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Yeah, if you're in the mood for political space opera you should really give LoGH a go.
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May 14, 2015 11:35
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And Imma second that Vorkosigan rec. That series is one of the go-tos for light, fun political space-opera.
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May 14, 2015 14:06
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Darkrenown posted:I think you're thinking of Watch on the Rhine? quote:I don't recall any Hitler praising, although of course bringing back the SS is...iffy. quote:For those that haven't read it, aliens are invading and Earth is about to be hosed, but "nice" aliens give us technology to rejuvenate people so everyone rejuvs their veterans, which includes former SS in Germany's case. quote:I like Ringo for the most part, again for his combat. The rape stuff in Ghost is pretty terrible, but there's nothing objectionable in, say, the Prince Rodger series. And the Posleen (unless you count the semi spin off Watch on the Rhine) or Portals books have nothing worse than cheesy/weird/awesome sections like the powermetal battles or anime zone section. You can do "ravening alien horde" with them being intelligent, with there being tension, with there being consequences Aaron Dembski Bowden does it very well in Helsreach. And while not breaking every 30 pages for an extended period of "let me tell you about my tacticool realism in pornographic detail" helps, it's those elements that make passages about combat exciting or not.
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May 14, 2015 15:15
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Well I'd say praising the [Waffen] SS and praising Hitler are a bit different, but I don't event remember much praising of the SS beyond "they were fanatical fighters" and "they had good morale/espirit de corps". Pretty much all the SS guys die, the one particularity anti-Semitic guy gets ganked by a recruit who is disgusted by him, and the one survivor dude spends the rest of his life helping rebuild Israel due to his guilt. It's been a while though.
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May 14, 2015 16:23
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Fried Chicken posted:That style is further compounded by having the antagonists be a mindless horde so you don't have the ratcheting tension of move and counter move. I haven't read the Posleen/Aldenata stuff in forever, so I'm not sure if it was that bad in the first few books, but you do eventually get more characterization of the 'mindless horde', a few leader-types start to recur (although the grunts are always just canon fodder).
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May 14, 2015 16:24
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That was one thing i liked about the original Posleen books (Couldn't bring myself to read Watch on the Rhine). There is strong selection pressure on the Posleen leadership caste. The 'Charge the enemy in one massive frontal attack' Posleen leaders rapidly get weeded out and the remainder get a lot more dangerous.
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May 14, 2015 17:01
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You can find the entire LOGH series on YouTube. I watched the first episode years ago, thought the animation was dated and didn't continue. Then I tried again last year and ended up marathoning 10 years in one weekend.
gohmak fucked around with this message at 17:07 on May 14, 2015 |
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May 14, 2015 17:05
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Darkrenown posted:Well I'd say praising the [Waffen] SS and praising Hitler are a bit different, but I don't event remember much praising of the SS beyond "they were fanatical fighters" and "they had good morale/espirit de corps". Pretty much all the SS guys die, the one particularity anti-Semitic guy gets ganked by a recruit who is disgusted by him, and the one survivor dude spends the rest of his life helping rebuild Israel due to his guilt. It's been a while though. Isn't it a little more gross that he's white washing what the SS did, trying to portray them as generally a great, hard fighting organization, with just a few rotten apples? That's retarded and I can't believe you're unironically posting "well, he loves the SS, holds them up as the ideal human warriors of all time, sometimes there's rape but let's ignore it, but his combat writing with literal (?) 'anime zones' and powermetal while riding into combat totally makes up for it, as does the human female ship with boob lasers and vagina docking bay." Jesus christ, I thought I read awful scifi/fantasy as a kid with Battletech and Dragonlance and Shadowrun.
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May 14, 2015 17:15
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That's not what I said at all though? It's cool if you don't like Ringo, you don't need to make weird poo poo up to justify it.
Darkrenown fucked around with this message at 17:48 on May 14, 2015 |
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May 14, 2015 17:42
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Kesper North posted:He writes like a sex-crazed ten year old with a rape fetish. Actually, looking at his bibliography, it turns out that I haven't. I was mixing him up with Eric Flint .  e X posted:I started watching Babylon 5 again and that put me in the mood for some Space Opera, preferably focused on politics. I know that is not exactly the most popular subject, so it doesn't have to be just that, but I am generally not really all that into military fan wank. I once tried to read Honor Harrington and was pretty bored about half way through. So, is there any series that focuses more on interstellar politics than warfare? Speaking of whom, I rather enjoyed the Flint/Drake Belisarius novels. It's not space, but there's some decent politics involved, and a weird mash-up of Byzantine and early gunpowder warfare. They're worth a read.
