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Kibner posted:At this point, pretty much any new system would have the vast majority of it's mechanics appear on a list like this. Although, those usually have a new idea that everything else is centered around. Hey my Duckman game that uses a vague approximation of craps as the resolution mechanic isn't derived from any other game... except craps, I guess.
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May 15, 2015 16:29
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mastershakeman posted:Did people hate those weapon/nonweapon proficiencies? It's weird they disappeared to where the word got reused. They didn't really disappear. They just got reworked a bit for 3E. Weapon (and armor) proficiencies became class features and feats. NWPs became skills.
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May 15, 2015 16:30
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mastershakeman posted:Did people hate those weapon/nonweapon proficiencies? It's weird they disappeared to where the word got reused. That is, forging a document might be roll 3d6 or 1d20 and get equal to or lower than your DEX to succeed, but if your character started with 15 DEX then you'd always have a 75% chance to succeed for the entire life of your character barring any circumstantial modifiers (or items that increased DEX). NWPs would let you get better at forging a document while still keeping your DEX as is, and optionally would allow the table to differentiate between the 15 DEX Thief and the 15 DEX Ranger: the Thief that took the Forging NWP could actually attempt to forge documents as part of their criminal background, while the Ranger that didn't, couldn't. I don't know how much these systems were used or how well they were received, but it's clear to me that they were/would've been obsoleted by moving to the [d20+modifier vs DC] and skill category system of 3rd Ed and beyond. gradenko_2000 fucked around with this message at 17:38 on May 15, 2015 |
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May 15, 2015 16:36
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P.d0t posted:Eh, they did basically the same thing with Saving Throws in 4e; recycling terms for something different is not new. Even after literally years, there are one or two folks in my 4E game who still think "Saving Throw" means "Fort/Reflex/Will." I've gotten to where I just tell them to roll a d20 instead of asking for a save. Doesn't Next use "hit dice" as a kind of healing mechanic? I thought I saw a reference to rolling hit dice to regain hit points somewhere.
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May 15, 2015 16:42
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P.d0t posted:How are hit dice different in 5e than what you're used to, though? AD&D hit dice were a catchall phrase most frequently used to include both PC level (but not including levels over 9, or 10 if you were a rogue/wizard  ) and monster strength.
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May 15, 2015 16:46
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TheAwfulWaffle posted:Doesn't Next use "hit dice" as a kind of healing mechanic? I thought I saw a reference to rolling hit dice to regain hit points somewhere. That concept though is taken from 3.5 Edition's Unearthed Arcana as "Reserve Points", or in Mike Mearls' own Iron Heroes: quote:You have reserve points equal to your maximum hit points. Whenever you engage in nonstrenuous activity, you may choose to convert 1 reserve point to heal 1 hit point per minute. Remember that whenever you receive healing, you heal an amount of nonlethal damage equal to the hit point damage at the same time. During these minutes, you catch your breath, the pain from a twisted ankle fades, or a cut stops bleeding and slowly starts to heal. You do not gain reserve-point healing while engaged in combat or undertaking other strenuous actions such as climbing a wall or running a long distance. EDIT: I don't think it's meant to be analogous to 4e's Healing Surges, insofar as Reserve Points weren't predecessors of Healing Surges either. And if they were, then it also missed the point because healing in 5e is not at all capped by Hit Dice Healing, nor is there a way to tap into Hit Dice Healing mid-battle apart from a variant rule in the DMG somewhere. gradenko_2000 fucked around with this message at 17:04 on May 15, 2015 |
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May 15, 2015 16:53
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Kibner posted:At this point, pretty much any new system would have the vast majority of it's mechanics appear on a list like this. Although, those usually have a new idea that everything else is centered around. Yeah, the core architecture is where innovation happens. You can use 100% recycled mechanics with a fresh core approach and produce something totally innovative. This happens all the time in wargames: SAGA is probably one is the most innovative wargames recently, and it essentially blends Yhatzee into a historical skirmish game. Both Chain of Command and Sword & Spear also use dice pool activations, but all three "feel" different enough in their application. During Next development it became clear that Mearls did not understand how core / modular design works. There's no core design principles guiding development. It's all surface-level riffing and remixing of prior editions and other games. It's ingredients without a recipe.
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May 15, 2015 16:57
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CON should just be renamed "luck." You survive the disease or poison, or have more HP, because of luck.
