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i've always found the pig pile to be the most effective
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May 17, 2015 07:33
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What is expected of a new officer in regard to his ability to use (and more importantly, I guess, how comfortable he feels using) a baton or hand-to-hand/grappling? Anytime I've had a class on Defense And Arrest Tactics, whether in the military or with my last security company, I tend to look like a lanky uncoordinated goon. In the military, shooting would be a viable option in many situation (a fact that was evident to anyone we would be interacting with), and in security work there was no expectation to detain or physically restrict anyone except in extraordinary circumstances, so I was confident that it was a skill-set I'd never need to take seriously.
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May 17, 2015 08:00
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I guarantee that a fresh out the academy rookie is going to be more technically proficient with his baton and whatever flavor of defensive tactics is popular this training cycle than I would be. The real question is knowing when to use force and when you can talk it out and thats what a rookie really needs to learn. All that training mostly goes out the window anyway when you put hands on someone and they pull away. I'd reckon most cops use of forces devolve very quickly into a wrestling match on the ground with both parties winded and the cop shouting stop resisting on auto pilot while trying to get cuffs on.
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May 17, 2015 08:05
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If you don't regularly train with control tactics, and I'd venture to guess the number of officers that train regularly across the country is in the low single digit percentages, then you lose those skills very fast. Pressure points and holds work alright but they're extremely situational and when you're wrestling with someone it all goes out the window like Branis said. I haven't had any defensive tactics training since I got out of the academy 9 years ago, and I've only had a few hours of baton refresher training. I'm a pretty lanky guy myself, which is why my greatest weapon is my words. I've talked myself out of situations that I know for a fact most cops would've just went hands on, and I'm overly patient with people to the point where I've had co-workers accuse me of being afraid to go hands on. Almost everyone can be talked into handcuffs, the exception being completely irrational drunks in my experience, or the really hardened criminals who would rather physically harm you than go to jail - and that's a very tiny percentage of people overall. edit: To clarify the above, there is a time when you have to understand that you've exhausted your options and the only thing you're left with is hands-on. If someone tells me to go gently caress myself and that person is also under arrest, I have no problems talking to him for a few minutes until my backup arrives and then it's end of conversation, bracelet time. The Shep fucked around with this message at 08:43 on May 17, 2015 |
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May 17, 2015 08:35
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you can usually tell who will eventually relent and go peacefully and who's gonna fight if you try to go cuffs on. The problem becomes when you get officers who get mad when people don't immediately comply with everything they say right this second. My opinion is if they aren't gonna be violent i'll talk to them for a little while because at the end of the shift I win and get to sleep in my own bed and they have to sleep in jail, no need to lose my temper and no need to get harsh unnecessarily. The best piece of advice any person can get is to just shut the gently caress up and take the ride. Nobody has ever convinced a cop not to arrest them by arguing once the cop has made up their mind.
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May 17, 2015 10:23
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Thanks for the answers guys. Not saying that martial arts would be the end-all be-all magic trick to everything, they just have been extremely useful for me. I pretty much go the Cmdr. Shepard route, 90% of the people just need some tea and sympathy and little patience carries you an incredibly long way, but I still think that being able to go hands-on effectively gives me the options for talking and listening, because I know I can put the other dude on the ground if necessary or at least get my own rear end to safety if everything fails. Also i know I can be less violent if things go hands on because I know what to do. People often associate martial arts with fancy stuff (like in this thread!) but I just grab the dude and pull or push him the same direction his body his going while in some way supporting his head so he won't hit it in the ground and down he goes. Not once I have used any specific techniques, just went along with the situation. It wouldn't work with a professional football player but for the regular rear end in a top hat it's just fine. DrakeriderCa posted:I should add to clarify that there's a sweet spot for martial arts prowess in policing. The guys who take it really seriously also seem to be really zen and chilled out, but the guys who take it semi-seriously but talk about it all the time are also the guys who are the most dangerous to work with. Same thing with guns. Working with trigger happy people must be a total nightmare. With a spineless geek you can still deal with the situation while he/she retreats behind your back but when the other guy is already going all-out you've got a mess in your hands. I'd rather work alone than work with a lovely person.
