|
As has been said, if a game is coming out in this generation, it drat well better ship with quality of life features that you come to expect nowadays. Here are my top three must haves. Group Finder Don't give a poo poo if you think it kills community or not. It needs to be in and it needs to function. Sometimes I don't have or want to spend hours shouting in random channels to put together that perfect group. If it doesn't work out, peace out I'll try again in X amount of time when my deserter debuff falls off. Example of good ones would be WoW and Rift. They work and cross server queuing is good and cool. Example of poo poo ones would be TESO and SWTOR's half rear end first attempt at it. TESO's doesn't even work and whatever bullshit SWTOR did never worked for me ever. Honorable mention to Everquest 2 for having a metric fuckton of the best dungeons in gaming history and using the worst 5 of them for their fail attempt at a group finder dungeon options. Pretty Princess Dressup Make your make believe dude or dudette look like your favorite anime. Example of good systems like this is Rift. Any armor and weapons you find in game can be used to transmog. Doesn't matter if your class can wear the poo poo or not, you can still dress it up. Example of bad systems would be WoW where you not only have to keep the gear around wasting bank/void space, you have to pay to do it. gently caress fun taxes. I also hear FFXIV has a weird as gently caress system. Mentoring, Sidekicking Sometimes you want to play with a friend who isn't as good at video games as you are. You know she will never be on your level and you don't want to waste time on another character just to get in her butthole. Examples of good. City of Heroes, Rift. Examples of bad. Any game that doesn't have it. No I'm not a Rift fanboy but they do these three things correctly in my eyes.
|
#
?
May 18, 2015 06:50
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 31, 2024 19:07 |
|
|
Bieeardo posted:people still play crap like APB and Defiance i like defiance  also the show is really good
|
|
#
?
May 18, 2015 10:30
|
|
|
Deki posted:My point was more that CoX was nearly unplayable, I'd say definitely worse than Wildstar at launch. Neither of the two people that I knew that had it at launch managed to even get past character creation due to client/server issues. And yet it became beloved to it's small niche community. I played CoH at launch and don't know what you're talking about. It had its issues but it was far from "nearly unplayable". At the time I remember most people were commenting about ti being the best MMO launch they'd ever seen. Of course standards were lower at the time.
|
|
#
?
May 18, 2015 11:19
|
|
|
CoH was also pre-WoW. Wildstar didn't, or shouldn't, have the luxury of ignorance especially when created by "veterans".
|
|
#
?
May 18, 2015 12:39
|
|
|
poptart_fairy posted:CoH was also pre-WoW. Wildstar didn't, or shouldn't, have the luxury of ignorance especially when created by "veterans". Ex-WoW staff "veterans", at that.
|
|
#
?
May 18, 2015 13:38
|
|
|
Bieeardo posted:We've definitely come a long, long way from the days of waiting a couple of months for the launch dust to settle. There are still bugs at launch, and generally what you see in beta is what you'll see live, but you don't often see the same kind of cataclysmic pants-around-ankles fuckery. Do the base UI modules still crash all the time because I bet they do.
|
|
#
?
May 18, 2015 14:22
|
|
|
The Moon Monster posted:I played CoH at launch and don't know what you're talking about. It had its issues but it was far from "nearly unplayable". At the time I remember most people were commenting about ti being the best MMO launch they'd ever seen. Of course standards were lower at the time. I know you couldn't play on some (for the time) modern video cards and for some reason some people would always get ejected from the game after entering a zone transition. That's pretty bad. poptart_fairy posted:CoH was also pre-WoW. Wildstar didn't, or shouldn't, have the luxury of ignorance especially when created by "veterans". Oh definitely, but I'm just saying that if Carbine wasn't in a hosed up state, that it could manage to pull out of it's death spiral (It won't).
|
|
#
?
