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I can't decide between tablet and auto battle, or emulator and fast forward.
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May 21, 2015 08:54
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KataraniSword posted:I totally forgot the Defender was a thing, to be honest. The Assassin's Dagger has 82 Attack. It uses the Knives damage formula, which is like Swords but it contains a ((Level * Agility) / 128) that is promptly discards the second byte, so it functions as an 82 Attack sword that sometimes has an extra +1 M, uses a slightly different random variance (Attack ~ Attack + 3 instead of Attack ~ Attack + (Attack / 8)), and can inflict Death. Damage wise, it's inferior to the Enhancer. Against the Rune Blade, it's still pretty bad. 82 Attack versus 70 Attack and quartered Defense. Against any enemy with 16 or more Defense, the Rune Edge's average damage wins out before you even count in the extra points from Magic. Why? Since damage is, put simply, Attack minus Defense times Multiplier, subtracting from Defense is basically the same as adding to attack (although the 50%-150% variance with Rune weapons and Axes makes this not really true). And, since I should be working on homework, let's look at the above and see where Flare outdamages Holy. Holy has 241 Attack. Flare has 251, and cuts Magic Defense to 1/32 of the target's base value. Random variance means Holy can vary from 241~271 Attack, and Flare can vary from 251~258. No, you're not crazy. Holy's variance is the standard Magic Attack formula's, Attack~Attack + Attack/8. Flare's is Attack~Attack/32. 'kay, so already Flare's looking bad. Let's look at sample Magic Defenses of post Fork Tower bosses (because who cares if a Nut Eater is dealt more or less damage by Flare or Holy, it's dead either way. Leviathan has 15 Magic Defense. Bahamut has 20. Apanda has 10. The Alte Roite minibosses have 60 Halicarnassus has 20. Azulmagia has 70. Catastrophe has 20. Exdeath has 25. Neo Exdeath has 20. Omega has 150. Shinryu has 50. So we have 10, 15, 20, 25, and then some outliers at 50, 60, 70, and 150. Given that Flare cuts Magic Defense, let's start from the top down. The moment Holy starts winning, there's no point in going on further. Of course, some of these have innate Shell. We'll ignore that First, let's look at boosted Holy. All of these will come from Summoner Lenna, or White/Black Mage with !Summon 6, if you must. There's a few pieces of equipment that will boost her Magic even further past 61, but neither of these qualities are unique to Flare or Holy, so screw that. Both use ((Level * Magic)/256) + 4 as a multiplier, so we'll again assume level 38. It provides a nice multiplier of 13 to work with. Against Omega (I'm assuming you reflect it back on to him, of course. I'm also assuming his starting Shell is Dispelled), Holy does (241~271 - 150) * 13 = 1183~1573. Flare would do (251~258 - 4) * 13 for 3211~3302. So Flare wins there. Except I said boosted Holy. That's actually an Attack of 361~406, which makes for a damage of 4693~5278. Yes, you have that right. Boosting is +50% to Attack. At normal numbers, this is basically indistinguishable from +50% damage, but here we see the truth. Just for posterity's sake I'll check unboosted Holy and Flare against the only other things you'd care about, Shinryu and Exdeath. Holy pulls out 2483~2873 against Shinryu, where Flare gets 3250~3341. Exdeath sees a Holy of 2808~3198 and a Flare of 3263~3354. So, really similar. I guess if you sold the Sage Staff and don't have any other ways to boost Holy but have 99 Elixirs for the MP cost then Flare's technically better than Holy. Unfortunately, the one place Flare really shines, against Omega, is pointless, since he's weak to Lightning so you can just sling Reflected Thundagas at him for even more than either would do, never mind boosting. Flare has about as much point in Final Fantasy V as the Speed and Mute spells.
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May 21, 2015 09:41
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How do the Rune Blade/Enhancer compare to the Assassin's Dagger, damage-wise? I know both the Brave Blade and Chicken Knife beat them out in optimal settings, but I don't know how the lower tier weapons compare.
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Trasson posted:Flare has about as much point in Final Fantasy V as the Speed and Mute spells. What about Flare vs. boosted -aga? I know the described situation was in general but I'm curious in terms of Fiesta if there's ever a time to bother with Flare.
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May 21, 2015 09:55
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Firaga/Blizzaga/Thundaga has 185 power. With an elemental boost that goes up to 277. So yes they're better then Flare.
