|
Under the vegetable posted:I'm not sure how, after eight years of a center-right Obama presidency, people seem to think it's a shocking, biased, or illogical statement that Hillary will in practice be a similarly center-right politician. When the actual right wing in this country are literally lunatics and fascists I understand it skews the spectrum a little bit but there's nothing unreasonable about saying that Hillary is, in the global sense, a right wing politician. There are. Those are, however, the defining characteristics of the Republican party as long as you add "rich" to the list of adjectives.
|
#
?
May 16, 2015 00:37
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 29, 2024 13:58 |
|
|
Under the vegetable posted:I'm not sure how, after eight years of a center-right Obama presidency, people seem to think it's a shocking, biased, or illogical statement that Hillary will in practice be a similarly center-right politician. When the actual right wing in this country are literally lunatics and fascists I understand it skews the spectrum a little bit but there's nothing unreasonable about saying that Hillary is, in the global sense, a right wing politician. Obama is not center-right. I get that you feel, perhaps, that he is too hawkish. And maybe you're upset that he has not arrested a bunch of bankers after 2008. But center-right? On what grounds? And Hillary is not, in any sense, a right wing politician. Even by European standards, if you've been paying attention to what the European right-wing has been doing lately.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2015 00:39
|
|
|
Concerned Citizen posted:And Hillary is not, in any sense, a right wing politician. Even by European standards, if you've been paying attention to what the European right-wing has been doing lately. People seem to not notice that many European nations have literally fascist parties that are actual political parties that win actual seats in government.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2015 01:19
|
|
|
Wheeee posted:People seem to not notice that many European nations have literally fascist parties that are actual political parties that win actual seats in government. You mean like the Tea Party here? Ours are both fascist and theocratic.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2015 01:22
|
|
|
Evil Fluffy posted:You mean like the Tea Party here? Ours are both fascist and theocratic. No they aren't. Jesus christ dude. Europe has parties that literally heil hitler and march on immigrant communities to beat them up. Tea Party shitlords just whine and wish they had the 1950s again from the comfort of their armchairs.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2015 01:31
|
|
|
Evil Fluffy posted:You mean like the Tea Party here? Ours are both fascist and theocratic. The Tea Party are a bunch of frightened old conservatives who've bought into an astroturfed movement and who occasionally gather with their guns and circlejerk about how badass they are despite having done nothing but pushed a few ineffectual idiots into the House. In Europe there are fascist parties running in national elections and winning significant portions of the votes, while their base of extremely angry nationalists physically assault political opponents and minorities.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2015 01:36
|
|
|
Seriously, read up on Golden Dawn.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2015 01:42
|
|
|
Under the vegetable posted:I'm not sure how, after eight years of a center-right Obama presidency, people seem to think it's a shocking, biased, or illogical statement that Hillary will in practice be a similarly center-right politician. When the actual right wing in this country are literally lunatics and fascists I understand it skews the spectrum a little bit but there's nothing unreasonable about saying that Hillary is, in the global sense, a right wing politician. Whenever anyone accuses Clinton or the Democrats of being right wing "in the global sense" they never once actually point to a single international right wing politician or party to compare them to.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2015 02:36
|
|
|
Under the vegetable posted:I'm not sure how, after eight years of a center-right Obama presidency, people seem to think it's a shocking, biased, or illogical statement that Hillary will in practice be a similarly center-right politician. When the actual right wing in this country are literally lunatics and fascists I understand it skews the spectrum a little bit but there's nothing unreasonable about saying that Hillary is, in the global sense, a right wing politician. Try answering this question: How is Hillary a "center-right" candidate? Looking at your answer, go ahead and add in all of the things you left out in order to make her seem as right wing as possible. Subtract all of the fox news worthy "she's a heartless and power hungry monster" nonsense, just leaving actual positions. Now you should end up with a left-moderate candidate.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2015 02:59
|
|
|
Fulchrum posted:There is if you know the slightest loving thing about the politics of the rest of the world, and know that the right wing in Europe does NOT consist of a single bespectacled man saying maybe we can not have the rich be spat upon by every citizen, in addition to having all their assets seized for the good of the people. I would compare them to Sweden's Moderaterna, maybe. They believe in the same neoliberal policies that Obama's administration has maintained.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2015 03:42
|
|
|
Oi Oi Oi!quote:In Burlington, Vermont, 242 Main Street was originally the location of the city's water department. A nondescript building situated near the campus of the University of Vermont and across from a jewelry store, it would look more like an old middle school if not for the graffiti covering the front door and the sign next to it that reads, "Celebrating 25 Years of Art & Music."
