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Battle of South Moundtop [Gustave, Part 1] (1305) The armies of fake Gustave and Count David of Jade clash. 1305 Battle of South Moundtop David, Count of Jade, commands the united armies of the feudal lords and defeats fake Gustave. 1305 Hahn Nova Treaty The very first worldwide peace treaty.  It's time.  (Your Majesty)  There's originally one blue unit, then it becomes two mid-sentence, and then there's three at the start of the next line. Meanwhile, the various lords sign a provisional treaty and form an allied army, with the new Count of Jade, David, as the central figure.  They approach Hahn Nova from the north, south, and west.  Gustave's army confronts the western army, the primary force, while the troops under Bolse's command intercept the relatively weaker northern army.   Gustave's strategy goes as planned up to this point.  You might say that the Water Lord... got caught up in the flow. Upon Bolse's return, Gustave makes a plan to use his entire army to strike at the center of the alliance, the western army under the command of David.  But Bolse's army does not return from the pursuit, and the southern army draws close to Hahn Nova first.  In summer 1305, the most renowned historical event, the Battle of South Moundtop, begins. Notice "most renowned event" and the lack of time delimiter. This isn't the most renowned historical event within this period or even the most famous battle--this is the most renowned historical event ever, even a full thousand years after it occured.  (Erlking)   Welcome to the Battle of South Moundtop. The Count of Jade, David, leads the alliance army: five generic soldiers, two archers, and one sixth generic soldier unit (David) whose loss is Game Over. Facing David is four Edelritter units (from left, Sargon, Fire Lord; Moi, Stone Lord; Torres, Beast Lord; and Isis, Tone Lord) composed of Rangers, one generic Gustave's Army unit (Water Lord Bolse is chasing the north army, and who knows where Tree Lord Mika is), two Steel Soldier units, and Gustave's Steel Soldier unit. let's just agree to make no bad jokes about the Tone Lord's name, okay? You have no special units, unless you count the archers. The enemy has nothing BUT special units--even the generic unit is a Ranger, giving them better weapons and armor. Additionally, you have one extra lose condition: the bottom-central two-row three-column area marked by the red icon, with David standing at center-top, will trigger a Game Over should any enemy step inside. Both sides have a comically high number of Reserves considering the turn count restriction, so each living unit gets 1 unit back every turn. There are two points of mercy here. First, Fake Gustave's troops won't move until you either a) place a unit within two squares of them or b) reach enemy phase on turn 4. Second, despite the special units, there are no named characters on either side--Sargon's unit is four Rangers and Fake Gustave's unit is four Steel Soldiers, and the Flame, Stone, Beast, and Tone Lords won't be hulking out on us. This is good, because frankly Rangers are bad enough. Note the win condition, and note the restriction on Fake Gustave. One day is one turn. Count and you'll notice that there are exactly six squares from Fake Gustave to Headquarters. Steel Soldiers are the next-best thing to invincible. The intended win condition, then, is for you to spend the first three days fighting the Edelritter, place three units directly in front of them on turn 4, and stage a five-turn fighting retreat (Day 4, Day 5, Day 6, Day 7, Day 8). This effectively requires you to have at least three units three squares away from Gustave's three Steel Soldiers on Day 3 so that you can make the move on turn 4. If you do this, then by the end of Day 8, they'll push you back to your headquarters, but you'll reach Day 9 before they get there. Then you win! (Look back at the Knights South Moundtop and you'll see that the dialogue even clearly references this. It's very clearly what they intended you to do.) Sounds easy, right? Below is a single run of the battle from a person who's pretty good at this game.   There's no particular advantage to first strike here, so the goal is to ensure that Archers support units at all times. Any of the eight squares around an Archer will count for the purpose of the start-of-battle 30 damage arrow assist.  The generic soldier seems to be trying to sneak into the camp, because he's an rear end in a top hat. I'm going to have to divert a unit to stopping him, but that'll make him useless for the fighting retreat and dealing with the Edelritter. Anyway, Sargon's attacking.  (Field of Battle I) I have no idea why the "low stakes" battle theme is playing when the virtual cutscene of last time had Feldschlacht IV. We should have Bessessenheit or something playing here instead. gently caress it, we're fighting Sargon anyway, we need a variant of Feldschlacht IV. By executive decision, I'm changing the soundtrack. Much better. Now where were we?  Oh, right, these fuckers. Their move list is Double Slash, Cross Slash, Smash, Flame Naga, Magmaxplosion, and Brushfire. Smash will kill whoever it hits ~80% of the time and is their most frequent attack. Flame Naga will almost always kill anyone it hits, and can hit multiple units if they're close together. (See the allied unit and the one below him? One Flame Naga could kill both.) Magmaxplosion is pretty much the same, but a bit weaker, so it probably won't kill. Brushfire will finish off anyone that's hit by anything else, and will probably hit 3-4 of your units. Compared to the above, Double Slash and Cross Slash are merciful reprieves. Remember ideal weapon ranges. Swords are short, so are spells, spears are long-range. You want to target enemies far away, because any enemy that starts close to your units will likely use Smash and kill someone. Additionally, remember that Lawnmower is fast and does about 60-100 damage and can stun, while Flame Spear is slow but does about 90-120. The higher defenses of the Rangers generally knock Lawnmower down to 50-80 but don't seem to affect Flame Spear too much. I target the two on the left with Lawnmower, trying to maximize the distance between my units and the enemy.    They also know Deflect, because of course they know Deflect. Two enemies down, two allied units down, so it goes to decision. Both enemy survivors took 30 damage from arrows, one surviving unit took 50 damage from Double Slash, so I did more damage and Sargon retreats. Which is awful, because I'm still down units--this just means that he'll be out of Archer range when I try to finish him off next turn. Worst of both worlds!    Tactical error! I let a unit be within range of two Edelritters. They're dead as doornails now.  Good luck lets both units survive, thanks to a minor miracle--two shield blocks. They have Bucklers, the very worst kind of shield. You don't usually get that freakishly lucky.   Two Lawnmowers, two kills... And then this one bastard Deflects twice in a row. He kills one unit, but you get one back every turn, so it's four surviving units on my side versus three on his. And then he retreats into Fake Gustave's aggro range, which will effectively Game Over you if entered before turn 4, rendering him completely immune to retaliation next turn. Due to reinforcements, this means he'll be back up to full strength by the time he attacks again.   The miracle survivors of last turn, step in, three versus four, and this one soldier blocks a Cross Slash and Smash. He's the same unit that did the blocking last time.   But the luck is on all sides of the battlefield! Two Deflects!  We're up to about six by this point, and the enemy gets a fatal Smash off immediately afterward. Moi ALSO retreats into Fake Gustave's range!   I'm forced to fight this battle without Archer support, so I take a risk: three units Lawnmower, but one of them that none of the enemy is facing (remember, enemy facing tends to hint towards targeting) uses Flame Spear. That's the surest shot at killing two of them, and it pays off just as planned.    Isis gets off lethal Smashes on THREE of my four units before I can even attack. Lawnmower does hit and kill with that last unit, at least. I'd like to remind you that one Flame Naga instead of a Smash and odds are that that would have been a complete rout.    Still, I had a feeling I'd lose that battle, so I had a second unit ready to attack. I'd have preferered lower casualties, but due to retreats, losing that battle was better for the strategy than winning it. I knock Isis down to one unit and only lose one in retaliation.  I'm in an okay position--no Edelritters defeated yet, but I haven't lost any units and I'm well-positioned to initiate the blocking on Fake Gustave when turn 4 comes around.  Generic soldier fight! I blocked him off last turn. No archer support, but compared to the Rangers, this is easy pickings.   I mean, look at that. I've seen stronger Smashes than 115 and that was a combo. Still, due to lovely luck, two of mine go down and none of theirs. It'll be three-versus-four next round.  