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Countblanc posted:Teaching Argent seems like the most miserable experience, and I say this as my scene's designated medium-weight game teacher. Teaching Argent is so much easier than teaching, say, Dungeon Lords. Or any Vlaada game. "You want the most of these secret voter cards. At the end of the game, each voter goes to the player with the most blah--most money, most influence, most cards of this color or that type, so on. To get all this various blah, you take turns sending your wizards to these spaces, and they'll bring you that stuff at the end of the round That is, assuming they're still standing where you left them. These aren't medieval peasants, they're goddamn wizards, and they'll teleport or fireball whoever gets in their way. Here's the different wizard types, here's their special powers. "Here's how a round works: On your turn, you MAY take a Fast Action, then you MUST take a normal action. A normal action can be placing a wizard, taking one of these bell tower cards here, or using any card you have that says Action on it. A Fast Action is using any card or power that says Fast Action on it. "The round ends when someone takes the last Bell Tower card. When that happens, we bring our wizards back, collect our stuff, and set up for next round. Game ends after Round 5, and we'll figure out who gets which voter card. Most voters wins. Got it? Cool, let's muddle through a round real quick." Bam. Hit the ground running. After round one, ask everyone if they wanna reset or keep going. gutterdaughter fucked around with this message at 00:47 on May 19, 2015 |
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May 19, 2015 00:39
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You're probably right, I'm just so used to players who aren't interested in taking a reset round (presumably for time constraints) but then complain when you tell them their masterful plan that they've been plotting for the past hour doesn't actually work because it breaks the rules, and Ardent seems like a game where that would happen quite easily.
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May 19, 2015 00:48
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Countblanc posted:You're probably right, I'm just so used to players who aren't interested in taking a reset round (presumably for time constraints) but then complain when you tell them their masterful plan that they've been plotting for the past hour doesn't actually work because it breaks the rules, and Ardent seems like a game where that would happen quite easily. I don't know how you teach any good, mildly complicated game without that happening.
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May 19, 2015 00:52
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Countblanc posted:You're probably right, I'm just so used to players who aren't interested in taking a reset round (presumably for time constraints) but then complain when you tell them their masterful plan that they've been plotting for the past hour doesn't actually work because it breaks the rules, and Ardent seems like a game where that would happen quite easily. Cool thing is that the game comes with enough nifty cheat sheets that each player can easily and surreptitiously look up what each vote requires, what each resource does, and how to do things. It's remarkably easy to teach once people figure out where information is located and how to read it properly.
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May 19, 2015 00:58
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Then you pray nobody in your group has the slightest hint of AP or descend into the rabbit hole of 4 hour game.
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May 19, 2015 01:00
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They are no poo poo playing and name-dropping King of Tokyo on The Following finale. Now maybe an extra dozen or so people will have heard of it! 
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May 19, 2015 01:29
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Argent suffers from analysis paralysis in the same way that worker-placement games generally suffer from AP; that problem is taking those few seconds longer each turn of each round. It's kind of weird, but I've seen many AP players take proportionally longer on small turns that add up (e.g. worker-placements) over games with lengthy downtime between player turns. Games that always keep a player engaged in the game make AP worse a lot since if someone zones out or gets distracted from the game that person isn't thinking about their turn ahead of time. Worker placement games tend to have quick turns and heavy engagement and thusly both the things that make a slow player even more noticeable. It's especially bad because you could see three of four people in a game almost immediately take their turn and then this long pause of nothing as one player just silently looks at the board state. Games are pretty much more enjoyable when the rhythm between actions is consistent, and even the smallest roadblock of overthinking after a smooth road of decisions can be jarring.
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May 19, 2015 01:30
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Countblanc posted:You're probably right, I'm just so used to players who aren't interested in taking a reset round (presumably for time constraints) but then complain when you tell them their masterful plan that they've been plotting for the past hour doesn't actually work because it breaks the rules, and Ardent seems like a game where that would happen quite easily. Argent's first round is actually pretty simple since you (generally) don't have spells besides your starter one, and you don't have any consumables or other items, so you don't actually need to worry about doing something besides "Place worker," "Use starting spell" or "Get a bell card to accelerate round ending." I mean it's not as simple as playing rock, paper, scissors with a set of cards, obviously.
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May 19, 2015 01:30
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I don't know that I would say that Castles is more thematic. The tiles in Suburbia have a lot of personality in the ways they work. I don't get that from Castles, everything feels just like "Oh, a 3x3 room that gives x points and wants to be next to this kind of room but not that kind of room." I also think they're different enough to own both.
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May 19, 2015 01:48
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Scyther posted:I don't know that I would say that Castles is more thematic. The tiles in Suburbia have a lot of personality in the ways they work. I don't get that from Castles, everything feels just like "Oh, a 3x3 room that gives x points and wants to be next to this kind of room but not that kind of room." If you put the train room next to a bedroom no one will be able to sleep because of the train whistles.
