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Pinstripe Hourglass posted:I don't get how a character displaying traits associated with A means they have to really be B for it to be good writing. That's actually bad writing IMO, forgoing consistency in favor of a dramatic swerve I'll wager he thinks he's being tragically noble. But only from his own very warped point of view that's incapable of processing how abhorrent he's actually being. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 16:59 on May 14, 2015 |
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May 14, 2015 16:56
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Acne Rain posted:I think this is what's really being argued about. People don't want to justify tony they just want to know what the hell he's thinking.
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May 14, 2015 17:00
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Acne Rain posted:
I did briefly consider this could be the case, but after the Seed Bismuth bait and switch it would feel cheap to be all "haha nope!" again.
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May 14, 2015 17:00
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Get your argument straight Fister Roboto. Is your argument that people who defend Anthony Carver's actions are simply emotionally uninvested in the comic because it's fiction? Because that's implausible, given the increasingly desperate posting in the thread. Is your argument that applying real life values to understand Anthony Carver's actions is wrong because it's fiction and there's fairies and stuff? Because that's dumb, one of the ways fiction is consumed is to create hypothetical situations that test our moral judgement. The point of 12 Angry Men for example is that it's making a moral case for how juries should act. If you are watching as 'oh this is interesting I wonder if this execution is going to happen' then that's quite odd. If you are watching, raging at how this goddamn killer is getting set free then either you or the director has failed. It's furthermore inconsistent: you can look at the posts of people like YF-23 to see that pro-Anthony posters are *exactly* using people's reactions to the comic to make ill-judged inferences about everyone in the thread. Is your argument that the thread is not applying Henry Fonda type ethics and that people who defend Anthony are? Because that's ridiculous, we are not in a court situation. Fonda in 12 Angry Men was establishing reasonable doubt. He was not claiming that it was not more likely for the suspect to be guilty than innocent. He was not denouncing the victim and saying that they deserved it. He was not saying slavery for Reynardine is okay. These are value judgements and the fact that this is in a fictional context does not make it illegitimate to disagree the hell with them. Pro-Anthony defenders are not saying that Anthony's actions are interesting and important to the plot. I would agree with that argument. They are saying they aren't abuse. Which is wrong. Fangz fucked around with this message at 17:03 on May 14, 2015 |
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May 14, 2015 17:00
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Pinstripe Hourglass posted:If the message of this arc ends up being "Love makes you Remember that "love makes you act in strange ways" is something Annie said to the robots. The moral of that story wasn't that Diego loved Jeanne so his actions were justified. It was that people can love someone, but then due to other feelings and personal feelings, they can be truly monstrous. I would be shocked if this arc doesn't end up being "love makes you act in strange ways." Anthony loves Annie. He also furiously hates her for killing Surma and is unbelievably bad at dealing with emotions. Above all, he is abusing her. Whatever his internal conflict or ultimate aims, his actions are deplorable. Call a spade a spade.
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May 14, 2015 17:01
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My argument is that calling people abuse apologists over this is really stupid.
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May 14, 2015 17:02
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Desperate Posting
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May 14, 2015 17:03
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If you push me any further, I may have to unleash a posting desperation attack!!!
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May 14, 2015 17:05
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Fister Roboto posted:My argument is that calling people abuse apologists over this is really stupid. Well yeah the correct term for what they are doing is Abuse Denial
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May 14, 2015 17:06
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Anyone confused about Anthony Carver's actions this chapter should read this post.idonotlikepeas posted:Maybe it's time for... Anthony Carver, a life in review! Pinstripe Hourglass posted:If the message of this arc ends up being "Love makes you
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May 14, 2015 17:07
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Anthony is a robot, robots don't need motivations! He's just doing what he's programmed to do! ... But who programmed him?  vvvvv Are you a robot!? fffff fucked around with this message at 17:12 on May 14, 2015 |
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May 14, 2015 17:09
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Blackheart posted:Desperate Posting The level of betrayal I felt when Tom portrayed Anthony as a bad parent tore something from me that I'll never be able to recover. It tore away my ability to respect anything, and it tore away my ability to feel human.
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May 14, 2015 17:10
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JT Jag posted:The things Tony has done in the last two chapters are completely in-character for him. Blackheart posted:I did briefly consider this could be the case, but after the Seed Bismuth bait and switch it would feel cheap to be all "haha nope!" again. No that would actually become foreshadowing (man, I completely forgot that part)
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May 14, 2015 17:17
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Pinstripe Hourglass posted:If the message of this arc ends up being "Love makes you Other characters who have done or considered doing strange and evil things out of love: Diego, Reynardine, Zimmy (her line about destroying the world, recall), Robot, Jack, Ysengrin, arguably others. As Anthony is the most significant antagonist by far, it's to be expected that he would have the most poignant expression of that theme. Why is he ruining his daughter's life? Lot of people in this thread just seem to want him the answer to be something you can fit in a single sentence, as though a psychologically complex character couldn't also be morally simple. Bongo Bill fucked around with this message at 17:45 on May 14, 2015 |
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May 14, 2015 17:43
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Fister Roboto posted:I just watched the first half of Twelve Angry Men and I am simply disgusted at Henry Fonda's portrayal of a murder apologist. Aaaaand, that's the second bad poster in this thread ignored.