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May 15, 2015 17:23
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gradenko_2000 posted:My understanding of non-weapon proficiencies was that it was simply a way to allow characters to get better at OSR-type skill checks apart from letting characters increase their entire attribute score. Yeah, I'm just idly wondering why the move to the skill system happened. I really prefer a million tiny fiddly nonweapon proficiencies to all encompassing skills, as I really feel it lets you flesh out characters a lot differently.
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May 15, 2015 17:36
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mastershakeman posted:Yeah, I'm just idly wondering why the move to the skill system happened. I really prefer a million tiny fiddly nonweapon proficiencies to all encompassing skills, as I really feel it lets you flesh out characters a lot differently.
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May 15, 2015 17:40
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mastershakeman posted:Yeah, I'm just idly wondering why the move to the skill system happened. I really prefer a million tiny fiddly nonweapon proficiencies to all encompassing skills, as I really feel it lets you flesh out characters a lot differently. That's why I like Palladium so much. Nothing tells people more about my character than his 74% (76% would convey a totally different person!) proficiency in Boat Building, and that while he has Pilot: Boat, he lacks Pilot: Airboat. theironjef fucked around with this message at 17:47 on May 15, 2015 |
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May 15, 2015 17:41
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My character is practically invisible. Moves in and out of shadows and only the most trained eye can see him. But he's louder than a freight train doing this.
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May 15, 2015 17:46
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MonsieurChoc posted:Hmm. You know, what with the unbalanced classes, misworded rules, and low-hp/high-damage things, if you only add a ton of obscure rules only the DM knows that affect gameplay in unforeseen ways, 5E could make a decent SaGa rpg. Nah, in SaGa dudes with swords are actually really powerful, or have we already forgotten how stupid good Lifesprinkler was? Edit: Now I'm wondering, what system would you use to run a SaGa game? Is there one for modeling the ridiculous range of characters and powers and settings in a game like SaGa Frontier? Omnicrom fucked around with this message at 18:04 on May 15, 2015 |
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May 15, 2015 17:57
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Master Twig posted:My character is practically invisible. Moves in and out of shadows and only the most trained eye can see him. Coincidentally, he's a lightning rail thief.
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May 15, 2015 17:59
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moths posted:Yeah, the core architecture is where innovation happens. You can use 100% recycled mechanics with a fresh core approach and produce something totally innovative. This happens all the time in wargames: SAGA is probably one is the most innovative wargames recently, and it essentially blends Yhatzee into a historical skirmish game. Both Chain of Command and Sword & Spear also use dice pool activations, but all three "feel" different enough in their application. I'm not sure how someone can put that kind of criticism in a list type thing like being discussed earlier, but that is absolutely a key issue with 5e. Not that it takes other concepts and hastily adapts them to the 5e system, but that it didn't do so in a clean and unified way. Which leads to a whole bunch of rule and "ask your DM" issues.
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May 15, 2015 18:47
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mastershakeman posted:Yeah, I'm just idly wondering why the move to the skill system happened. I really prefer a million tiny fiddly nonweapon proficiencies to all encompassing skills, as I really feel it lets you flesh out characters a lot differently. As far as I know, the change happened when 3.0 came out. I've heard that the 3.0 skill system looks like Rolemaster's, but I don't know anything about Rolemaster and can't say if that's true or not. As for why? I think D&D circa 1999 was one of the few RPG's that didn't have a skill system of some sort. I would guess that it just seemed necessary to the designers. A slight tangent: I think it's noteworthy that D&D didn't start out with anything like a skill system. AFAIK, OD&D and 1E relied on specific class abilities, player knowledge, and ad hoc house rules to handle the sorts of actions that are now skills. 2E NWP's are only kinda-sorta "skills". The skill system in 3.X and 4E feels a little like a bad fit to me. I don't think the 3E system is very good at all, and I'm not sure that 4E did enough to improve upon it.
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May 15, 2015 18:49
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homullus posted:Coincidentally, he's a lightning rail thief. That's rough, those things are heavy.
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May 15, 2015 18:58
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I too prefer a skill system subdivided pointlessly into endless lists of minutia where making a character who's "athletic" is a grueling process of deciding how to best spread my handful of points between Climb, Run, Jump, Swim, Lift Gates, Bend Bars, Endurance, Resistance, Stamina, Resilience, and Use Rope.
