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Rodyle posted:Those scenes don't correspond with one another and the one in UBW isn't even finished. Splitting the scene across two episodes is also a mistake.
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May 17, 2015 19:40
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Fangz posted:The point is that having literal magic not exist is a decision they made, to force Kiritsugu into that crisis, and he was ultimately able to accept that instead of carry on trying to find new, better magic. The reason the Holy Grail works the way it does is essentially because that's how real life works. EDIT: Fundamentally, the purpose of a story is to say something about the real world. The other option you're bringing up wouldn't say something about the world, so it would be a failure as a story. EDIT EDIT: Man, maybe if we change the story to be about something else entirely you could change how the hell the Holy Grail works but that's really, really missing the point. Twiddy fucked around with this message at 20:18 on May 17, 2015 |
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May 17, 2015 19:53
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Endorph posted:also its impossible for me to take kiritsugu seriously at all as a character because every single part of his motivation, backstory, and character development is just a string of dead women Wait, his dad, Kayneth, and Lancer are actually women!?!  Seriously, you're reading in some bullshit where there ain't any. Fangz posted:I think we are getting way too hung up on this minor point, when all I wanted to say was that that scene in F/Z was an effective turning point for Kiritsugu's character, whereas I think the corresponding scene in FSN lacks impact because it's just a character saying a bunch of things, and Shirou merely powers through. What do you mean by powering through? I think I understand it, and your concerns would have been alleviated if this adaptation were better at presenting the narrative points: Endorph posted:
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May 17, 2015 20:18
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ViggyNash posted:Seriously, you're reading in some bullshit where there ain't any
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May 17, 2015 20:21
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ViggyNash posted:Seriously, you're reading in some bullshit where there ain't any. Shirley, Natalia, Maiya, Iri... Dunno, it's not that bullshit when it's true. Anyways, we got what, 5, 6 eps left of this season? Hope there's some more good anime original content, I like that stuff.
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May 17, 2015 20:31
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Yeah, the anime-original stuff has all been pretty solid throughout the entire show so far, from the Rin / Ilya fight to Archer traveling all over time and over a bunch of different places to kill folks. I wonder if Nasu is behind all of that.
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May 17, 2015 20:39
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Wait, Archer is... him? He is archer? Or will be in the future? Gods, I'm such a retard and was wrong right up until they said it. Even after last episode. 
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May 17, 2015 21:54
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Poil posted:He is archer? Or will be in the future? He won't, at least not necessarily. The Throne of Heroes, where all Heroic Spirits reside, has a fun property of being completely and absolutely separated from the real world and the flow of time. Once you've become a HS, you've always been a Hs, and you'll remain one for eternity- someone could theoretically go back in time and prevent you from being born, but if you became a Heroic Spirit in your own timeframe that would have exactly zero effect on you.
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May 17, 2015 22:03
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Fangz posted:Crazy eyes only gets you so far. Wanting to jump in to save a little girl is literally the most generic shonen protagonist thing. Rin's the character who is unusual here. Usually those shonen characters aren't as powerless as Shirou. Fate does seem to imply every once in a while that doing the things you see Heroes do in manga will just get your killed and that's however everyone who isn't Shirou acts. Fangz posted:I'm saying the motivations for those actions are meaningless (or at least, lack weight) if they don't show us them through his actions. UBW is *not* the narrative to look at when comparing to F/Z, that's Heaven's Feel. Raenir Salazar fucked around with this message at 22:14 on May 17, 2015 |
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May 17, 2015 22:12
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Archer is just Shirou from an alternate timeline where he made that contract with the World and ended up gaining super powers in exchange for being a Counter Guardian. Type-Moon's universe allows for many different timelines that are all parallel to each other. As someone who made a contract with the World, the Shirou that became Archer is removed from the regular universe and placed in the Throne of Heroes, which as Aumanor said, exists completely outside the normal universe. The individuals who are in the Throne can be brought into the regular world by summoning magic, i.e. the Holy Grail War, but only for the duration of the current one (ideally, but as Gilgamesh proved, there are ways you can cheat that as a Servant).
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May 17, 2015 22:13
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ViggyNash posted:Wait, his dad, Kayneth, and Lancer are actually women!?! Kayneth and Lancer have nothing to do with his motivation, backstory, and character development. They're just bumps on the road. His dad, yes, but that's because he turned Shirley into a vampire.
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May 17, 2015 22:15
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Poil posted:Wait, Archer is... him? He is archer? Or will be in the future? Gods, I'm such a retard and was wrong right up until they said it. Even after last episode. So what did you think he was after last episode? I'm curious now.
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May 17, 2015 22:15
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Clarste posted:So what did you think he was after last episode? I'm curious now. 
Nyaa fucked around with this message at 22:44 on May 17, 2015 |
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May 17, 2015 22:30
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I know a lot of people thought Archer was Robin Hood.
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May 17, 2015 22:37
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Aumanor posted:He won't, at least not necessarily. The Throne of Heroes, where all Heroic Spirits reside, has a fun property of being completely and absolutely separated from the real world and the flow of time. Once you've become a HS, you've always been a Hs, and you'll remain one for eternity- someone could theoretically go back in time and prevent you from being born, but if you became a Heroic Spirit in your own timeframe that would have exactly zero effect on you. Clarste posted:So what did you think he was after last episode? I'm curious now. 
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May 17, 2015 22:48
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Yeah, I didn't really fully make the connection until the UBW movie. My big barrier was mainly appearance.
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May 17, 2015 22:59
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 I think that got posted in the original Deen FSN thread which is where it was spoiled for me, way back when.
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May 17, 2015 23:10
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Nate RFB posted:
Man, fully gray by 28? Things don't look good for Shirou's hair.