Sargon abuses Gustave's killrange to recover with impunity because gently caress this fight (this makes three times the enemy's done this), and Moi attacks the three-unit.    oh gently caress you too  Isis has just two units against four and I have Archer support, so that shoe's finally on the other foot!   Contrary to expectations, saying this does not incite the game to destroy me. Torres does destroy a weakened two-person unit, though. My turn.  I'm actually hoping to retreat in this fight, or that Torres will be somehow knocked into Fake Gustave's spaces by random bullshit, because otherwise he's going to be knocked behind my lines. Maybe something nice will happen!  Hah. Hah. Hah. Yeah, like that was likely. So now I have several options and basically all of them are poo poo, because Torres needs to be dealt with NOW or he'll very likely just run two spaces south and Game Over me. In particular, David needs to stay right the gently caress where he is, both to block Fake Gustave and to fight Sargon. I end up sending the unit in the lower left two spaces to the right, putting him in front of Torres. He won't have archer support, but 3-vs-2 still isn't too bad, if you ignore the fact that Smash + Flame Naga will kill me and I'm overdue for that particular spell to show up.    And then I just get flat-out Game Overed. Moi's units furthest back get fatal Smashes off at the very beginning of the round, completely ignoring the rules on Sword speeds, and he follows this up with a Magmaxplosion. This would be bad enough--my left front has collapsed, so I can't block the left Steel Soldier, which means they'll hit my headquarters on turn 8. That isn't the real problem, though.   No, the problem is that somehow the retreat pushes my unit into Fake Gustave's aggro range. (Moi attacked from the right and retreats usually follow the angle the unit is attacked from; I have no idea why an attack from the right lead to a retreat up-right.) It's turn 3. While Moi can probably finish off the unit (and probably will), Fake Gustave moves at the start of every turn, so all three of them are activated now. You have absolutely no margin to activate them early. This is unrecoverable. The worst part of this? I made no real tactical errors--I shouldn't had left the enemy attack the same unit twice on turn 1, no, but every other move was simple. Additionally, consider that I know the real win condition here (the "five-day fighting retreat"), know more about the rules behind action speeds than 90% of players (so I can micromanage fights better than most), and I made sure to use Archers at every opportunity. There was no decision I can point to and say, "This is what I did wrong, and if I did something else, I would have won." No, I just got unlucky. Enemy Deflects went off way, WAY too often in the early rounds, enemies moved too fast, Smashes did too much damage, enemies kept retreating into Fake Gustave's Death Zone to recover with impunity. None of these are things I can really control. I just have to do this over again and not get unlucky this time. Let's look at my second attempt.  Essentially the same start. I send my second left-front unit where it can't be attacked by both Sargon and Moi, and I have my generic block off the enemy generic so that it can't advance as far towards Headquarters, but the rest is essentially the same.    This time, I very nearly wipe out Sargon on the very first turn and no one dies--I even have a Smash miss outright.  Torres still gets a deflect off, and the last Lawnmower doesn't do enough damage to bring him down to 3 units, but again, no one dies--I even have a Smash do 99 damage out of a maximum of 100. He still retreats into Fake Gustave's range, but's manageable.  Instead, what fucks me over this time is that Isis went after this unit. Which is a problem, because one generic against an Edelritter without archer support is a massacre even without getting into the other generic unit they have, and the camp infiltration is still a lose condition. Even if I pull back an Archer to help, odds are good that the one soldier down there can't handle it, and losing an archer up top very likely means losing the top front. Reset. Third attempt!  I want to make sure to attract Isis and I don't want Torres retreating into Fake Gustave's space. I adjust accordingly.   Sargon goes well again, taking down three with a loss of 1. (A Smash-Cross Slash Combo is actually lucky--Smash kills very often anyway, so wasting a second enemy turn here is great.)  