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May 19, 2015 03:51
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Well, I got Dragon lords anniv... and Elysium, hopefully those will hold me over till GenCon. Btw, anything on the radar yet for things to try at Gencon?
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May 19, 2015 04:30
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burger time posted:If you put the train room next to a bedroom no one will be able to sleep because of the train whistles. I live a block from the railroad and hearing the trains go by is soothing.
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May 19, 2015 06:45
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Texibus posted:Well, I got Dragon lords anniv... and Elysium, hopefully those will hold me over till GenCon. Game of Thrones 2nd edition LCG looks pretty great.
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May 19, 2015 06:47
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cenotaph posted:I live a block from the railroad and hearing the trains go by is soothing. I think in this case it's just King Ludwig constantly yelling WOO WOO
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May 19, 2015 06:47
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Bottom Liner posted:Game of Thrones 2nd edition LCG looks pretty great. Currently this is the only major release on my radar. This, and the Five Tribes expansion. Hopefully my new game expenditures at GenCon are less than last year (shouldn't be too hard; I bought anything that looked remotely interesting and ended up packing home like 25 games  )E: Wait, when is Mysterium coming out? It'll be a buy for me if it's available.
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May 19, 2015 06:54
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Gimnbo posted:I think in this case it's just King Ludwig constantly yelling WOO WOO Well then I would probably strangle that fucker.
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May 19, 2015 07:33
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Hey, there's a reason they don't call him the Sane King Ludwig.
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May 19, 2015 09:06
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Jabor posted:Hey, there's a reason they don't call him the Sane King Ludwig. Dude just liked castles and Wagner. He certainly wasn't in the running to get called Ludwig the Great, but it's not his fault the definitions of monarchy were changing around him.
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May 19, 2015 16:40
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Gutter Owl posted:Teaching Argent is so much easier than teaching, say, Dungeon Lords. Or any Vlaada game. That's beautiful  Context is always important, and context is critical for learning. I was recently taught Roll for the Galaxy and it basically went OK take two of these and put them here, now take 1 of these and put it there and two of these and something else now the game ends when we have 12 of these or theres none of those. When you roll your dice you have to put dice on these actions, what really mixed me up at first is that these symbols have to match, the color doesn't actually matter got it? ok then we- basically a long first-person view of the actions and pieces with no context whatever.
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May 19, 2015 16:45
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Most people loving suck at teaching games 
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May 19, 2015 16:53
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S.J. posted:Most people loving suck at teaching games I think I am pretty good at it, and enjoy it, but it really sucks when you are going over a game with a new player, and two players who already know how to play are having their own loud conversation while you are explaining the rules. Teaching games is difficult, but it really is a group effort especially with more complex games.
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May 19, 2015 16:56
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S.J. posted:Most people loving suck at teaching games Which includes 90% of the people writing the rules.
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May 19, 2015 16:58
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It's pretty great. I think I would make sure that people see in that first round: - further levels of a spell being researched - people going to infirmary - how the different markets are replenished and which cards go to vault after use Those can surprise people I think. Otherwise, yeah just bumble though that turn. Really, the bumble through a throwaway turn technique is such an effective way to teach games that it surprises me that the rules writers and video tutorials so rarely include an example turn.
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May 19, 2015 17:00
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The one thing I'd emphasize in Argent's rules is that while Prestige is just one track, it has an effect on ALL OTHER TRACKS since it's used as the tiebreaker. Considering most of the other "stuff" to collect will be in the single digits (and often less than 5 of that stuff will win you the Voter), getting ahead in prestige is actually really loving useful. Of course the other rule of explaining rules is that the more you emphasize something, the more likely someone will claim that you didn't mention that in the explanation at all.
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May 19, 2015 17:05
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This chat is strongly making me consider getting Argent, whereas I'd precisely written it off as overly complicated.GrandpaPants posted:Of course the other rule of explaining rules is that the more you emphasize something, the more likely someone will claim that you didn't mention that in the explanation at all. This drives me nuts! Board gaming needs a standardised Miranda warning where any teacher opens with: "What you do not listen to can and will be used against you"
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May 19, 2015 17:12
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GrandpaPants posted:Of course the other rule of explaining rules is that the more you emphasize something, the more likely someone will claim that you didn't mention that in the explanation at all. My favorite teaching trick when someone's eyes are glazing over is to ask them a question. "So if you played this against me how many points would you score if the board looked like this?" That puts them on the spot and now everyone else has to pay attention to their explanation.