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May 17, 2015 23:21
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Fiend Computer posted:Man, fully gray by 28? Things don't look good for Shirou's hair. But man, his tan.
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May 17, 2015 23:23
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Fiend Computer posted:Man, fully gray by 28? Things don't look good for Shirou's hair.
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May 17, 2015 23:25
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Fiend Computer posted:Man, fully gray by 28? Things don't look good for Shirou's hair. And he finally got taller, just like Shirou always wanted. 
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May 17, 2015 23:39
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Fiend Computer posted:Man, fully gray by 28? Things don't look good for Shirou's hair. I believe the official explanation is magic.
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May 17, 2015 23:46
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Clarste posted:I believe the official explanation is magic. Actually, now that I look at it, it looks like his hair line is receding too. So over using magic is like over using hair care products? I can buy it.
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May 18, 2015 00:25
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Endorph posted:I know a lot of people thought Archer was Robin Hood.
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May 18, 2015 00:58
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Fiend Computer posted:Man, fully gray by 28? Things don't look good for Shirou's hair.
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May 18, 2015 01:07
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Clarste posted:I believe the official explanation is magic. His tan is definitely because of the overuse and burning out of his Magic Circuits trying to master Unlimited Blade Works over 20 years. I believe the hair is a similar story.
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May 18, 2015 01:21
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Nate RFB posted:
Wow he turns into young Kotomine Kirei
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May 18, 2015 01:40
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TheKnife posted:Wow he turns into young Kotomine Kirei Plot twist~~~
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May 18, 2015 01:47
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Decent ep. I'm glad the creepy Shinji scene was at least short.
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May 18, 2015 01:52
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Poil posted:Neat. But what happens if he becomes a HS again? Nothing, because it has already happened with his HS self? I assume there won't suddenly be two HS him. I'm trying to interpret the events of UBW had Archer actually been Kiritsugu (assuming you ignore the direct links like the pendant), and it is all kinds of hosed up. Fiend Computer posted:Actually, now that I look at it, it looks like his hair line is receding too. So over using magic is like over using hair care products? I can buy it. He combs his hair back? I mean, it isn't like Aizen's hairline receded. 
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May 18, 2015 02:35
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Endorph posted:I know a lot of people thought Archer was Robin Hood. Now you're all in on the joke.
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May 18, 2015 03:28
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Eej posted:Kayneth and Lancer have nothing to do with his motivation, backstory, and character development. They're just bumps on the road. His dad, yes, but that's because he turned Shirley into a vampire. AHAHAHAHA- Wait, are you saying that seriously? Because his killing his dad and the Kayneth/Lancer/Sola combo-murder are two of the most pivotal moments in Kiritsugu's character development. Endorph posted:dude you can mention women without it being a sexism thing Please do show me where I mentioned sexism in my post and then maybe we'll get somewhere.
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May 18, 2015 04:29
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Once again, Lancer dies in the most bullshit way possible and Kirei forces his servant to get killed on purpose. Never change, Holy Grail War.
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May 18, 2015 04:29
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Lancers are proof that luck isn't a dump stat.
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May 18, 2015 04:33
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ViggyNash posted:AHAHAHAHA- Reread the quote; they just said that yeah, killing his dad was important to his development, but dude, he had Maiya cap Kayneth and Sola-Ui like a stone cold motherfucker, it was more of a sign of how deep he was in his "Do what I gotta do" mindset. More pivotal is when he has to shoot down the plane that had Natalia which made him the person he was at the beginning of F/Z and when he realizes the Grail's evil and the futility of his actions up until then.
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May 18, 2015 04:45
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ViggyNash posted:AHAHAHAHA- I'll give you killing his dad, but the killing of the Lancer team was character exposition rather than character development.
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May 18, 2015 05:13
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Tarezax posted:I'll give you killing his dad, but the killing of the Lancer team was character exposition rather than character development. Eeeehh, I guess? I felt that whole scene existed to distinctly separate his and Saber's brands of idealism, since they're both technically looking for the same thing. Compendium posted:Reread the quote; they just said that yeah, killing his dad was important to his development, but dude, he had Maiya cap Kayneth and Sola-Ui like a stone cold motherfucker, it was more of a sign of how deep he was in his "Do what I gotta do" mindset. His killing Natalia was very much Stage 2 to his killing his dad. I'd argue that his killing his dad is actuallythe most pivotal moment in his development, since his killing Natalia was an example of how deeply ingrained his mindset is, no different from his killing Kayneth and co. by your argument.
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May 18, 2015 05:40
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The difference being he broke down gloriously for Natalia. Team Lancer, ehhhhh, screw you Saber. Basically, what I'm trying to say is that the people whose deaths (that he caused one way or another) affected Kerry's character and mindset directly were people he cared about and that Team Lancer's death was a way for him and Saber to clash and to really question said character and methods. Their end was a means to reinforce who he was and what he would do at that present time. That said, I will back off on the F/Z talk or this thread won't survive until the finale. Compendium fucked around with this message at 06:01 on May 18, 2015 |
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May 18, 2015 05:52
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Nitpicking that Kiritsugu also killed a couple of men and that someone's earlier statement about the hilarious Pathos Parade of Dead Ladies was an exaggeration doesn't really hide the fact that Urobuchi decided to give him a Pathos Parade of Dead Ladies to begin with. Hell, just reading Maiya's backstory can nick you, that's how edgy it is.
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May 18, 2015 07:06
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Fate Zero was written by Maximum Depression Urobuchi and it shows. The anime cuts are telling in that they're all points where clearly he went "okay yeah, too much."
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May 18, 2015 07:09
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