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2015 04:14
|
|
|
Wheeee posted:People seem to not notice that many European nations have literally fascist parties that are actual political parties that win actual seats in government. This isn't really relevant. Yeah, Europe's right-wing is considerably more fascistic than ours at the tolerated extremes[1], but that doesn't have anything to do with the claim that Hillary is similar politically to the Tories or something. I mean, I disagree with that claim, but talking about Golden Dawn doesn't disprove it, because they're not "center-right" by any stretch of the imagination. [1] - This could also well be due to government structure in some sense. I'd bet that if the Senate went to nationwide proportional representation the KKK party would have seats. We'd probably also have a literal neo-reactionary Senator, like literal "go back to Kings and send women back to the kitchens" people campaigning and winning. (This is an example, I'm aware Britain doesn't use party list proportional voting)
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2015 04:50
|
|
|
Jackson Taus posted:[1] - This could also well be due to government structure in some sense. I'd bet that if the Senate went to nationwide proportional representation the KKK party would have seats. No, because there are nowhere near enough true hardcore racists to get 1% of vote.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2015 04:58
|
|
|
Sure, the US system tends to cut out the extremes. But is Hillary closer to the Tories? The Tories have seemingly made it their mission to tear down every aspect of the UK welfare state and privatize NHS. Hillary's 2008 health care plan, if implemented in full, would likely have eventually lead to single payer. The Tories are anti-immigration, Hillary is pro-path to citizenship. The Tories tripled tuition, Hillary wants more funding to shrink the cost of college. It's hard to do direct 1:1 international comparisons, because context matters a lot and a policy in the UK might not make sense as a policy in the US, but I think it's clear Hillary would fit in fairly well with Labour in an alternate universe where she was somehow transported to the UK.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2015 05:05
|
|
|
Nintendo Kid posted:No, because there are nowhere near enough true hardcore racists to get 1% of vote. I disagree with this, though I know where you're coming from. If the US had a pure-PR system and people had faith that their votes would count toward seat total, I bet we'd see 3-5% each for the far left and far right. 1% is a pretty small hurdle in many electoral systems; this is why Germany has such a ridiculous threshold to enter parliament.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2015 05:06
|
|
|
Concerned Citizen posted:Sure, the US system tends to cut out the extremes. But is Hillary closer to the Tories? The Tories have seemingly made it their mission to tear down every aspect of the UK welfare state and privatize NHS. Hillary's 2008 health care plan, if implemented in full, would likely have eventually lead to single payer. The Tories are anti-immigration, Hillary is pro-path to citizenship. The Tories tripled tuition, Hillary wants more funding to shrink the cost of college. It's a situation where the parties happen to intersect because one country is on the, shall we say high side dropping low and the other is on the low side aiming to get to the high side. When you already have a full healthcare system for example, it's hard to go straight from that to like pre-ACA American health care system. Aliquid posted:I disagree with this, though I know where you're coming from. If the US had a pure-PR system and people had faith that their votes would count toward seat total, I bet we'd see 3-5% each for the far left and far right. 1% is a pretty small hurdle in many electoral systems; this is why Germany has such a ridiculous threshold to enter parliament. Most hardcore racists wouldn't dare vote for an out and out racist party, if for no other reason than they're worried people might find out. And the KKK in specific is national laughingstock for decades too. Same reason the American Nazi Party would never get 1% of the vote (and yes they still exist or at least did as of 2012: http://www.americannaziparty.com/ )
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2015 05:12
|
|
|