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May 14, 2015 17:44
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Blackheart posted:Fister Roboto, you are arguing with people who cry playing videogames and watching children's cartoons. Worst post in this argument so far, on either side, and that's saying a lot. Actual content: I got my vol. 1 paperback the other day, and it's great! Very glossy and high-quality. Gonna sit down with it pretty soon and relive Football Head Year. If anyone's on the fence about buying it, go buy it, it's great.
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May 14, 2015 17:53
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Aumanor posted:Aaaaand, that's the second bad poster in this thread ignored. Desperate posting
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May 14, 2015 17:56
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fffff posted:Anthony is a robot, robots don't need motivations! He's just doing what he's programmed to do! Blackheart and YF-23 have been trolling the thread ever since the Saga of Anthony started. They're yanking chains like cow udders. Pretty sure Fister Roboto's just a dummy though.
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May 14, 2015 18:06
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Fangz posted:Pro-Anthony defenders are not saying that Anthony's actions are interesting and important to the plot. I would agree with that argument. They are saying they aren't abuse. Which is wrong. Who is? All I've seen is people saying Anthony isn't trying to abuse. He's a poo poo dad and a poo poo person. He didn't tell his wife's best friend that she died. There are, as far as we know, literally two people in the world that actually like the guy, if you can call Annie's opinion of him "like". But that doesn't mean his motivation is purely to watch his daughter suffer in sadistic glee. It's a dangerous viewpoint, to think someone needs to be an inherently evil person to be abusive.
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May 14, 2015 18:24
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Tenebrais posted:But that doesn't mean his motivation is purely to watch his daughter suffer in sadistic glee. It's a dangerous viewpoint, to think someone needs to be an inherently evil person to be abusive. No one has said this
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May 14, 2015 18:27
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Tenebrais posted:Who is? YF-23 posted:e; And regarding the word itself, I find it kind of difficult to characterise behaviour as abusive without reading some kind of ill or sadistic intent behind it, so consider me in disagreement with it unless Anthony is depicted as taking in satisfaction with mistreating Antimony.
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May 14, 2015 18:30
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So you people seriously read every fairy story with nasty parents in it through the lens of modern abuse psychology? I'm not saying Tony is a good or bad or whatever person, I'm asking why the hell do you start vomiting behavioural theories when there's a bad parent antagonist at the magic school. And is it just a child abuse thing, or do you boil every nonfriendly relationship in fiction down to abuser kicking the abused. Oh, this is where the hero is isolated, oh and look, the dark lord is wringing him through the cycle again and withholding affection!
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May 14, 2015 18:31
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Tenebrais posted:But that doesn't mean his motivation is purely to watch his daughter suffer in sadistic glee. It's a dangerous viewpoint, to think someone needs to be an inherently evil person to be abusive. Abuse is what you do, not what you are. I don't at all think that Anthony is acting out of pure sadism. It's the people defending Anthony who are using the insane logic of 'Anthony can't be evil, therefore it can't be abuse'. Strategic Tea posted:So you people seriously read every fairy story with nasty parents in it through the lens of modern abuse psychology? Fangz fucked around with this message at 18:38 on May 14, 2015 |
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May 14, 2015 18:35
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I would just like to point out that I have not once denied that Anthony's actions are abusive. Abuse is a delicate subject, and one that I'm not qualified to speak on, either professionally or experientially. I defer to the plethora of expertise within this thread. I think that calling someone an abuse apologist for speculating about a fictional character's actions is wrong. If this was a real life situation, with real people in harm's way, you would be correct! But it's not. As I've already said, it's OK and good to get invested in fiction. But I think that when you start calling people abuse apologists, you've become too invested and need to take a step back.
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May 14, 2015 18:49
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YF-23 posted:The level of betrayal I felt when Tom portrayed Anthony as a bad parent tore something from me that I'll never be able to recover. It tore away my ability to respect anything, and it tore away my ability to feel human. I'm going paraphrase what people said to me when I did the reverse of this Quote memes only work when the people you are quoting at get the context.
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May 14, 2015 18:51
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stop quoting him
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May 14, 2015 18:54
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Fister Roboto posted:I would just like to point out that I have not once denied that Anthony's actions are abusive. Abuse is a delicate subject, and one that I'm not qualified to speak on, either professionally or experientially. I defer to the plethora of expertise within this thread. ...acting like a well adjusted grown up person? Now I know you're loving with us.