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May 14, 2015 18:02
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They are indeed a fun read. Even if some of the characters would make even Honor Harrington say "Ok, now this person seems a little Mary Sue".
Deptfordx fucked around with this message at 19:30 on May 14, 2015 |
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May 14, 2015 19:08
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e X posted:I started watching Babylon 5 again and that put me in the mood for some Space Opera, preferably focused on politics. I know that is not exactly the most popular subject, so it doesn't have to be just that, but I am generally not really all that into military fan wank. I once tried to read Honor Harrington and was pretty bored about half way through. So, is there any series that focuses more on interstellar politics than warfare? I've just been going back through C.J. Cherryh's Foreigner saga and it's pretty much all about high-level diplomacy between some human settlers and an alien race on their home planet through the POV of an interpreter/ambassador. It's pretty much the adventures of a beta male with a poli-sci/linguistics double degree in space-elf town, but there are lots of fun little assassination attempts and political crises while our hero has various levels of emotional trauma. So it's more a political thriller than this thread's focused Space Opera, but it probably counts.
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May 14, 2015 19:27
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Darkrenown posted:Well I'd say praising the [Waffen] SS and praising Hitler are a bit different, but I don't event remember much praising of the SS beyond "they were fanatical fighters" and "they had good morale/espirit de corps". Pretty much all the SS guys die, the one particularity anti-Semitic guy gets ganked by a recruit who is disgusted by him, and the one survivor dude spends the rest of his life helping rebuild Israel due to his guilt. It's been a while though. The book literally ends with the protagonist commiting genocide on aliens and practically everything about German politics in that book is wrong up to the point where 2 minutes on Google could have told Kratmann the truth. The whitewashing of the SS, one of the most vile organizations that has ever existed, is just the cherry on top of the shitpile that is Watch on the Rhine. The book was so bad I threw it away and I felt good about destroying a book. Let that sink in.
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May 14, 2015 19:41
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Darth Walrus posted:And Imma second that Vorkosigan rec. That series is one of the go-tos for light, fun political space-opera. That's true, but be wary that the level of light and fun can vary quite a bit. It can go from "Miles and Ivan have fun on vacation" (Cetaganda) to some fairly grim stuff (e.g. Mirror Dance) without much notice.
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May 14, 2015 21:46
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Libluini posted:The book literally ends with the protagonist commiting genocide on aliens and practically everything about German politics in that book is wrong up to the point where 2 minutes on Google could have told Kratmann the truth. Yeah, I like to think if the choice was literally between Germany being completely wiped out as an entity, population included, and reinstating the SS as a force in Germany, the German parliament would still very seriously consider the first option. And even if you grant him that the circumstances require an elite unit for morale purposes, it would be a million times more likely that the Bundeswehr would form something like a Republican Guard Division that traces its roots back to the Guard Divisions of the old German Empire, because that would be less politically insane.
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May 14, 2015 22:41
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Watch on the Rhine is reprehensible to anyone with any understanding of history, or anyone from Europe who isn't some kind of closeted fascist. Its only target audience are conservative Americans too uneducated to notice that the authors get everything wrong that a cursory glance at a wikipedia article could have told them. They get to wink and nudge one another as every non-Germanic nation is a complete failure, then nod sagely as Kratman describes the SS as full of patriots only wishing to do what's best for the fatherland while being quietly appalled by the Holocaust etc. Get hosed. It's a pretty common comforting myth that the Waffen-SS did all the atrocities and the regular army was just doing their duty and not involved in any war crimes. No one wants to wonder if grandpa dug some shallow graves for Eastern Europeans. That's not true either, but to extend the whole "Well someone else did all the bad stuff, we totally didn't" defense to the loving Waffen-SS is just insane. In terms of jingoistic right-wing power fantasies, this is probably the worst just for the sheer ignorance in utilizing THE loving WAFFEN-SS to make their lovely "lol the west is decaying from the inside because political correctness and liberal pussies" point. God drat. Psykmoe fucked around with this message at 23:07 on May 14, 2015 |
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May 14, 2015 23:04
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Darkrenown posted:That's not what I said at all though? It's cool if you don't like Ringo, you don't need to make weird poo poo up to justify it. Sorry, I legitimately didn't mean to put all that on you or imply you endorsed all his poo poo or anything. I just have never read a John Ringo book, but have read tons of stuff I thought was really poor writing, and I need to recalibrate my internal scale  What's that series of sci/fantasy books that espouses the proper role of women as slaves to men? Gord, Zor? I don't know, can't find it with a quick search, and I never read any and don't remember anything more about it. Last time it was brought up here or in the other scifi/fantasy thread, I really vaguely remembered the cover of one that someone posted (stereotypical buff space/fantasy shirtless dude?), I think, and that as a 12 or 13 year old I had bought it at a used book store but never read it. Makes me appreciate somehow unintentionally navigating through this poo poo genre and avoiding reading the worst stuff when I was young and impressionable, haha.
