?
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May 12, 2015 23:29
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I mean goyf costs a lot because that's a price people are willing to pay for goyfs. I mean I agree that the entry price is pretty high but there are ways to undermine the value of a goyf. Although admittedly Undermine isn't legal in the format. What I'm saying is wait for turbogoyf which is just goyf but twice as powerful for half the cost.
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May 12, 2015 23:30
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Utility implies it has more than one purpose/function. Goyf has exactly one purpose/function in every deck it's in; to be an extremely under-costed beater. That's it. That's all he does. Can someone make a chart or graph showing how often these threads derail into arguments about Goyf in one form or another? It feels like at least once every few weeks. 
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May 12, 2015 23:32
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Cernunnos posted:Utility implies it has more than one purpose. This threads soul is weighed down by Goyf's gravity Which admittedly is only 0.25 Gs but still
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May 12, 2015 23:33
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Sigma-X posted:fair nuff. it locks up the ground and wins the game for 2 mana. kind of busted tbqh
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May 12, 2015 23:34
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A big flaming stink posted:it locks up the ground and wins the game for 2 mana. kind of busted tbqh Are we talking about Young Pyromancer here? Because that card fits your description infinitely more than Goyf.
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May 12, 2015 23:39
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young pyro makes goyf look pretty stupid
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May 12, 2015 23:40
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Put cabal therapy in modern Free young Peezy and monastery mentos
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May 12, 2015 23:42
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A big flaming stink posted:it locks up the ground and wins the game for 2 mana. kind of busted tbqh A T2 Goyf as a 5/6 does not push the game past Turn 4 wins (and it isn't a 5/6 the first turn you're attacking), is incredibly interactable, and provides no utility (as I have been corrected). Please tell me why this is as powerful as Stoneforge Mystic, who tutors / draws a card and cheats mana while avoiding counterspells.
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May 12, 2015 23:44
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um phasing dude
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May 12, 2015 23:57
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I don't have a problem with Goyf, but I do take issue with wizards for not reprinting chain lightning.
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May 13, 2015 00:02
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I liked the part where the rape guy's civil rights were reinstated by a governor who was just sentenced to 2 years in federal prison for corruption charges lol
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May 13, 2015 00:15
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Sigma-X posted:A T2 Goyf as a 5/6 does not push the game past Turn 4 wins (and it isn't a 5/6 the first turn you're attacking), is incredibly interactable, and provides no utility (as I have been corrected). Stoneforge Mystic is banned, and among the short-list of cards you cited, Deathrite is also banned, and Metalworker and Welder would likely also be banned, assuming they were Modern Legal (which they are not), thus the only two that are legal in modern are Tarmogoyf and Dark Confidant. You have to actually construct your deck to make Dark Confidant better than some other card. In fact, if you just inserted Dark Confidant into an average deck, it's potentially is worse than having nothing. Tarmogoyf makes every deck that can reasonably run it better.
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May 13, 2015 00:36
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Angry Grimace posted:Stoneforge Mystic is banned, and among the short-list of cards you cited, Deathrite is also banned, and Metalworker and Welder would likely also be banned, assuming they were Modern Legal (which they are not), thus the only two that are legal in modern are Tarmogoyf and Dark Confidant. You have to actually construct your deck to make Dark Confidant better than some other card. In fact, if you just inserted Dark Confidant into an average deck, it's potentially is worse than having nothing. So does lightning bolt. When you say goyf should be banned you are saying it is aaa powerful as stoneforge. So please explain how a vanilla creature is that powerful.
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May 13, 2015 00:44
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Sigma-X posted:So does lightning bolt. Doesn't that pesky thing about goyf getting bigger exclude it from being vanilla though?
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May 13, 2015 00:46
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It doesn't really matter what various individuals perceive Tarmogoyf to be because the reality is a single copy costs ~$200 and that's a total joke regardless of context.
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May 13, 2015 00:53
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Banning Goyf because its expensive is extremely dumb
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May 13, 2015 00:56
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rabidsquid posted:Banning Goyf because its expensive is extremely dumb It shouldn't be the only reason, you are right.
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May 13, 2015 00:57
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Sickening posted:It shouldn't be the only reason, you are right. If it's a factor at all in your argument it invalidates the entire thing actually
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May 13, 2015 00:59
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Sickening posted:Doesn't that pesky thing about goyf getting bigger exclude it from being vanilla though? It's vanilla because it has no evasion. Goyf doesn't mean much when it can be chumped forever.
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May 13, 2015 01:08
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Sigma-X posted:So does lightning bolt. KidDynamite posted:It's vanilla because it has no evasion. Goyf doesn't mean much when it can be chumped forever. Except in an average game of Magic, you can't actually just chump things forever.