Aliquid posted:I disagree with this, though I know where you're coming from. If the US had a pure-PR system and people had faith that their votes would count toward seat total, I bet we'd see 3-5% each for the far left and far right. 1% is a pretty small hurdle in many electoral systems; this is why Germany has such a ridiculous threshold to enter parliament. The UK has a FPTP system and has more extreme parties in Parliament.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2015 05:13
|
|
|
ElrondHubbard posted:Try answering this question: How is Hillary a "center-right" candidate? Then subtract all the things she's actually taken a held an opinion about that wasn't a shift that reflected popular at the time or that she's actually taken a position on, and you're left with "champion for female equal rights" and most of the not-fox-news-worthy-garbage, with the net result that you get a right-of-center, but still moderate and mainly focus-group-tested candidate. She's a moderate, but not on the left.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2015 05:16
|
|
|
Evil Fluffy posted:You mean like the Tea Party here? Ours are both fascist and theocratic. Lol.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2015 05:21
|
|
|
Feather posted:Then subtract all the things she's actually taken a held an opinion about that wasn't a shift that reflected popular at the time or that she's actually taken a position on, and you're left with "champion for female equal rights" and most of the not-fox-news-worthy-garbage, with the net result that you get a right-of-center, but still moderate and mainly focus-group-tested candidate. Hillary surely is a "focus group tested" candidate. She comes off as a bit sterile, and I think that's a lot of the reason people dislike her. But she was known to support single payer during the healthcare fight (in 1994 she publicly predicted it would happen by the end of her husband's second term), she's backed raising taxes on the wealthy, etc. I think she is very middle of the road, inching more toward the center-left on a number of issues. She's to the right of Pelosi, sure, but to the left of the (now extinct) Blue Dogs. She is a true mainline Democrat. That's why I have trouble understanding people's hatred of her - it's like having a deep seated hatred for Barbara Boxer. On the other hand, I think she's an able administrator and would do a better job than Obama has.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2015 05:38
|
|
|
computer parts posted:The UK has a FPTP system and has more extreme parties in Parliament. Which parties?
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2015 05:50
|
|
|
Daduzi posted:Which parties? The Tories
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2015 05:52
|
|
|
computer parts posted:The UK has a FPTP system and has more extreme parties in Parliament. To be fair, they would be much more represented under PR, you know that. Nintendo Kid posted:Most hardcore racists wouldn't dare vote for an out and out racist party, if for no other reason than they're worried people might find out. And the KKK in specific is national laughingstock for decades too. Same reason the American Nazi Party would never get 1% of the vote (and yes they still exist or at least did as of 2012: http://www.americannaziparty.com/ ) BNP did much better than that a few years ago.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2015 05:53
|
|
|
He's...wrong.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2015 05:54
|
|
|
The American right wing is "the poor and minorities can go gently caress themselves" while the European right wing consists of "we will actively hunt down and destroy all immigrants"
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2015 06:22
|
|
|
Concerned Citizen posted:It's hard to do direct 1:1 international comparisons, because context matters a lot and a policy in the UK might not make sense as a policy in the US, but I think it's clear Hillary would fit in fairly well with Labour in an alternate universe where she was somehow transported to the UK. This should not be surprising since the Clintons and Blair were responsible for "Third Way-ism" and "New Labour" and all that neo-liberal crap. Labour was cooler when they were actual socialists instead of milquetoast Tories. (That's how someone explained the UK to me once, I dunno)
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2015 06:37
|
|
|
Joementum posted:I do too. Fortunately, his Instagram is fantastic. The OKCupid profile I made for him is still up!  But there's a typo in it and I can't remember the password to fix it. 