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May 14, 2015 23:28
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RVProfootballer posted:Sorry, I legitimately didn't mean to put all that on you or imply you endorsed all his poo poo or anything. I just have never read a John Ringo book, but have read tons of stuff I thought was really poor writing, and I need to recalibrate my internal scale It's a world called...
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May 14, 2015 23:32
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RVProfootballer posted:Sorry, I legitimately didn't mean to put all that on you or imply you endorsed all his poo poo or anything. No problem. ArchangeI posted:Yeah, I like to think if the choice was literally between Germany being completely wiped out as an entity, population included, and reinstating the SS as a force in Germany, the German parliament would still very seriously consider the first option. That was the choice in the book, except it was the world and not just Germany, and they do very seriously consider not bringing them back. The decision to bring them back also comes hand in hand with the decision to use them up in the heaviest fighting. Libluini posted:The book literally ends with the protagonist commiting genocide on aliens and practically everything about German politics in that book is wrong up to the point where 2 minutes on Google could have told Kratmann the truth. Look, I didn't say WotR was a good book, I just disagreed with the guy saying it praised Hitler. But to address your points: 1) What's the problem with genociding the aliens? It's a common enough thing in space opera/sci-fi and it's part of the Posleen books story not WotR specifically - the aliens here are literally a mostly non-sentient scourge on the galaxy that genocide and eat all the other intelligent races they meet. Or if you meant the Darhel, they directly cause the death of 90% of humanity while attempting to kill 99.x%. Personally, I am fine with some fictional xenocide against aliens who are trying to wipe out humans, but that's a larger topic which is not unique to this book. 2) I don't know anything much about German politics myself, but I could accept the book isn't well researched. It's also possible it's wrong on purpose, both the writers like to have terribly incompetent/corrupt left-wingers in their stories. 3) I don't recall the SS being whitewashed, as I remember it the theme of the book was basically "They are evil shits and we hate them, but it's looking likely we're all going to die and they are willing to fight so we will use them up to try to protect humanity".
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May 15, 2015 00:15
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Darkrenown posted:
1.) I now shall switch this around so you finally can see the problem: What's the problem with genociding the humans? It's kind of obvious from this book we found they're pretty cool in wiping out other sentient species. Let's just send our battlefleet in and bomb them. Also let's record how they beg for mercy, then we can laugh at them while shooting at their civilian ships. Really, the ending to WotR was so ironic a better author would have planned it this way, but here we're supposed to sympathize with the crazy Nazis. Your reaction reminds me of how Dan Carlin in one of his history podcasts talks about how we are astonishingly apt to just commit murder by category. All Armenians, All Jews, all Darhel. There's always something going "gently caress it, let's kill them all." If you're wondering why I answer this question so elaborately, it's because I'm a cynic and already foresaw your reaction as soon as I mentioned the genocide. So I had some time to think about what I would say then to answer it. Oh loving god, that's even more depressing. I foresaw you reacting like a Nazi and was right. Ugh.  2.) Believe me, if they were wrong on purpose the book would be ten times better. 3.) Maybe you don't recall it because you don't know enough about the SS, so the whitewashing went over your head? By the way, all the SS and Wehrmacht-people not completely contemptible already joined the Bundeswehr back when it was founded. Minus them and minus the ones dead because they were loving fanatics there probably is only a small handful of them left in the time the book deals with. Also minus the ones fleeing to Argentina, of course. Trying to make an army out of the few left is just dumb. You pretty much notice immediately the author just thought about all the veterans still alive in the US and extrapolated to Germany without really thinking the implications through. Overall, WotR's problem isn't being a bad book, it's a poisonous book which secretly makes you think genocide is OK as long as some of the victims did something bad first. Like Jews controlling the world with their evil banks, that means we can kill them all now!