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May 13, 2015 01:09
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Sickening posted:Doesn't that pesky thing about goyf getting bigger exclude it from being vanilla though? I'm not considering it as anything less than a 4/5 for 1G. It's a 4/5 for 1G most of the time, and sometimes it's bigger, and that's pretty much always irrelevant in those games because they're long-rear end interactive games where the slight improvement is not as important as board control. Sometimes it's smaller, but I'm not making the argument that it being smaller makes it less of a threat (except in that specific instance earlier of a do-nothing game other than back to back goyfs). it's loving vanilla. It doesn't have any evasion. It doesn't do anything. It gets chumped by any useless creature, and it dies to all non-burn removal except for those rare occasions where bolt can actually kill it. Sickening posted:It shouldn't be the only reason, you are right. if your argument for a card's power has anything to do with the price you're doing it wrong. If it was a common it wouldn't be less powerful. Angry Grimace posted:Complexity isn't the issue and Stoneforge Mystic isn't the barometer by which things get banned - that's just something you're saying. Stoneforge is exactly the loving barometer by which things get banned in modern. Every creature on the ban list is much, much more powerful than goyf, and to put a creature on the banlist you have to make the argument that goyf is extremely near that power level if not above it. Every other banned card draws cards, tutors, cheats mana, and/or breaks the turn 4 kill metric (typically by cheating mana, ie Disrupting Shoal). Goyf doesn't do anything like that. Sigma-X fucked around with this message at 01:14 on May 13, 2015 |
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May 13, 2015 01:11
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What is the argument again? Whether goyf is "broken" or just "extremely good"? Who cares? Also it's obviously better than Tasigur because BG decks play goyf 1-4 before playing a single Tasigur. The fact that you can easily get multiple Tarmogoyfs into play is a huge advantage for it over Tasigur, compounded by having Delve and being Legendary. Sure Tasigur's ability is better to have in a vacuum, but overall it's just a clunkier card in a format where you can't always afford to be clunky.
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May 13, 2015 01:12
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MiddleEastBeast posted:What is the argument again? Whether goyf is "broken" or just "extremely good"? Who cares? the argument is "goyf should be banned in modern" vs "you're a loving idiot for thinking it should be banned in modern when it is nowhere near the power level of banned cards in modern"
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May 13, 2015 01:14
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Sigma-X posted:Stoneforge is exactly the loving barometer by which things get banned in modern. Every creature on the ban list is much, much more powerful than goyf, and to put a creature on the banlist you have to make the argument that goyf is extremely near that power level if not above it. No it isn't, that's just something you're making up right now, along with "a 'vanilla' creature can't be overpowered by definition!" (Tarmogoyf isn't vanilla, it gets bigger and bigger) Sigma-X posted:the argument is "goyf should be banned in modern" vs "you're a loving idiot for thinking it should be banned in modern when it is nowhere near the power level of banned cards in modern" You are getting way too angry over a debate over power levels in a children's card game. Chill out.
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May 13, 2015 01:15
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Goyf can run in most green decks but isn't great in some decks. Its format defining, but not unbeatable for majority of archetypes.
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May 13, 2015 01:17
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I am sorry to anyone who wants to play with Goyfs but doesnt want to spend the money but this thread tends towards "stuff I personally dislike for reasons not related to the health of the game" when it calls for banning stuff and never really makes compelling arguments for what exactly would be the good of banning specific stuff.
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May 13, 2015 01:17
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rabidsquid posted:I am sorry to anyone who wants to play with Goyfs but doesnt want to spend the money but this thread tends towards "stuff I personally dislike for reasons not related to the health of the game" when it calls for banning stuff and never really makes compelling arguments for what exactly would be the good of banning specific stuff. let's ban twin cuz I don't like having to play discard, counterspells, or creature removal in my deck to interact with it. anyhow I'm peacing out on goyf because I don't think anyone is going to change my mind about how broken a creature with no abilities can be.
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May 13, 2015 01:22
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rabidsquid posted:I am sorry to anyone who wants to play with Goyfs but doesnt want to spend the money but this thread tends towards "stuff I personally dislike for reasons not related to the health of the game" when it calls for banning stuff and never really makes compelling arguments for what exactly would be the good of banning specific stuff. Okay, lets talk about how a card being 200 bucks could possibly be a negative to the health of the game.
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May 13, 2015 01:23
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Sickening posted:Okay, lets talk about how a card being 200 bucks could possibly be a negative to the health of the game. If you start making format bans based on external from gameplay issues you're no longer cultivating a healthy competitive scene which is way worse than people not wanting to pay a lot of money for a card.
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May 13, 2015 01:24
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rabidsquid posted:I am sorry to anyone who wants to play with Goyfs but doesnt want to spend the money but this thread tends towards "stuff I personally dislike for reasons not related to the health of the game" when it calls for banning stuff and never really makes compelling arguments for what exactly would be the good of banning specific stuff. I would tend to agree that card price isn't really a reason for banning something (although $200 4-ofs might not be terribly healthy for the game). It is, however, a reason to reprint that card until its not $200, meaning not as a mythic in a super limited set. WOTC claims to not pay attention to the secondary market, but they probably should not let individual cards exceed $75. That's probably a breaking point for people who want to play the game.
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May 13, 2015 01:25
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