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2015 06:49
|
|
|
Scrub-Niggurath posted:The American right wing is "the poor and minorities can go gently caress themselves" while the European right wing consists of "we will actively hunt down and destroy all immigrants" To be fair you can also find the latter kind of right wing in US border states.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2015 07:02
|
|
|
John Kasich doesn't have time to bleed.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2015 07:10
|
|
|
DOOP posted:This should not be surprising since the Clintons and Blair were responsible for "Third Way-ism" and "New Labour" and all that neo-liberal crap. They were also getting their lily white asses handed to them regularly when that happened. But more soul crushing relentless right wing authoritarianism ruling unopposed surely would have been a great thing so long as there would still be a party that leftists found idealogically pure. Fulchrum fucked around with this message at 09:05 on May 16, 2015 |
|
#
?
May 16, 2015 09:01
|
|
|
Fulchrum posted:They were also getting their lily white asses handed to them regularly when that happened. But more soul crushing relentless right wing authoritarianism ruling unopposed surely would have been a great thing so long as there would still be a party that leftists found idealogically pure. Yep that certainly was the point of that post. One thing I'm hoping we get to avoid due to Hilary adopting the party line is the I'm more hawkish than you debate which unlike the rest of the election is just depressing instead of depressing and funny. SirKibbles fucked around with this message at 11:20 on May 16, 2015 |
|
#
?
May 16, 2015 11:13
|
|
|
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/rubio-cashed-out-retirement-before-presidential-run/ar-BBjQjlnquote:DENVER — Sen. Marco Rubio cashed out most of his retirement savings while preparing to launch his bid for the Republican presidential nomination, records released Friday show.  I guess he's thinking that he won't need that retirement fund with a President's 200k a year pension? William Bear fucked around with this message at 12:14 on May 16, 2015 |
|
#
?
May 16, 2015 12:11
|
|
|
Aliquid posted:To be fair, they would be much more represented under PR, you know that. Not sure if you're aware of it, but the BNP don't exist in America!
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2015 12:19
|
|
|
Nintendo Kid posted:Same reason the American Nazi Party would never get 1% of the vote (and yes they still exist or at least did as of 2012: http://www.americannaziparty.com/ ) The American Nazi party made it onto the Illinois ballots in 2008. Ihate Illinois Nazis.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2015 14:15
|
|
|
Joementum posted:John Kasich doesn't have time to bleed. My brain hurts because you quoted Ventura
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2015 14:24
|
|
|
Daduzi posted:To be fair you can also find the latter kind of right wing in US border states. Not in any political authority, at least not in Texas. The GOP here is very keen at taking a blind eye to immigrants because they feed the demands of cheap labor that businesses have.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2015 14:55
|
|
|
Bizarro Kanyon posted:The American Nazi party made it onto the Illinois ballots in 2008. Ihate Illinois Nazis. I don't hate so much as just ignore MIGF.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2015 15:36
|
|
|
William Bear posted:http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/rubio-cashed-out-retirement-before-presidential-run/ar-BBjQjln Stupid Gen X'er
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2015 15:58
|
|
|
SirKibbles posted:Yep that certainly was the point of that post. One thing I'm hoping we get to avoid due to Hilary adopting the party line is the I'm more hawkish than you debate which unlike the rest of the election is just depressing instead of depressing and funny.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2015 18:27
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 29, 2024 13:58 |
|
|
Nessus posted:I expect at least some Republicans to try to attack Hillary from the left on war related stuff, which is going to be real weak and hilarious given, you know, the Republican Party. If we're real lucky they'll declare they've always been the party of peace and limited military engagement, as compared to Obama's lawless drone-ocracy. Aside from Rand, would they? While they might manage to restrain themselves from openly declaring simultaneous war on Iran, Iraq, Syria, and Russia during the general (no guarantees as far as primaries are concerned), they will still be falling back on the usual rhetoric of acting tough, bolstering the military, and policing the world. Hillary will probably be called out for being a limp wristed old lady on all four and for daring to engage in diplomacy with Putin. Images will be painted of an alternate world in which Russia is well behaved and the other three didn't go to poo poo because they were scared of making a republican president / secretary of state angry.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2015 19:17
|
|