May 18, 2015 14:37
|
|
|
Givin posted:Mentoring, Sidekicking I am going to kick this one up a notch. Mentoring, Sidekicking is better than nothing but not nearly good enough. I do not want to compete in PvE with any of the players around me at all. I do not want to water down their experience by trivializing content just because I am higher level with better gear. I do not want all content except for those areas "appropriate for my level" to become obsolete. I don't want any of this to only be avoidable by actually forming a traditional party. I don't want to compete for resource nodes, quest items, etc. I want to be able to play with anyone and do anything that they are doing in such a way where it still feels rewarding and progressive regardless of our difference in level. I just want to play with anyone and everyone around me where all of these issues are taken care of for me in an automated fashion that feels natural and leaves no desire to try and micromanage it in game. GW2 is the only MMO out there which has done this correctly imo. Mentoring, Sidekicking is a much easier and lower effort way from a programmatic point of view to address this demand and fix the problem. It is not a design choice because it is a better approach. I have never felt that GW2's system is any less social. I have never felt like I was not getting more powerful. I have only ever felt like I never became "overpowered" but I think that is a good thing because you cannot become overpowered without trivializing content and making it become boring and obsolete.
|
|
#
?
May 18, 2015 14:57
|
|
|
Much of that's personal preference though, there are plenty of people that absolutely do want to trivialize old content once they've leveled past it. Not all of the things you've mentioned are must-have modern MMO features.
|
|
#
?
May 18, 2015 15:07
|
|
Deki posted:Oh definitely, but I'm just saying that if Carbine wasn't in a hosed up state, that it could manage to pull out of it's death spiral (It won't). Maybe if Carbine wasn't Carbine they could, or they weren't published by NCSoft, or they haven't already tanked the entire game. There's no fixing this game. FFXIV's turn around was only possible because of the name "Final Fantasy". I'll be pretty surprised if you can play Wildstar this time next year
|
|
|
#
?
May 18, 2015 15:12
|
|
|
Mattavist posted:Much of that's personal preference though, there are plenty of people that absolutely do want to trivialize old content once they've leveled past it. Not all of the things you've mentioned are must-have modern MMO features. How does this not get extremely boring though? I have never played an MMO where trivializing content in this manner feels fun or rewarding at all. I have met people who say that they are not interested in experiencing any of the old content and would rather just one shot everything as they are passing through to get to where ever they are going. I can understand that to a point but there are better ways to deal with that issue (see GW2's waypoint system). Even then, what these people really seem to want is constant release of new content that is at their level but what WS has proven and what we have all known for a while now is that it is impossible to release enough quality content like this fast enough. I am ok with accepting that this is a preference. I just don't understand why anyone would want content to become trivial and obsolete. Isn't it better design to try and find ways to keep it relevant and fun instead? Doing so does not mean brand new content is off the table or anything. Xavier434 fucked around with this message at 15:34 on May 18, 2015 |
|
#
?
May 18, 2015 15:31
|
|
|
We've soloed a lot of technically very trivial raids and got shittons of fun, hth. > I just don't understand why anyone would want content to become trivial and obsolete. Isn't it better design to try and find ways to keep it relevant and fun instead? Doing so does not mean brand new content is off the table or anything. Have fun grinding on a murloc in elwynn forest forever, while never actually feeling stronger. 
|
|
#
?
May 18, 2015 16:00
|
|
|
cthulhoo posted:Have fun grinding on a murloc in elwynn forest forever, while never actually feeling stronger. That is not how GW2 feels at all and if any MMO attempts to do what I am talking about and it results in being what you just described then they failed. You progress and feel stronger in GW2. That increase in strength just never becomes overwhelming to the point where the combat feels boring and unrewarding.
|
|
#
?
May 18, 2015 16:04
|
|
|
CoH had a long history of problems with NAT traversal in an era when in-home routers were gradually becoming the norm, like, even by the time of City of Villains, it still didn't work through a router.
|
|
#
?
May 18, 2015 16:06
|
|
|
lol
|
|
#
?
May 18, 2015 16:06
|
|
|
Maybe it works in GW2, however projecting your GW2 opinions on the whole spectrum of MMO games and its combined playerbase is fascinatingly dumb.Xavier434 posted:That increase in strength just never becomes overwhelming to the point where the combat feels boring and unrewarding. Ah yes going someplace through a noob zone while experiencing ~challenge~ sounds like a fascinating idea for a garden variety themepark mmo, maybe you should pitch this to carbine, seems right up their alley. cthulhoo fucked around with this message at 16:12 on May 18, 2015 |
|
#
?