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May 15, 2015 00:46
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Thanks everybody who chimed in with book ideas for me, especially Fried Chicken. I have seen Legend of the Galactic Heroes and am a fan. Plus, I am looking for books specifically. Also, when I said of military stuff, I didn't mean I don' want any battles at all, it is more along the lines that when I tried to read HH, it focused way to much on the military daily routine. I mean, it tried really hard to made them constructing signal buoys into some kind of exciting adventure and that just fell completely flat for me. I think I am going to start with the Vorkosigan Saga. I tried to read it once before, in chronological order, but Free Fall didn't really impress me all that much. This time, I will start with Shards of Honor and take it from there. e X fucked around with this message at 05:51 on May 15, 2015 |
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May 15, 2015 02:07
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Libluini posted:1.) I now shall switch this around so you finally can see the problem: You have a pretty broad definition of being a Nazi if being ok with the fictional genocide of genocidal aliens is enough to qualify as one. Someone else was recommending In Death Ground/The Shiva Option a page or two back, books focused on the Human-bugs genocidal war, don't forget to call him Hitler! Get into the Tolkien thread and condemn those anti-orc racists too. Maybe head over to Games and make sure all the 4x players know they're all basically members of the SS while you're at it. Wiping out the baddies is incredibly common in sci-fi and fantasy, in books, movies, games, you name it - that doesn't mean fans of the genre support the Holocaust. gently caress, even in the thread recommended The dragon never sleeps I think the Guardships were genociding the Outsiders. It's perfectly fine if you're against even fictional genocide, but it's weird to act like it's uncommon or that being ok with it in fiction means you support it in reality. quote:3.) Maybe you don't recall it because you don't know enough about the SS, so the whitewashing went over your head? By the way, all the SS and Wehrmacht-people not completely contemptible already joined the Bundeswehr back when it was founded. Minus them and minus the ones dead because they were loving fanatics there probably is only a small handful of them left in the time the book deals with. Also minus the ones fleeing to Argentina, of course. Trying to make an army out of the few left is just dumb. I know a fair bit about the SS and WWII in general, so please give specific examples of the book whitewashing the SS if you really want to argue about it. There's certainly attempts from some of the SS characters at equivalence/justification, but that just seemed realistic - few people will just say "Yup, I'm just an evil monster!", but characters telling self-serving lies doesn't equate to the book whitewashing the SS. Some also bring up the point of joining the W-SS out of patriotism or a desire to be in a perceived elite unit rather than political convictions, which is again a real thing - you can still be a member of an evil, criminal organisation and complicit in its crimes without being personally driven by love for nazism/hate of jews+slavs. If you just take this as the author saying the SS did nothing wrong I think you're badly misreading the book, there's plenty of other characters who talk about how awful the SS as Nazism were, the reader's own knowledge of history should show that the SS men don't have the most objective view on their actions, and there's even an SS character who basically exists to say "HEY GUYS I SURE DID LOVE KILLING PEOPLE IN CAMPS!" all the time just in case any readers lose track of the fact the SS were evil bastards. Of course, on top of this you have the common Ringo/Kratman theme that the left are all retarded and sometimes you just gotta shoot people that need shooting which both looks worse with the SS characters and makes the SS characters look more justified, but they literally do this in every book. I'm not sure what you're point about people joining the Bundeswehr is about though - I don't think the book goes into specifics, but perhaps they were holding off rejuving anyone who had ever been in the SS? They get ~25,000 dudes from Germany anyway. Darkrenown fucked around with this message at 02:31 on May 15, 2015 |
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May 15, 2015 02:28
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i got an idea guys lets not have a big flamewar about whether we agree strongly enough that the Waffen-SS were bad people ********** Drake's "Leary" series has some politics, but it's more along the lines of the super-cynical "Leary is great, everyone else is either a dangerous idiot or a violent child, PS politicians are evil no matter whose side they say they're on".