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May 17, 2015 10:25
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Thanks for the answers. Anybody got anything to say about Pretrial services/Probation officer jobs? There might be an Ask/Tell floating around but I'm just looking for general impressions as I'm considering pursuing a BA in Criminal Justice as a 2nd major and have no idea what any of these jobs are like.
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May 17, 2015 10:42
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pretrial/probation is like being a cop except you only get to do the lovely parts like court and paperwork and none of the fun stuff. Basically if your life goal is to be a mindless government drone pushing paper to feed the bloated, dead justice system like psyker souls to the golden throne for 30 years it would be the perfect job.
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May 17, 2015 11:11
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OZYMANDICKASS posted:Thanks for the answers. After reading these forums and having a cousin who picked up a BA in CJ, I'm pretty sure a BA in anything else including Art History maybe better... actually, that might be shove.
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May 17, 2015 12:27
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if your goal is to work probation, or if you are getting a 2nd major cause you like wasting money, CJ isn't a bad idea. Its just a terrible degree for law enforcement because the poo poo you learn about doesn't have practical applications to street copping, where any degree is just as useful. It also shoe horns you into a pretty small field of jobs and generic check the box degree jobs. I always tell people two things if they wanna be a cop. Don't get a CJ degree, and don't get into this field cause you watched CSI and want to be a detective. If the idea of pushing a patrol car around for 20 years turns you off, do not waste your time applying cause realistically most people who apply to be cops are too dumb to be detectives. Branis fucked around with this message at 12:46 on May 17, 2015 |
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May 17, 2015 12:44
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TCD posted:After reading these forums and having a cousin who picked up a BA in CJ, I'm pretty sure a BA in anything else including Art History maybe better... actually, that might be shove. Branis posted:if your goal is to work probation, or if you are getting a 2nd major cause you like wasting money, CJ isn't a bad idea. Its just a terrible degree for law enforcement because the poo poo you learn about doesn't have practical applications to street copping, where any degree is just as useful. It also shoe horns you into a pretty small field of jobs and generic check the box degree jobs. The idea of doing any one thing for 20 years turns me off but policing seems like something I could do well and from which I could get some personal satisfaction. I'm not CSI guy. My school has a different program to take their money. I'm getting paid to go to school for five years, so other than one degree's workload taking time away from the other's there isn't really anything to lose. The other half of my double major would be a BFA in Film- there aren't any check the box degree jobs for that. If Veteran status and a Criminal Justice degree can net me a check in the box government job, I think I'll be able to keep frozen pizzas on the table and Rip-Its in the fridge for a few more decades. It's surprising to hear that a criminal justice degree would have no practical application for becoming/being a cop. I take it you're expected to learn (practically) everything between an academy and your first few months on the job? Are there any Justice/Law Enforcement career paths that would benefit from having a Master's Degree? Just looking through the career section of departments' websites in my State, one of them gives additional pay after some kind of probationary period for each level of education beyond an Associates. Is this common?
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May 17, 2015 13:28
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OZYMANDICKASS posted:Rip-Its in the fridge 
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May 17, 2015 13:43
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I have a question. So I see a lot of cars stopped with no passengers, with strange green stickers or the windows cracked open on this highways and boulevards around me, and I was wondering, is this how the police mark dui or other stops where they had to pull out the passengers?