May 18, 2015 16:08
|
|
|
cthulhoo posted:Maybe it works in GW2, however projecting your GW2 opinions on the whole spectrum of MMO games and its combined playerbase is fascinatingly dumb. People talk about features that they like in other MMOs and wish they were more common all of the time (see group finders, pretty princess dress up, open world pvp, etc). It often leads to discussions about why XYZ thing is good or bad. Talking about this is dumb now? cthulhoo posted:Ah yes going someplace through a noob zone while experiencing ~challenge~ sounds like a fascinating idea for a garden variety themepark mmo, maybe you should pitch this to carbine, seems right up their alley. I'm not talking about any activity that is more challenging than traversing a zone that is a few levels below your current level.
|
|
#
?
May 18, 2015 16:13
|
|
|
Xavier434 posted:That is not how GW2 feels at all and if any MMO attempts to do what I am talking about and it results in being what you just described then they failed. You progress and feel stronger in GW2. That increase in strength just never becomes overwhelming to the point where the combat feels boring and unrewarding. Killing a million mobs gets boring either way, some people have a lower tolerance for it and just prefer to mow down hordes of enemies instead of being "challenged" (I'm using the word loosely and since you've played GW2 you know why) all the time while clearing through a zone. Especially if it's clearing through a zone a 2nd, 3rd, etc. time. GW2's waypoint system does not solve "I don't really want to kill these dozens of mobs for a quest, but if I have to, at least let me one-shot everything in 10 seconds" issue. Also farming areas you've technically outleveled for ages is not the sort of content people usually want more of at the level cap, so scaling everyone to a newbie zone's level does not magically make that desire for new content go away. The same goes for dungeons, for all intents and purposes the level scaling in dungeons in eg. GW2 or FF14 serves the same purpose as level-cap versions of lowbie dungeons did in games like WoW, except you're saving a bit of dev time. Ultimately it's not going to keep people playing who burnt out and want new dungeons. Also combat GW2 absolutely gets trivial if you outlevel a zone enough, except they sabotaged it a bit with the way bonus stats from levels are attributed nowadays (big chunk every x levels instead of tiny amount every level, so if you're scaled to level x-1 you feel noticeably weaker all of a sudden). The effect is subjective of course, and for some people it's still not trivial enough so you could argue it's the worst of both worlds.
|
|
#
?
May 18, 2015 16:16
|
|
|
CoX wasn't nearly as good as some goons seem to act. It's a combination of fond memories and comparing it to shittier newer games like Wildstar that make it seem great.
|
|
#
?
May 18, 2015 16:18
|
|
|
Xavier434 posted:People talk about features that they like in other MMOs and wish they were more common all of the time (see group finders, pretty princess dress up, open world pvp, etc). Ah yes additional tedium for obsolete zones - a quality of life improvement much like LFG. Cool stuff, op. e: I obviously don't have a problem with this mechanic being optional if you want to level with a friend or something but forcing it on general populace of something like wow/swtor/etc is gotta produce p hilarious results cthulhoo fucked around with this message at 16:27 on May 18, 2015 |
|
#
?
May 18, 2015 16:22
|
|
|
Scaling should not be confused with replacing the need and demand for fresh content. That aspect of an MMO is still very important to be successful imo. I do feel as if GW2 has not been releasing new zones often enough, but I do not think that has anything to do with their existing level scaling feature.cthulhoo posted:Ah yes additional tedium for obsolete zones - a quality of life improvement much like LFG. Cool stuff, op. If you don't like it then that is fine, but you are being a dick about it. I was being sincere when I asked why people don't want this. It wasn't some kind of condescending jab. Xavier434 fucked around with this message at 16:33 on May 18, 2015 |
|
#
?