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May 19, 2015 17:15
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al-azad posted:My favorite teaching trick when someone's eyes are glazing over is to ask them a question. "So if you played this against me how many points would you score if the board looked like this?" That puts them on the spot and now everyone else has to pay attention to their explanation. That's pretty good actually. I think the biggest thing when teaching a game, especially more complex ones, is to A) make sure you're teaching with a logical flow, be it a turn order or series of actions or whatever, avoiding jumping around too much and making things feel disjointed and hard to follow, and B) knowing what elements of the rules can be glazed over or skipped altogether initially in favor of core understanding. I mentioned recently my current infatuation with Alchemists and I've been working on finding a good flow to teach it because that one can be a beast to understand. My two points here have been hugely helpful in teaching it so far, and I've only played it a few times myself since my first game when I was taught.
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May 19, 2015 17:24
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Teaching is absolutely a skill, and so is Documentation. It's good to be aware also that not everyone learns the same ways. Some people just don't absorb being lectured to and learn best by bumbling through a practice round & diving right in. That being said, learning a new game will always take work and it's true that some people are certainly more ready and willing to put in that work than others.
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May 19, 2015 17:36
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quote:and two players who already know how to play are having their own loud conversation while you are explaining the rules I'd much rather they're doing that than following along and interjecting with random exceptions and strategy advice. I refuse to teach by committee; if someone starts helping me explain rules, they're the teacher now.
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May 19, 2015 17:36
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I find a truly good reading of the rules starts with the dramatic italicized parts. For new games, we also go around the table with the original rules and a printout copy, so nobody can say "I didn't read that!"
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May 19, 2015 17:37
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S.J. posted:Most people loving suck at teaching games I usually try to use videos online if I can find a good one, with my usual group.
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May 19, 2015 17:42
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I think Concordia is landing solidly in my top ten board games of all time. Maybe it's because I've been scoring fairly high in recent games.
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May 19, 2015 17:58
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Come to think of it, was Magic: the Gathering the first tableau builder?
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May 19, 2015 18:33
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I think Dominoes predates Magic.
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May 19, 2015 18:46
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Bottom Liner posted:Haven't found a decent price for it yet. I emailed them because it seems out of print everywhere and they said something about a reprint when they do their next expansion kickstarter.
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May 19, 2015 19:01
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When I teach games I tend to do it from back to front. Start with how to win or end the game and then explain the parts that get you there, providing context for the stuff just mentioned. So you want to score vp, you get vp from doing this, you do this by taking these sorts of actions, etc until you get to setup. Then a quick run through of a turn and we're off. One of the guys in my group teaches front to back and goes into the minuta of turn order and it drives me nuts. Then he'll gloss over the end and how to win. I have to be the rear end in a top hat who interrupts to ask 'how do I win?' in order to figure out anything. I had a really lovely first time with Mage Knight because I apparently missed the part where the game ends based on the tile stack and he taught it that way.
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May 19, 2015 19:27
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I'm stuck in the Galaxy Trucker campaign in the app: I'm at the planet of the brown aliens and they've got an exclamation point for the quest, but they won't say anything! I'm pretty sure I've done the businessman's quest and I've explored all the other options across the map, including getting the Level 3 licence. Do I need to do something else to get the brown aliens to talk to me?.
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May 19, 2015 19:32
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The Supreme Court posted:I'm stuck in the Galaxy Trucker campaign in the app: I'm at the planet of the brown aliens and they've got an exclamation point for the quest, but they won't say anything! I'm pretty sure I've done the businessman's quest and I've explored all the other options across the map, including getting the Level 3 licence. Do I need to do something else to get the brown aliens to talk to me?. You got to talk to the businessman again and he'll translate for you.
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May 19, 2015 19:41
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After mentioning an abortive attempt at Robinson Crusoe previously, I got a real chance to play it. Really unimpressed. There were a crazy amount of moving parts for what felt like very basic decision making, but that didn't matter because I got quarterbacked anyway! The weird thing is, the guy who ran the game always asks me to quarterback him in co-op games that I own. Like if we're playing Ghost Stories or Eldritch Horror he flat out says a few options available to him, looks directly at me and says "so what should I do?" to which I respond "do whatever you want, it's your decision" because he suffers from AP and it's interminable and this thread has made me wary of quarterbacking. But in Crusoe on the first 4 or 5 turns when I said what actions I'd like to take he'd just kinda go "well we're still gonna need X and I don't think we really need to build Y right now" until I just said "so what should I do?" and then do whatever he said. When the game reached its damp squib of an ending it was packed up and not really discussed further. Probably should have fought my corner and done whatever actions I wanted but the whole experience was so strange I rolled with it. Just a bland, frustrating experience - and at least some of it was due to the game.
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May 19, 2015 20:22
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The Supreme Court posted:I'm stuck in the Galaxy Trucker campaign in the app: I'm at the planet of the brown aliens. And I'm buying that now. I didn't realize it had special single player content - sounds awesome.
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May 19, 2015 20:23
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