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May 17, 2015 13:49
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OZYMANDICKASS posted:It's surprising to hear that a criminal justice degree would have no practical application for becoming/being a cop. I take it you're expected to learn (practically) everything between an academy and your first few months on the job? Criminal justice as a degree can be fairly academic, you learn the theories and all sorts of other stuff that may be nice to know, but doesn't really help you on a day to day basis as a street cop. It might be nice to know the social disorganization theory and how it affects populations in a city but it won't affect how you do your job as a beat cop. if you had aspirations to politics or to be a command staff type then it could be useful there. Some departments pay more for having degrees its not uncommon right now, although i can't see it going on forever as more and more departments require higher and higher education just as a basic qualification. I could see within 10 years a bachelors degree just being a standard qualification. All that being said police work for all the downsides is really quite enjoyable. Wouldn't hurt to do a couple ride alongs in a city you'd like to work in to see if its something you are interested in. Ryand-Smith posted:I have a question. So I see a lot of cars stopped with no passengers, with strange green stickers or the windows cracked open on this highways and boulevards around me, and I was wondering, is this how the police mark dui or other stops where they had to pull out the passengers? most likely the vehicles are broken down and not a hazard to traffic and whichever agency is in the area marked it as abandoned, they let it sit for 24 hours and then tow it. Branis fucked around with this message at 13:56 on May 17, 2015 |
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May 17, 2015 13:54
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In Texas if you abandon a car on a highway it gets a big orange sticker on the window that is next to impossible to get off and then has a few days before it's towed.
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May 17, 2015 14:07
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OZYMANDICKASS posted:It's surprising to hear that a criminal justice degree would have no practical application for becoming/being a cop. I take it you're expected to learn (practically) everything between an academy and your first few months on the job? I could see a public administration or MBA of some use for command aspirations. Computer or IT as computer forensics and network intrusion is the crime de jour and has outside career potential after you retire or get hurt or don't pass the application process.
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May 17, 2015 14:39
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Evil SpongeBob posted:I could see a public administration or MBA of some use for command aspirations. Computer or IT as computer forensics and network intrusion is the crime de jour and has outside career potential after you retire or get hurt or don't pass the application process. I definitely wish I would have done a comp sci degree instead of criminal justice. But I can't change that now.
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May 17, 2015 15:23
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DrakeriderCa posted:I definitely wish I would have done a comp sci degree instead of criminal justice. But I can't change that now. It's never too late to go back  its too late to go back 
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May 17, 2015 15:28
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ITT ask me about being an old man in college
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May 17, 2015 16:17
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I tried it once before. I worked in law enforcement for a year and was like "I need to finish my degree" so I went back to university and I made it one year. I couldn't handle the people. I was surrounded by idiots. Students who would protest in the quad with signs like "Stop The Violence". Stop what loving violence? Where? Grad students who have never left their mom's basement who will insist on telling you how the world works. 
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May 17, 2015 17:21
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The answer to all degree or major questions is accounting.
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May 17, 2015 20:31
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DrakeriderCa posted:I tried it once before. I worked in law enforcement for a year and was like "I need to finish my degree" so I went back to university and I made it one year. I couldn't handle the people. I was surrounded by idiots. Students who would protest in the quad with signs like "Stop The Violence". Stop what loving violence? Where? Grad students who have never left their mom's basement who will insist on telling you how the world works. When you see people like this, it's amusing to remember that if they actually did get what they want, they wouldn't know what to do with themselves.
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May 17, 2015 21:07
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GreglFaggins posted:The answer to all degree or major questions is accounting. FBI spotted. 
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May 17, 2015 23:05
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DrakeriderCa posted:Grad students who have never left their mom's basement who will insist on telling you how the world works. We're not supposed to talk about D&D in this thread.
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May 17, 2015 23:07
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DrakeriderCa posted:I tried it once before. I worked in law enforcement for a year and was like "I need to finish my degree" so I went back to university and I made it one year. I couldn't handle the people. I was surrounded by idiots. Students who would protest in the quad with signs like "Stop The Violence". Stop what loving violence? Where? Grad students who have never left their mom's basement who will insist on telling you how the world works. I'm in grad school right now and all of my classmates have been pretty chill except for one glaring exception. 
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May 17, 2015 23:38
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Whip Slagcheek posted:I'm in grad school right now and all of my classmates have been pretty chill except for one glaring exception. Listen to this grad school motherfucker telling me how the world works QED 
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May 18, 2015 00:10
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The grad classes full of students straight out of undergrad are worse than the grad classes filled with adults going back for a degree after spending some time in the working world.