May 18, 2015 16:30
|
|
|
Xavier434 posted:People talk about features that they like in other MMOs and wish they were more common all of the time (see group finders, pretty princess dress up, open world pvp, etc) More MMOs should just drop pvp altogether. It's more than obvious by now that only an teeny tiny fraction of (MMO) players are into it, and the 'open-world pvp' canard is just a dog-whistle for ganking. Hell, there have been a couple MMOs devoted to these people and they've all crashed and burned. Shadowbane is probably the most infamous.
|
|
#
?
May 18, 2015 16:33
|
|
|
Also, balancing issues because in (futile) attempts to make pvp "fair" again and again make pve less fun. Which is bad.
|
|
#
?
May 18, 2015 16:35
|
|
|
I don't particularly enjoy open world pvp much myself. I just tossed it in there because I know others like it and ask for it more.
|
|
#
?
May 18, 2015 16:41
|
|
|
Verranicus posted:CoX wasn't nearly as good as some goons seem to act. It's a combination of fond memories and comparing it to shittier newer games like Wildstar that make it seem great. WarLocke posted:More MMOs should just drop pvp altogether. It's more than obvious by now that only an teeny tiny fraction of (MMO) players are into it, and the 'open-world pvp' canard is just a dog-whistle for ganking.
|
|
#
?
May 18, 2015 17:02
|
|
|
Asimo posted:The real problem is that you can either have fair and relatively balanced PVP matches or you can have progression-based gameplay. The two styles of are inherently incompatible and trying to do open PVP in a progression-based game invariably leads to it crashing and burning once a subset of players gets geared enough and strong enough to effortlessly roll the competition, who proceed to quit PVPing (or just quit the game entirely). Most of the MMOs where PVP kind of sort of works are the ones that basically make it a separate game mode, and even there you wind up having dumb bullshit like classes being balanced for one mode of gamplay only and being overpowered or useless in the other. Aka, GW2 Warrior Syndrome. Yeah, no argument with this. The best PvP I've seen is, no poo poo, the Legends PvP mode from DCUO. Specifically because the character options there are pre-defined, balanced against each other, and have NO connection to the greater PvE game.
|
|
#
?
May 18, 2015 17:10
|
|
|
Are there players who don't want pvp to be its own isolated game mode (other than those asking for open world pvp)? If so then why do they say that they want it?
|
|
#
?
May 18, 2015 17:16
|
|
|
Xavier434 posted:Are there players who don't want pvp to be its own isolated game mode (other than those asking for open world pvp)? If so then why do they say that they want it? There's the 'arena pvp' people I guess? Who want a marginally balanced fight but they want their pretty princess progression too? I don't have a problem with this in theory, consensual pvp is fine. I've just yet to find a MMO where the devs have managed to balance both pvp and pve when they interact like this without something getting hosed up. Traditionally, it's waves making GBS threads on pve when pvp changes are made.
|
|
#
?
May 18, 2015 17:20
|
|
|
Xavier434 posted:Are there players who don't want pvp to be its own isolated game mode (other than those asking for open world pvp)? If so then why do they say that they want it? because people like to lord their big-dick pvp gear over other people
|
|
#
?
May 18, 2015 17:20
|
|
|
Why not just go play a moba? Part of the point of pvp in an mmo is getting to use your character you spent hours on. Also XIV has balancedish pvp that doesn't affect pve because all skills can be tweaked to be different just in pvp like the dps with a combat res in pve can't do it in pvp. Also there's a bunch of pvp only skills that are cool and 99% of the userbase doesn't even know they exist cause no one pvps.
|
|
#
?
May 18, 2015 17:24
|
|
|
Well pretty princessing can coexist just fine. Gear progression to stomp your opponents? Ok I guess I can at least understand that point of view even if I don't enjoy it. Still though. PvP gear progression should still be able to exist in an environment that is isolated from pve.
|
|
#
?
May 18, 2015 17:26
|
|
|
Xavier434 posted:Well pretty princessing can coexist just fine. nobody gives a poo poo about mmo pvp because it's stupid and there are many far more popular genres of games that do pvp infinitely better
|
|
#
?
May 18, 2015 18:58
|
|
|
"I don't like MMO PVP and thus am perfect to be the one to decide how it works for those that do enjoy it"
|
|
#
?