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May 15, 2015 19:06
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Kai Tave posted:I too prefer a skill system subdivided pointlessly into endless lists of minutia where making a character who's "athletic" is a grueling process of deciding how to best spread my handful of points between Climb, Run, Jump, Swim, Lift Gates, Bend Bars, Endurance, Resistance, Stamina, Resilience, and Use Rope. Well yeah, it tells you so much more about your character. I mean if they have Stamina they probably went on a lot of forced marches, and if they have Resilience they were probably the target for cannonballs at a circus sideshow. Now if a character is just "athletic," how the hell are you supposed to figure out which of those is accurate besides just saying so and writing it on your sheet and acting accordingly? Nothing, that's what!
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May 15, 2015 19:09
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theironjef posted:Well yeah, it tells you so much more about your character. I mean if they have Stamina they probably went on a lot of forced marches, and if they have Resilience they were probably the target for cannonballs at a circus sideshow. Now if a character is just "athletic," how the hell are you supposed to figure out which of those is accurate besides just saying so and writing it on your sheet and acting accordingly? Nothing, that's what! I know you're being sarcastic but I do appreciate the difference between a sprinter and endurance runner. And if you want to be both go nuts. And that's without even addressing every other type of athletics. Basically I'd rather have niche skills that don't matter a ton mechanically and are very specific, but if you're in a spot where it applies (mountain climbing or whatever) it's inarguable instead of trying to convince the DM your athletics skill let's you swim rivers and scale cliffs and whatever else.
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May 15, 2015 19:53
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theironjef posted:That's rough, those things are heavy. Lightning rail cars weigh far less than traditional rail cars, because their entire locomotive system is pretty light.
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May 15, 2015 20:08
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Splicer posted:So I'm playing a wizard, is there a nice free online thing anywhere that lets me view the spells by level and class? Either one of these should do. http://salty-ridge-7989.herokuapp.com/ http://donjon.bin.sh/5e/spells/
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May 15, 2015 20:24
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This is exactly what I've been wanting. It even still shows what classes a spell is available for when filtering by a class, so I can see which spells are exclusive. EDIT: Oh wait, no EE spells, that's rough. I'd also recommend the following: http://asmor.com/5e/spellbook/ Vanguard Warden fucked around with this message at 20:38 on May 15, 2015 |
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May 15, 2015 20:35
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Vanguard Warden posted:This is exactly what I've been wanting. It even still shows what classes a spell is available for when filtering by a class, so I can see which spells are exclusive. Try the second link.
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May 15, 2015 20:38
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mastershakeman posted:I know you're being sarcastic but I do appreciate the difference between a sprinter and endurance runner. And if you want to be both go nuts. And that's without even addressing every other type of athletics. Hey DM Athletics should let me do athletic stuff. No, let's argue. Okay, I quit.
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May 15, 2015 20:45
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mastershakeman posted:Basically I'd rather have niche skills that don't matter a ton mechanically and are very specific, but if you're in a spot where it applies (mountain climbing or whatever) it's inarguable instead of trying to convince the DM your athletics skill let's you swim rivers and scale cliffs and whatever else. Something like a spell, then.
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May 15, 2015 20:47
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mastershakeman posted:I know you're being sarcastic but I do appreciate the difference between a sprinter and endurance runner. And if you want to be both go nuts. And that's without even addressing every other type of athletics. You seem like you'd be a pretty big fan of Rolemaster or even GURPS and the HERO SYSTEM to a lesser degree. Don't you think fiddly little poo poo like that clash with the generally very cinematic and abstract nature of the rest of Dungeons and Dragons?
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May 15, 2015 20:54
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gradenko_2000 posted:I don't know how much these systems were used or how well they were received, but it's clear to me that they were/would've been obsoleted by moving to the [d20+modifier vs DC] and skill category system of 3rd Ed and beyond. Most of the complaints I saw about NWPs in the Old Days dealt with one of two things a) bloat (check out this pdf of all the NWPs that appeared in various 2E products) and b) the fact that a 18 strength fighter could take the Smithing proficiency and instantly be a better smith than someone with lower Strength who had been smithing all his life. I suspect those are the reasons we got a limited skill list (with prohibitions against adding more skills) and skill ranks in 3E.
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May 15, 2015 21:04
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Selachian posted:(check out this pdf of all the NWPs that appeared in various 2E products) The table of contents alone is 9 pages long. I am kind of glad I skipped 2e.
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May 15, 2015 21:08
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There was a skill in the first edition of dark heresy specifically for getting drunk, which is cool. Use rope and poo poo like that, not so much.