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May 14, 2015 18:55
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Rumda posted:I'm going paraphrase what people said to me when I did the reverse of this same to you
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May 14, 2015 18:55
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Rumda posted:I'm going paraphrase what people said to me when I did the reverse of this Even if you don't get the reference the post in context with the discussion at the time is obviously sarcastic though. I mean, I trust the people here at least to have an actual grasp of the tone of the conversation anyway. Well, if they haven't done a silly thing like put posters on ignore over their opinion about webcomic character Anthony Carver.
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May 14, 2015 19:01
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How much passive-aggressive shitposting are we going to endure before someone collapses into a Chibisoma meltdown?
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May 14, 2015 19:05
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Good to see this thread continues to give.Bell_ posted:How much passive-aggressive shitposting are we going to endure before someone collapses into a Chibisoma meltdown? Chibisoma is a treasure and cannot be duplicated, much to the displeasure of all.
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May 14, 2015 19:07
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I like this webcomic and I'm excited to see where the story is going!
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May 14, 2015 19:59
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Bell_ posted:How much passive-aggressive shitposting are we going to endure before someone collapses into a Chibisoma meltdown? Well it won't work now that you've mentioned it like this. I think it's important to remember what perspective we're reading the comic from, Anthony knows poo poo we don't and we know poo poo he doesn't, but seriously some people were over reacting to some things and getting mad at others for being all "let's see where this goes". This comic is often unpredictable, so "seeing where it goes" is very loving valid, doesn't seem like Anthony will redeem himself, but gently caress it, he could do so on Friday for all we know. As for what he did the last few chapters the only really abusive thing is moving Annie into an empty dorm or dorm-like place (whatever this is). Seriously, think about it. How many kids are told to wear no/less make-up? How many kids are told to get a drat haircut? It's not like Annie is an independent woman and this is her boyfriend forcing her to do these things. Giving over Renard? Well Anthony hasn't even talked to Kat's parents, so what would he know about Renard's current activities? He knows him as Reynardine, the body thieving, murder. Even if he has reformed Anthony has no way of knowing he's trustworthy and not just playing his daughter for some unknown goal, he's a loving trickster god for Pete's sake. Holding her back a grade might be necessary, we don't know how bad the cheating has affected Annie, she might not know how to find the area of a circle or whatever, doubtful though. Forbidding her from going to the forest seems like the safe thing to do from any parent's perspective too. All of this sucks, but save for the giant gently caress off room it's not abusive especially from anyone's perspective that's over the age of 20 and not a mythical being. In summation: Anthony Carver is a tosser, but which of the two is the more abusive situation: letting your kid hang out with someone you know murdered some folk and also letting her go into the woods that are also proven to be not entirely safe while shirking her academic studies, or not doing that and having her make up the classes she effectively flunked? Her living situation is straight up abuse though, and he's a jerky, neglectful person.
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May 14, 2015 20:10
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Wulfolme posted:Tony is going to tell Kat to stop distracting Antimony from her studies and then after a sad look Annie will refuse to acknowledge Kat for the rest of the chapter. Then I'm hoping that we cut to Kat demanding an explanation from her parents for why Tony is such a poo poo and we get a few pages of Donald filling us in on what important matters has been attending to.
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May 14, 2015 21:22
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I like Anthony Carver simply for what he represents - He's the biggest challenge that will help Antimony overcome her flaws (via "defeating" him). He's definitely an abusive figure, and a terrible father, but a good story device for the Hero's Journey. Also he's not Humbert Humbert so I guess he has that going for him.
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May 15, 2015 00:06
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Most of the abuse that Anthony did was before he appeared in the comic outside of a flashback for the first time.
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May 15, 2015 01:23
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Yeah, it's not really clear what happened with the two of them between the time Surma died and when Annie came to the court. In the earlier flashbacks, Annie is acting like any other child her age, but by the time she's at school she's very stoic. Coyote mentions it as being because of her father, which could mean any number of things. We know he was always very quiet and proper with her, calling her Antimony and not Annie and it rubbed off on her. Like, Anja says she can call her and Donald by name, but she keeps to Mr and Mrs Donlan. Also, in my opinion, Annie makes a point to call her parents mother and father, she even catches herself once ("You know my m... mother?" implies to me she stopped short of saying mum). She's only said mummy once, when she was crying with Kat. Related to that page, I always felt like she never had a chance to properly grieve for her mother, and I'm dreading that the moment Anthony went full-on awful happened after Annie took her to the ether. Like, I don't feel the Anthony in this page could match up with the current Anthony, but of course there's a lot more of his character to reveal.
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May 15, 2015 02:14
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Well, to be fair a lot of adults tell younger ones to "just call me [name]" but shy or polite kids will still say mr. or mrs. afterwards. The m...mother thing could just be nervous stuttering but your version would make sense too.
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May 15, 2015 02:32
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So....what exactly did Surma see in Tony, again?
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May 15, 2015 02:37
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Tubesock Holocaust posted:So....what exactly did Surma see in Tony, again? At this point the only thing that makes sense to me is some kind of arranged marriage by the Court.
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May 15, 2015 02:40
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