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May 15, 2015 05:22
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All you guys wanting interplanetary politics are really missing out if you haven't read Anne McCaffrey's Decision on Doona series.
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May 15, 2015 05:30
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Darkrenown posted:You have a pretty broad definition of being a Nazi if being ok with the fictional genocide of genocidal aliens is enough to qualify as one. Someone else was recommending In Death Ground/The Shiva Option a page or two back, books focused on the Human-bugs genocidal war, don't forget to call him Hitler! Get into the Tolkien thread and condemn those anti-orc racists too. Maybe head over to Games and make sure all the 4x players know they're all basically members of the SS while you're at it. Wiping out the baddies is incredibly common in sci-fi and fantasy, in books, movies, games, you name it - that doesn't mean fans of the genre support the Holocaust. gently caress, even in the thread recommended The dragon never sleeps I think the Guardships were genociding the Outsiders. It's perfectly fine if you're against even fictional genocide, but it's weird to act like it's uncommon or that being ok with it in fiction means you support it in reality. There's a gigantic difference between a hive mind which we can't even communicate with and which sees all aliens as food and some weird alien vegetarians with delusions of grandeur. Also maybe you should stop dragging up every case of killing in media in defence of a book which had literally swastikas on the cover when it arrived on my doorstep. (This was quite the surprise, since I imported the book. Considering how our law frowns on everything with a swastika on it, it would have been hilarious if customs had opened that package. On newer pictures it's quite of hard to make them out anymore, at least on the few bad pictures I found googling this. So maybe newer editions of the book cut back on that?) Now step down from that hill, it's not really worth dying for it. quote:I know a fair bit about the SS and WWII in general, so please give specific examples of the book whitewashing the SS if you really want to argue about it. No I don't want to argue about it, I stated my opinion, that's it. Also I threw the book away as I'm not in the habit of analyzing books I find reprehensible, so giving specific examples now is kind of a moot point.
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May 15, 2015 11:43
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I already told you, the genocide ending isn't even a part of the WotR story - it's part of the Posleen series and the genocide of the Darhel was cannon before WotR - it's just slotting one of the characters into events that had already happened in the epilogue to provide some continuity. I'm not even what you're arguing at this point. Fictional genocide is ok unless the aliens are vegetarian? Fictional genocide is ok unless it's mentioned in a book that also mentions nazis because that reminds you real genocide happened and is bad? Your previous posts just seemed like you are against any/all fictional genocide of aliens to the point of saying I was like a nazi for being ok with fictionally genociding genocidal aliens 
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May 15, 2015 13:08
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Why are you keep going with this? Are you somehow under the delusion SA is full of defenders of genocide who will spring to your defense? Also you keep agressively misinterpreting what I'm saying, please stop doing that. It's kind of hard to answer some of your questions since they reference things I never wrote. Like if you can't even understand that there's a difference between fictional genocide as a sad and bad thing and fictional genocide as something the protagonist actively roots for, there's no point in arguing. In case you missed it: quote:Now step down from that hill, it's not really worth dying for it.
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May 15, 2015 13:40
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I don't want to concede your point just because you can't defend it, sorry. I don't believe fictional genocide of genocidal aliens is a sad or bad thing. I believe people can separate fiction from reality and be ok with fictional alien genocide without supporting real genocide against humans. I believe it's pretty standard stuff for the evil aliens/orcs/whathaveyou being wiped out to be seen in a positive light in sci-fi and fantasy, and that " won't someone think of the children of the evil genocidal aliens! " is a strange position to take. I'm glad the Darhel die in the Posleen books, I don't care about the number of orcs killed in Lord of the Rings, and I'll happily build a battlefleet armed with deadly biological weapons to bombard the homeworld of the cat-people in Master of Orion- none of this means I support real genocide.
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May 15, 2015 14:51
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If nothing else I think most people would agree that the Neo-SS having a Jewish Brigade (and some parts of the book implying that something similar was planned during WWII) was amazingly tone-deaf at minimum, if not outright insulting.
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May 15, 2015 15:18
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Darkrenown posted:I don't want to concede your point just because you can't defend it, sorry. I don't believe fictional genocide of genocidal aliens is a sad or bad thing. I believe people can separate fiction from reality and be ok with fictional alien genocide without supporting real genocide against humans. I believe it's pretty standard stuff for the evil aliens/orcs/whathaveyou being wiped out to be seen in a positive light in sci-fi and fantasy, and that " I never claimed you support real genocide, you massive dolt.