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May 18, 2015 00:39
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OZYMANDICKASS posted:Thanks for the answers. Oh I've got lots to say. No ask/tell thread as far as I know. I have debating doing one and might finally get around to it if I get this new job, probably don't want to get super detailed while I'm still here. As far as degree, if you want to work community supervision you should probably get a social work or counseling degree. These jobs are on as spectrum from law enforcement to social work. Some POs make arrests and carry guns, others (like me) carry no weapons and make no arrests. I write reports recommending warrants and the Marshals go do the fun parts. (99% of parole violation arrests are actually really really boring in totally controlled circumstances). However, the trend is getting POs to motivate and counsel offenders, even if it is a more law enforcmenty agency. The job could be really great. For a while I really enjoyed it and thought I was making a difference. I got out of the office a couple days a week. I met very interesting people. Job ended at 5pm, wasn't too stressful, and the pay was decent. I got to punish the wicked and help the downtrodden. Then the bureaucracy of place gradually began grinding me down. The people in charge are more interested in checkboxes than substance. The best example I can give off the top of my head is this: I get rated on whether I ask someone if they're still unemployed and check a box stating I did so every month. I do not get rated on whether I work with someone on getting a job or actually find them a job or get them into school. Caseload is too high to spend an adequate amount of time with any but a handful of offenders. Could be a good field, but you need to find the right place. US Probation officers seem pretty happy. Been trying to get over there but they don't hire that much.
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May 18, 2015 01:31
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fed probation officers are happy because they apparently can choose to never answer their phone or return calls on their clients. Theres a guy in my town on fed probation that fucks up fairly often and his federal PO will never respond to phone or email about this loving guy.
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May 18, 2015 02:03
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Branis posted:fed probation officers are happy because they apparently can choose to never answer their phone or return calls on their clients. Theres a guy in my town on fed probation that fucks up fairly often and his federal PO will never respond to phone or email about this loving guy. this is pretty accurate, father has a neighbor who is a FED PO and I don't think I've ever seen the man go to work. He's always out on his property riding a four wheeler or a go cart. Maybe he works from home or something.
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May 18, 2015 03:36
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Don't get a CJ degree unless the college's program includes academy as part of the curriculum so that you end up with both your degree and a POST cert. I went the CJ only degree route and that was all kinds of dumb because I found myself out of school and looking at spending another $5k to put myself through academy (none of the departments here pay to send people to academy). My brother-in-law on the other hand did a CJ+Cert program at another college and already has 3 offers from departments. Get a degree in IT, Computer Science, or Chemistry if you want something that can be useful outside of policing and give you a leg up in policing (or accounting if you're a dork). Other educational advice, if you were dumb like me and already got a useless degree, take the GRE and find a masters program in IT or IT Management. Most will let you in regardless of what your undergrad is in and are pretty straightforward/easy in terms of learning and is usable outside of CJ. Plus lots of grad programs assume you already have a career and schedule classes in the evenings or online so you can do them whenever which makes them easy to complete. And if you are still young and your desire is to go federal, go to college in DC, it makes everything simpler because they're all right there and are always hosting recruitment events at Georgetown/George Washington/American. I have a buddy in a grad program at George Washington who has been approached by multiple agencies asking if he'd be willing to straight up stop grad school and come work for them already (one of his classmates already took the FBI up on one of these offers). So many poor decision  (I actually recently got a seriously cake IT job at a law firm so now I think I'm going to end up like Reign of Pain, a sad career IT nerd with nowhere else to post).
Scruff McGruff fucked around with this message at 20:43 on May 18, 2015 |
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May 18, 2015 16:00
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Scruff McGruff posted:Don't get a CJ degree unless the college's program includes academy as part of the curriculum so that you end up with both your degree and a POST cert. I went the CJ only degree route and that was all kinds of dumb because I found myself out of school and looking at spending another $5k to put myself through academy (none of the departments here pay to send people to academy). My brother-in-law on the other hand did a CJ+Cert program at another college and already has 3 offers from departments. Get a degree in IT, Computer Science, or Chemistry if you want something that can be useful outside of policing and give you a leg up in policing (or accounting if you're a dork). While I don't have any interest in pursuing other fields of study, I'll be sure to find out about the academy process around here before I get any deeper in criminal justice courses. It sounds like I should know exactly where I want to work prior to graduating. The DC thing sounds like something I might've considered if I'd known from the start that this was what I wanted to do. I'm 32, so not exactly "young", and my post-grad funbux are only usable in the state of Wisconsin.