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May 15, 2015 21:40
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Selachian posted:Most of the complaints I saw about NWPs in the Old Days dealt with one of two things a) bloat (check out this pdf of all the NWPs that appeared in various 2E products) and b) the fact that a 18 strength fighter could take the Smithing proficiency and instantly be a better smith than someone with lower Strength who had been smithing all his life. I played a homebrew where you got a bunch more points to put into each skill that were multiplied by a modifier which accounted for stat value and it was up to the player to see if he wanted to dump more points in for a perfect score (the equivalent of the lifelong smith). Made for a choice between optimization of getting a ton of skills or just having a few that your character was great at. 2e is so full of fiddly poo poo that I never noticed nwps being a big deal. I bet I would like gurps too and role master looks incredible from the wiki page on it. mastershakeman fucked around with this message at 21:50 on May 15, 2015 |
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May 15, 2015 21:44
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Fsmhunk posted:There was a skill in the first edition of dark heresy specifically for getting drunk, which is cool. Use rope and poo poo like that, not so much. There was also a skill for 'And now I say random poo poo to distract and confuse people for a round or two before the party jumps them or otherwise stall for time.' Guardians of the Galaxy showed the perfect use for it.
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May 15, 2015 21:53
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^^Blather is the best skill and I miss it terribly when I can't have it. Using anything else when trying to deliberately bore someone to tears just seems wrong. "I grew up in a family of acrobats but I always harboured a secret love of all forms of sailing and the detailed social history of all the local planes for the past three thousand years. I can easily set up this ship rigging in the middle of a storm so that I can do a ritual tightrope-walking dance to convey our wishes to those creatures from the plane of faaaaarts." goatface fucked around with this message at 21:58 on May 15, 2015 |
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May 15, 2015 21:56
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The real answer is to use skills divided from attributes and to have the skills be custom-made backgrounds rather then a strict list, assuming you want skills to exist for more then just "DO A THING IN A DUNGEON." I mean if you're playing a dungeon crawler with minimal story and even more minimal out of dungeon material then sure, you want a strict list of "skills" that all correspond to stuff you'd do in the dungeon, but that's pretty drat rare these days. Personally I want a game that gives you both by separating "Stuff I Do Not To Die In The Dungeon" and "Stuff That Makes My Character Interesting Outside The Dungeon" but somehow ttg developers haven't had that apparently super difficult to understand idea.
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May 15, 2015 21:58
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ProfessorCirno posted:Personally I want a game that gives you both by separating "Stuff I Do Not To Die In The Dungeon" and "Stuff That Makes My Character Interesting Outside The Dungeon" but somehow ttg developers haven't had that apparently super difficult to understand idea. Death To Ability Scores. Like, if ability scores were to be the beginning, middle, and end of chargen, then it would be fine. But we layer enough poo poo on top, that the simplicity of ability scores is completely lost. Then the fact that they govern in-combat and out-of-combat design becomes a liability rather than a simplification of the system.
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May 15, 2015 22:07
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ProfessorCirno posted:The real answer is to use skills divided from attributes and to have the skills be custom-made backgrounds rather then a strict list, assuming you want skills to exist for more then just "DO A THING IN A DUNGEON." I'd rather learn skills as my character progresses, not via writing up my background. That way even dirtfarmer Jr can learn to read and climb ropes and alchemy and whatever else. I guess I really really like fiddly stuff and don't have an issue with it vs d&ds supposed cinematic feel. mastershakeman fucked around with this message at 22:20 on May 15, 2015 |
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May 15, 2015 22:16
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Lol, since when did D&D chargen let you learn skills as you progress.
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May 15, 2015 22:18
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thespaceinvader posted:Lol, since when did D&D chargen let you learn skills as you progress. Technically, 3e with their skill points/level system did this.
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May 15, 2015 22:20
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mastershakeman posted:I'd rather learn skills as my character progresses, not via writing up my background. That way when dirtfarmer Jr can learn to read and climb ropes and alchemy and whatever else. ahh yes, the old "Shitfarmer phase is a feature" mindset. Have you met my DM? Characters need some buttons to push from the word go, otherwise you have no business being a goddamn adventurer in the first place.
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May 15, 2015 22:20
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Start with four skills/talents/backgrounds/professions/interests/arglebargles, gain another every third level-up. End up with 10 by level 19. gently caress language skills though. Too much chance for uselessness or absolute necessity.
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May 15, 2015 22:24
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