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May 21, 2015 09:59
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Trasson posted:
Except you forgot to subtract Omega's magic defense from your boosted holy, which drops it to 2743-3328. You also wouldn't use holy vs either bonus boss because they absorb it. You'd also crack out flare several times in the Sealed Temple if you're into that kind of thing. dis astranagant fucked around with this message at 10:19 on May 21, 2015 |
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May 21, 2015 10:10
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Minrad posted:I can't decide between tablet and auto battle, or emulator and fast forward. Fast-forward always wins. You can do so much more so much faster, like waiting out Omega, grinding Chicken Knife escapes, or falling into the speed trap.
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May 21, 2015 10:14
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dis astranagant posted:Except you forgot to subtract Omega's magic defense from your boosted holy, which drops it to 2743-3328. You also wouldn't use holy vs either bonus boss because they absorb it. You'd also crack out flare several times in the Sealed Temple if you're into that kind of thing. see kids, this is why you don't post about Final Fantasy formulas when you're supposed to be doing homework for a pair of five week intensive summer college classes.
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May 21, 2015 10:21
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Anything with over 23 magic defense takes more damage from flare than boosted -agas, though that's just Treedeath and Shinryuu by that point. And basically the entire Sealed Temple.
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May 21, 2015 10:24
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Flare's good if you have a bad class like say Monk that can't equip Rods and you want to have them be doing something
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May 21, 2015 14:55
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It's been a while, and I'm not at home so I can't check right now, but isn't Flare not that bad... as sword magic? Or does the massive bonus on the third tier elemental blades just stomp all over it too?
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May 21, 2015 21:09
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Prism posted:It's been a while, and I'm not at home so I can't check right now, but isn't Flare not that bad... as sword magic? IIRC, you're better off using the -agas or holy against enemies that have a weakness. But if you're up against something strong without those weaknesses it's a good choice.
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May 21, 2015 21:21
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Prism posted:It's been a while, and I'm not at home so I can't check right now, but isn't Flare not that bad... as sword magic? Yeah, Flare Blade is incredible. +100 Attack and quartered Defense (like an Axe). That said, ultrafilter's right in that if the target has an elemental (fire/ice/lightning/holy/poison) weakness, you want to hit that instead, but Flare Spellblade is an all-purpose rear end-kicking tool.
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May 21, 2015 21:31
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I'm finally going to finish this year! In it to win it! Can't wait! So I'm not as intimately familiar with FF5's mechanics as most. I know enough to get by, but for a normal run, which job from each crystal would be considered the "worst" to get? Excluding berserker because obviously berserker is the best. All hail the berserker.
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May 22, 2015 01:15
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ComposerGuy posted:I'm finally going to finish this year! In it to win it! Can't wait! WORST JORBS: Wind: Monk. Knight's burly, the Mages have great utility, and Thief can steal c'mon dude that's mega. Water: Red Mage, under the condition that you don't get a White or Black Mage, because then Doublecast has much strongth. ...Actually, Red Mage anyway, all the other classes are good Fire: Geomancer no question moving on Earth: Either Dragoon or Dancer. Dancer's much faster, is ULTRA GROOVIN, and can equip Ribbons, but are frail. Dragoon is slow and vaguely tanky, but Jump, while awful for tanking, is decently powerful, and they're sturdier than Dancer by a long shot. Either one of them is significantly better than Geomancer.
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May 22, 2015 01:18
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ComposerGuy posted:I'm finally going to finish this year! In it to win it! Can't wait! Monk is most likely worst for wind crystal. While they start off strong, that will start to dip off in world two and get pretty bad in world three. Red Mage is pretty bad with no support to make DualCast great. They get to crack rods and play some support so not as bad as monks. Geomancer is probably worst of the fire crystal jobs. They just don't deal a lot of damage. Unless you're in a bog, then they're great. Dragoon I'd say of the earth jobs. Though, none of the earth jobs are that bad, some are just better than others.
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May 22, 2015 01:24
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A lot of what the bad jobs have in common is that they scale really poorly into the mid and endgame; Monk and Red Mage are actually great in World 1. I don't really dread rolling either until I get my 2nd-4th jobs and end up with nothing useful to compensate for their endgame damage problems. And in defense of Dragoon because Dancer is my personal least favorite job to roll: Jump is only a bad tank ability if you focus on a tank's responsibility to take hits on behalf of the rest of the party. It's an amazing tank ability if you focus on a tank's ability to survive anything. There's a pretty cool fight in the postgame stuff in FF4A where Kain has to solo Bahamut and the trick is to Jump over and over before he casts Megaflare; I also had this experience in FFT a couple times where timing Jumps was the solution to a difficult battle.
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May 22, 2015 01:29
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Dragoon's super boring, Dancer is at least fun and you can put Bartz into it.