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May 18, 2015 16:15
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You can still come to DC. You're a veteran pursuing grad school. The big agencies will find you if you're qualified, they host recruiting events all over the place. Just keep an eye on their websites for it and pester the local recruiter. Also since you have mil time you don't necessarily have to worry about hitting the age 37 wall.
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May 18, 2015 16:58
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OZYMANDICKASS posted:While I don't have any interest in pursuing other fields of study, I'll be sure to find out about the academy process around here before I get any deeper in criminal justice courses. It sounds like I should know exactly where I want to work prior to graduating. You might rapidly develop an interest in other careers if you blow your knees out or get hit by a drunk driver and end up with a hosed up back.
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May 18, 2015 19:19
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I have literally never heard a US LEO recommend a CJ degree.
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May 18, 2015 19:25
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DrakeriderCa posted:You might rapidly develop an interest in other careers if you blow your knees out or get hit by a drunk driver and end up with a hosed up back. Or even just to hold you over for the 3-6 months it takes for the hiring process in normal departments, 12-24+ months for the federal agencies.
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May 18, 2015 19:33
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OZYMANDICKASS posted:While I don't have any interest in pursuing other fields of study, I'll be sure to find out about the academy process around here before I get any deeper in criminal justice courses. It sounds like I should know exactly where I want to work prior to graduating. get a degree, get a cop job in wisconsin for 3 years then lateral to minnesota where life and pay is better and not full of scott walker.
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May 18, 2015 19:56
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DrakeriderCa posted:You might rapidly develop an interest in other careers if you blow your knees out or get hit by a drunk driver and end up with a hosed up back. Is it becoming more difficult to receive compensation for work-related disability? I mean I obviously have no idea what kind of toll a decade or two of patrolling takes on your body or what sort of career(s) exists beyond that, so I appreciate the advice. I'm not a guy who's going to pick-up a Comp Sci or Accounting or Biology degree on a whim- especially not as a means to increase my earning potential for a job/career in those fields that I have no intention of ever pursuing. Scruff McGruff posted:Or even just to hold you over for the 3-6 months it takes for the hiring process in normal departments, 12-24+ months for the federal agencies. I'm not married, I don't have kids, and I have no debt. If I wanted to avoid $10-12/hr security work (or $14-16 you-have-a-bachelors-in-something-work), I wouldn't be pursuing a Film BFA. Waiting and living thriftily won't be a problem.
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May 18, 2015 20:14
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OZYMANDICKASS posted:Is it becoming more difficult to receive compensation for work-related disability? I mean I obviously have no idea what kind of toll a decade or two of patrolling takes on your body or what sort of career(s) exists beyond that, so I appreciate the advice. I'm not a guy who's going to pick-up a Comp Sci or Accounting or Biology degree on a whim- especially not as a means to increase my earning potential for a job/career in those fields that I have no intention of ever pursuing. Well, up here I think long term disability is still only 55% of your base salary. So I'd go from $85k/yr to $38k/yr. I'd rather live on that for one year while I recover and line up an alternative career than five years because I need a new education to get another good job.
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May 18, 2015 20:32
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OZYMANDICKASS posted:Is it becoming more difficult to receive compensation for work-related disability? I mean I obviously have no idea what kind of toll a decade or two of patrolling takes on your body or what sort of career(s) exists beyond that, so I appreciate the advice. I'm not a guy who's going to pick-up a Comp Sci or Accounting or Biology degree on a whim- especially not as a means to increase my earning potential for a job/career in those fields that I have no intention of ever pursuing. The toll on your body from years of patrolling is likely to be related to sitting in a car endlessly and eating McDonalds over and over because that's the only thing open at that hour.
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May 19, 2015 01:20
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