May 18, 2015 19:12
|
|
|
Hasn't mmo pvp kinda fallen by the wayside in general ever since mobas got big?
|
|
#
?
May 18, 2015 19:14
|
|
|
Organized? Yeah, definitely. But there are a lot of people who like open world stuff and that's not an itch you can scratch in any other genre yet really.
|
|
#
?
May 18, 2015 19:16
|
|
|
DAOC was the pinnacle for me when it came to pvp as that was its endgame and was taking chances for its time. GW2 siege stuff was cool but there was no real incentive to do it. I never got deep into Darkfall or Mortal Online, so I cannot comment on that niche market. Age of Wushu's pvp is a terrible mess, but what the game allows you to do easily makes up for it. Both Age of Conan (White Sands) and Warhammer had fun pvp and then it falls apart the moment you begin leveling pass a certain threshold. edit: Wildstar's pvp stuff never popped for me. 
|
|
#
?
May 18, 2015 19:36
|
|
|
Xavier434 posted:Scaling should not be confused with replacing the need and demand for fresh content. That aspect of an MMO is still very important to be successful imo. I do feel as if GW2 has not been releasing new zones often enough, but I do not think that has anything to do with their existing level scaling feature. Eh the scaling, combined with GW2's anemic combat, is why I didn't like it. I guess it's my fault for being a completionist, but trying to get all the hearts turned into this hell grind, but unlike other hell grinds I couldn't trivially deal with all the mob hordes and had to pay a modicum of attention. I know there is a large FFXIV cult here, but it's an example of where I think they did playing with friends right. First off you can have every class on one character so no alts, because gently caress alts, so you can usually just swap to a class around the level your friend is, well til you level them all. And then there are FATEs which are like GW2 events, but to do them you have to sync your level to an appropriate one. This way you can play with your friend but tis optional, you don't just get nerfed level wise for playing in a certain zone. Also the fact that dungeons could sync helped in the playing with friends aspect too. On mmo pvp I only ever enjoyed it in WAR, which as Mayor McCheese said, it just fell apart in the upper levels of tier 3 and was ruined by tier 4. Tier 2 pvp was the best though. Granted I'm not a big pvp type player and if I want that experience I just play a couple rounds of shooter dejure or a moba and then get bored/angry and go back to being a carebear. 
|
|
#
?
May 18, 2015 19:42
|
|
|
Eimi posted:I know there is a large FFXIV cult here, but it's an example of where I think they did playing with friends right. First off you can have every class on one character so no alts, because gently caress alts, so you can usually just swap to a class around the level your friend is, well til you level them all. And then there are FATEs which are like GW2 events, but to do them you have to sync your level to an appropriate one. This way you can play with your friend but tis optional, you don't just get nerfed level wise for playing in a certain zone. Also the fact that dungeons could sync helped in the playing with friends aspect too. I think ff14's version is the worst I've experienced personally. My experience levelling a class with a friend was that if I didn't have significantly more playtime than he did it would not have worked out. He would have a bunch of quests to do and I had almost none since I had done almost all of them on other jobs before he got interested. So what that meant was I had to grind fates when he wasn't around to keep on par. Tedious. But even in a hypothetical where 2 people just level up together it still kind of sucks since so many things are solo instanced. Also I hate how the game removes abilities when you delevel. It is the worst.
|
|
#
?
May 18, 2015 20:15
|
|
|
Mattavist posted:Much of that's personal preference though, there are plenty of people that absolutely do want to trivialize old content once they've leveled past it. Not all of the things you've mentioned are must-have modern MMO features. Literally one guy out of thousands will do this in practice, so let's bend over everyone else who does not really want a rigorously stratified leveling experience for the sake of that one guy. Every game does it that way so that's obviously the only way to do it amirite.
|
|
#
?
May 18, 2015 20:24
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 31, 2024 19:07 |
|
|
Xavier434 posted:Well pretty princessing can coexist just fine. protip: people who really like the combination of flawless gear farming and pvp like it because they know almost nobody else does and they'll get a lot of easy wins
|
|
#
?
May 18, 2015 20:27
|
|