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May 22, 2015 01:31
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IMO Dragoon's issue is not that it's bad (it's not, really) so much as it doesn't give much to other classes, and doesn't use anything from other classes that other burly guys like Knights and Samurai don't.
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May 22, 2015 01:33
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Dragoons aren't bad, but they don't synergise well with most other classes and there aren't that many good spears in the game. If you time it right, you can do some fun stuff with Jump though. Edit: Yeah, what Prism said.
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May 22, 2015 01:34
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During my current non-variant run of FFV, heinous abuse of Jump was what I used to get past Titan.
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May 22, 2015 01:35
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Dragoon is not bad, just kinda bland and lacks synergy with most teams. Dancer on the other hand is more flashy, but is effectively a glass cannon that's not always loaded. Which one is worse really comes down whether you want someone more defensive and consistent or someone who's more chaotic and will "swing for the fences" so to speak.
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May 22, 2015 01:37
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The other problem with Dragoon is that they don't benefit from having most other fighty abilities passed to them. Really the only things that help are dualwield and rapid fire.
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May 22, 2015 01:39
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Dragoons get a legendary weapon that nobody else will want, I guess. Between Jump ignoring row and heavy armor use in a game where heavy armor is good armor, Dragoons will never loving die ever. They also don't really do anything in a fiesta. They're by far the most self-sustaining unit, but running a Dragoon is almost like having one character permanently in a Natural run, since your Dragoon isn't going to ever want to do anything but Jump. Forever. As everyone else said, they're not bad, they're boring. They're basically the exact opposite of Dancer, who is a neat little gimmick class and can tear off faces approximately 25% of the time only to get brutally murdered the other 75%. I'd rather sacrifice my Earth Crystal pull for another roll of a Wind/Water Crystal job, though, if we're being honest. All of the good mages are frontloaded, leaving the second half of the jobs with Geomancer (/shudder) and Chemist. I'm definitely thinking about pulling a Chaos run this year, if it's what speculation has implied.
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May 22, 2015 02:00
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ComposerGuy posted:I'm finally going to finish this year! In it to win it! Can't wait! The "worst" classes varies because team synergy matters a lot. For example, Monk and Thief are easily the bottom tier choices for the Wind Crystal. However, if you get a Time Mage, Samurai, or Chemist, you can give your Monk Haste, which enables them to skip Running Shoes and run Kaiser Knuckles and thus have real offense (endgame, it puts them up to about Excalibur level of power, except with the chance to crit and Counter). In such a team, Monk is way stronger than Thief. So, we need not only a team of weak members, but a team that offers no synergy. First, Thief. Why Thief and not Monk as the above? Monk hands over Barehanded, which is not only a decent enough weapon for the early to midgame, it also boosts Strength. If a character doesn't otherwise need their secondary slot but they attack, Barehanded will see them doing real damage. HP+30% is always useful. Thief, on the other hand, can !Mug with a Chicken Knife and steal basically nothing of value. Chicken Knife is nice, but being able to use it something almost all classes can do anyway. While many of them run into the 25% Flee chance, that doesn't really make the Thief that special, as even 75% Chicken Knife damage is worthwhile. The only unique steals are the Genji Helm and Genji Gloves, as anything after that point can be Thief Knifed, and it's impossible to get a normal Fiesta team without the ability to use that. Thief gives a party the ability to have Thief level Agility, which is absolute crap compared to HP+30% or Monk level Strength with Barehanded. "But what about the Genji Helm and Genji Gloves?" you say. They're useless without a heavy armor user, and any bad team will not have one of those, because you could be a class with no abilities at all and no weapons but still be good because of the ability to use the Aegis Shield. So, Water Crystal. Berserker's the canon choice, but Berserkers a) don't start being real liabilities in any but a couple of fights until you get to two or three, and b) give Equip Axes, which is an excellent Equip ability for later in the game. Only the sword users don't appreciate it, and anything with a real Magic stat will do wonders with the Rune Axe. They also make mincemeat of a few bosses (Dragon Pod, Gilgamesh 2, Mellusion, No, the choice is Red Mage. As long as you don't have another magic user, Red Mage is pretty lackluster, topping out at !Dualcast-ing level 2 spells. That said, it can still crack rods and equip staves, so it's got access to Life, Dispel, Bio, level three spells, and Holy. When that's the worst you can do, that's pretty drat awesome. Fire Crystal is Geomancer, and I shan't spend more words on why. Earth Crystal is Dancer. Dragoon's actually a worse class, but !Jump, !Equip Spears, and !Lancet would actually all play well with the team, giving them offense, defense, or both in one ability. Also, then we'd have a heavy armor user to justify our Thief a little, and we can't have that. No, it's gotta be Dancer. Even then, things aren't awful. Sword Dance patches over the Thief and Geomancer's rough spots amazingly, or Equip Ribbons laughs off the second most dangerous attack of Neo Exdeath. Unfortunately, all of these require ability slots, and the Red Mage has it filled. You even get the Man Eater to solve the "only two good knives" problem.