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May 15, 2015 15:37
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Libluini posted:I never claimed you support real genocide, you massive dolt. You called him a Nazi
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May 15, 2015 15:49
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Libluini posted:I never claimed you support real genocide, you massive dolt. ? Libluini posted:What's the problem with genociding the humans? It's kind of obvious from this book we found they're pretty cool in wiping out other sentient species. Let's just send our battlefleet in and bomb them. quote:Your reaction reminds me of how Dan Carlin in one of his history podcasts talks about how we are astonishingly apt to just commit murder by category. All Armenians, All Jews, all Darhel. There's always something going "gently caress it, let's kill them all." quote:I foresaw you reacting like a Nazi and was right. quote:Overall, WotR's problem isn't being a bad book, it's a poisonous book which secretly makes you think genocide is OK as long as some of the victims did something bad first. Like Jews controlling the world with their evil banks, that means we can kill them all now! What the hell is all that about then? Why are you, after I mention not having a problem with the fictional genocide of aliens, drawing parallels between fictional genocide and real genocide and accusing me of reacting like a nazi? Darkrenown fucked around with this message at 16:02 on May 15, 2015 |
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May 15, 2015 15:54
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savinhill posted:You called him a Nazi I said he reacted like one, not that he is one. There's a difference. He also doesn't seem to get how WotR is just an extremely nasty book, he seems to think I'm writing all of this as a personal attack on him. Edit: Just see how it has twisted his way of thinking.
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May 15, 2015 16:05
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E: I'm just gonna stop.
Darkrenown fucked around with this message at 16:55 on May 15, 2015 |
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May 15, 2015 16:39
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Libluini posted:I said he reacted like one, not that he is one. There's a difference. He also doesn't seem to get how WotR is just an extremely nasty book, he seems to think I'm writing all of this as a personal attack on him. Darkrenown, please stop responding to him. You don't need the last word in this argument. It's not worth it. It may be tough, but let it go. You don't need to defend yourself, not against this silly poo poo. It's a dumb book, guys, we get it. Drifter fucked around with this message at 16:55 on May 15, 2015 |
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May 15, 2015 16:51
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Haha, yes! I was so close, I looked up Gord and got some medical condition, and Zor didn't find anything. Man, these are awful, even without any resurrected Nazis.
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May 15, 2015 19:31
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e X posted:I started watching Babylon 5 again and that put me in the mood for some Space Opera, preferably focused on politics. I know that is not exactly the most popular subject, so it doesn't have to be just that, but I am generally not really all that into military fan wank. It's not quite political but you might like Alistair Reynolds' Revelation Space series.
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May 15, 2015 21:48
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Okay, I started Shard of Honor and can somebody please explain to me how to book goes from a cool trip across an alien landscape, a couter-counter mutiny and an adorably goony Commander who thinks that a 6 days survival trip is totally enough grounds for marriage to a serial rapist who threatens his prisoners with his servants giant dick? The gently caress? Why does genre fiction always has to have that moment? I was really enjoying the book, Cordelia is a cool character and that she actually fled the ship instead of going with Vorkosigan was a pretty cool moment. Then I get to the next chapter, the invasion has begun, the Betas use their new tech and then bam!; rape dungeon. Is this going to become a thing? Every time the Barrayan military comes up it's going to be about how much they love to rape? I really liked the book up to this point, it's exactly what I was looking for, space adventures without an overemphasis on the military. I quite like Bujold writing style and I like the two main characters, but if this comes up regularly, I rather spent my time getting into something else. e X fucked around with this message at 07:48 on May 23, 2015 |
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May 23, 2015 07:43
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Shards of Honor is Bujold's first novel and it shows. I'm assuming you have the omnibus Cordelia's Honor. If so, give it to the end of Barrayar before deciding to stop. If not get that (or Barrayar on its own I guess) or The Warrior's Apprentice. That said, it'll stop being a problem real fast, so don't worry.
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May 23, 2015 07:55
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You have no idea how relieved I am to hear that. Like I said, I really enjoyed the book up to that point and that hit me completely out of the left field.
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May 23, 2015 08:00
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