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May 22, 2015 02:01
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Dragoon is considerably improved by having a Thief on your team, though. There are a bunch of great spears you can steal long before they're otherwise available. Without a thief, the Dragoon's damage output is really disappointing.
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May 22, 2015 02:03
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Thief has built in chicken knife abuse and is thus better than a monk can ever dream of being by default. The only way a monk is topping that is with chemist or bard assistance (and those guys are good enough on their own that they don't even really need to help the monk out). There's also a LOT of good steals in world 2 that can give you an extra leg up, plus hi potions in world 1.
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May 22, 2015 02:10
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Thiefs are superior to Monks simply because they get the Flee ability. Never having to worry about random encounters is nice, especially once you reach the third world.
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May 22, 2015 02:10
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death sickles alone make berserker a good class
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May 22, 2015 02:11
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Yeah, I'm going to agree with consensus that Thief is better than Monk. Maybe not in worlds 1/2 (and definitely not without a supporting cast), but in the Void? I'd rather have a Thief than a Monk, any day, any time, any comp.
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May 22, 2015 02:12
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There's really no awful combination under the standard Fiesta rules. There are some that require a bit more patience or grinding than others, but that's really the worst you can say.
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May 22, 2015 02:13
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i look forward to chaos mode's inevitable dragoon/monk/geomancer/thief team
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May 22, 2015 02:15
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ultrafilter posted:There's really no awful combination under the standard Fiesta rules. There are some that require a bit more patience or grinding than others, but that's really the worst you can say. Knight/3xZerk is probably the worst just due to lack of healing/control. Or the dreaded Classic Run 4xThief/4xMonk. Then again, those are nonstandard pulls (zerkrisk and classic respectively) so 
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May 22, 2015 02:17
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Hedera Helix did a run last year with four White Mages. I can't think of anything more tedious until you get access to Holy.
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May 22, 2015 02:21
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Samuel Clemens posted:Thiefs are superior to Monks simply because they get the Flee ability. Never having to worry about random encounters is nice, especially once you reach the third world. They also give you immunity to surprise attacks, which you can't get from any other class. This cannot be understated.
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May 22, 2015 02:36
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Out of curiosity (since I haven't figured it out) what are the 750 and No 750 variants?
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May 22, 2015 03:05
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Sordas Volantyr posted:Out of curiosity (since I haven't figured it out) what are the 750 and No 750 variants? 750 break rods every day. Basically you either get nothing but rod users (750) or nothing but non-rod users (No 750) e: Corrected. Blastinus fucked around with this message at 03:12 on May 22, 2015 |
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May 22, 2015 03:08
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Sordas Volantyr posted:Out of curiosity (since I haven't figured it out) what are the 750 and No 750 variants? It has to do with rod-breaking, the 750 coming from the price of a Flame/Ice/Thunder Rod. IIRC 750 is "only jobs that can break rods", and no750 is "only jobs that can't". e:fb, except it's rods, not staves
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May 22, 2015 03:09
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KataraniSword posted:Knight/3xZerk is probably the worst just due to lack of healing/control. Or the dreaded Classic Run 4xThief/4xMonk. Honestly, Knight/3xZerk isn't that bad. 3 two-handed Zerkers wreck poo poo pretty hard, and you have a well armored Hi-Potion/Elixir bot to boot. Aside from a couple of annoying bosses it's not that hard of a run up until NED, which requires some extra planning and some luck (which is arguably more fun than running a high-damage or high buffing team).
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May 22, 2015 03:11
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It's not just rod users, it's just magical or close-enough-to-magical classes in general. 750: White Mage, Black Mage, Blue Mage, Time Mage, Summoner, Red Mage, Geomancer, Bard, Chemist, Dancer. No750: everything else (excluding freelancer/mime/gba-exclusive classes)
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May 22, 2015 03:16
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Poque posted:It's not just rod users, it's just magical or close-enough-to-magical classes in general. If I recall, RK only added Geomancer/Bard/Chemist/Dancer because all of the rod classes were front-loaded and also because that way there were at least two jobs from each crystal for either run-type. Do be aware, though, if you're running No750 Standard, you have approximately a 50% chance (as in, exactly a 50% chance) of rolling Berserker. That's not as bad as advertised, but when your other option is Mystic Knight...
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May 22, 2015 03:33
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