When Isis attacks, I learn that the generic is actually an Archer, despite using Light Spears. Only non-Jade Archer ever, actually! Weird. This is my bad, though--the unit does say "Archer" if you examine them on the map. I'm pretty sure that the generic unit is marked as Archer JUST to make this opening a poor move for the player, because it'll otherwise never be relevant--the enemy Archer tends to stay too far back from the frontline. The enemy Brushfire spell even does 60-80 damage, so Isis has a fair chance of just instantly wiping any unit that takes enemy arrow fire. That is a ridiculously specific bit of designer dickery. Anyway, this gets the team Isis attacked wiped out--not by Brushfire, just lots of Smashes and Cross Slashes that do more than 70 damage. Restart!  First turn disaster against Sargon. The left front lacks enough units that it can afford to lose three and kill zero first round, so I restart. The next one goes exactly as bad in exactly the same way, marking my fifth reset.  At this point, I say, "gently caress it, this is gambling anyway, taking those first-turn arrows against Isis doesn't actually lower my odds much more" and start doing this first turn.  Sargon goes well, while Moi breaks right. I initially find this incredibly annoying, but I soon realize that this is great--it means that I can move the other Archer off and dedicate the leftmost troop to keeping Sargon busy. The left doesn't need to win (and was incredibly unlikely to), but I need Sargon occupied so I can get units into the right places turn 3 in preparation for turn 4. Despite the enemy archer support, I trade 2-2 with Isis. Torres is in the middle of my formation, which is good--I should have a bit more control over his retreating, so I can spend more time attacking him.   I attack Torres from the left, and this time retreating cooperates and he moves up-right. Between Successive Battle reducing his units' starting HP to 88 and Archer fire taking off 30 more, even a 66-damage Lawnmower is able to drop his final unit for the first Edelritter kill.  This is an incredibly good position. Torres is dead, and while Moi's first-turn move into the Death Zone does create a possible do-or-die on turn 4 (I'll need to attack him and win if he's in one of the spaces in front of the Steel Soldiers, because otherwise I can't block their advance), it's more important that I prioritize getting people into blocking positions. Isis is a problem, especially with that Archer supporting, but in theory I don't even need to kill her--if she's hassling me while the Steels are advancing, that's less of a problem than it seems, because they move before anyone else. If people are in position turn 3 and then turn 4, I win; the rest is details.  Sargon wins this round with the left, which is great--it gives me the option of having the left Archer break off to offer support and try to kill off Sargon this round, if everything else goes well.  Moi retreats, the Archer attacks my bottom-right unit first and retreats down and away, and I get the drat big lucky break of the run:   In a 4v4, I manage to wipe out Isis entirely. This wasn't necessary--as I said, so long as I kept her busy while characters blocked the Steels, I would win the map--but it makes things a hell of a lot easier, and it was incredibly unlikely. Random positions mean that at least one enemy Ranger will generally go before you, and if they use Smash or Flame Naga strong odds are that you're down one or more attacking units. Against the higher defense of the Rangers, it's incredibly unlikely that all four attacks will do in the 70+ range you require--it's essentially a 50/50 each time. And none of them can Deflect, which they seem to do roughly, oh, 10% of the time? Even assuming that you aim properly to make the speed situation less random, I'd handwave and say this was about a one-in-one-hundred situation. This is about when I realize this is probably my winning run.  The end of turn 3. Archers have lower defenses and no shields, so I don't want them blocking the Steels if I can avoid it--Rush can do LP damage, and every soldier has just 1 LP. Anything to increase my odds. Sargon may attack the top-left unit that I want blocking the left Steel, but it's incredibly unlikely that he'll push the soldier up-left or down-left, and the Steels all pass their turns first thing, so it's no big deal if he pushes my unit into the Death Zone this turn. There there is just one X-factor this turn: Moi. If he forces my middle unit to retreat, I lose. Flame Naga means he could be down to two units and still force a retreat. Until you're in that turn 4 position, you can always lose.  ...But not only does Moi retreat, he retreats to a spot that ISN'T one of the three in front of Fake Gustave. That means it's the end of turn 3 and I've got everyone in the right spots to block them turn 4. I've won. So long as I don't lose David in an incredibly stupid way, I've won!  I move the first blocker up to the left Steel, the Archer up to cover both their position and Sargon's, and have a spare unit attack Sargon. Then something very strange happens.  See, one quirk of the War Battle system is that the retreat algorithm can sometimes decide that it has nowhere to retreat to, at which point the unit automatically dies. But Sargon wasn't surrounded or anything. He was at the edge of the map, true, but he still had room to go up or down. This is also unnecessary for the same reason as Isis, but it's certainly a nice cherry on top.   I kill Moi, just to be sure, and assume the position. The Archer unit over there is still a hassle, but I'm really not worried about him; I've got plenty of units to spare here, because I managed to get through with no unit deaths at all, just the loss of individual soldiers.    If you've gotten to this point, you don't get cute. The fact you can see where enemies aim means that you can try to have just those ones block, and use Flame Spear with someone that doesn't have any soldiers facing them. Unless you really, REALLY need to make a soldier retreat for some reason--if you're able to block two but not one--this is not going to get anything accomplished. Steel Soldiers take 40 damage from Flame Spear, and they reinforce one unit at the start of every phase, enemy or ally. You'll have serious difficulty killing one, let alone two, and their Steel Spears mean that they WILL kill you in return if they aim that way. Just Defend.    So I stage the dramatic fighting retreat. You might remember I said, "So long as I don't lose David in an incredibly stupid way, I've won!" This has just got to inspire a certain suspicion in the canny audience, a realization that such stupid invocations of Murphy cannot go unpunished. I had the amazingly bright idea that--for dramatic purposes--I should have David be the one to block Fake Gustave on the middle turn. And as it happens, a strange circumstance arose to give us a little dramatic foreshadowing earlier. Remember how I said that if a unit has no place to retreat when it tries to, it dies, regardless of how many units it had left? And that this can happen, even when there's open space around? Guess what happened on the very last turn?   Yeah, isn't it great that I didn't do something so incredibly stupid? Especially since I'm using the Xebra emulator and a SF2 disc, and while the visual quality is great, it has no save states. I had to pause the game and go get some water at this point. It's like the Ghost of Game Dickery Future came rattling at my window. The rest of turn 8 passes... And as it does, a cheer goes up in the game. (And out of it.)   This was the sixth attempt--the very first guess got it right on the nose. Good job, FeyerbrandX! But I've got one more aspect of this battle to show off before the dramatic epilogue. This battle has a lot of points where it can go very, very wrong, and it can do so over quite a few turns. There's another, faster way to do this... It's more demanding of a particular set of circumstances, to the point that I'd outright call it a system exploit, but it also requires less execution for less time. I know the battle and battle system well enough that I prefer the intended way for its consistency, but it really should be seen. That's tomorrow's update. "Of all the case studies in our world of how historians fail us, South Moundtop is perhaps the strangest. In all times, in all histories, we lionize great men. The Southern Continent believed Gustave's success to be the mark of a great leader; the Eastern Continent believed Gustave's success to be the mark of a great hero; and so neither of them looked to the simple answer, that of arming of many mediocre men with Steel. Nebelstern was gifted, yes, and Gustave charismatic, but in the end the secret of their success was one any man could have found and wielded. Some men say that all great problems of our past have such simple solutions behind them. Perhaps our predecessors thought so, too, when we began to research our histories in earnest, as we became skeptical of stories of heroes. The descendants of the lords of South Moundtop would have you believe the story of the great fighting retreat--after all, how could one man turn the tide, when the Pretender's forces were equal in number and each Edelritter's man was worth two of the Alliance? No, we are wiser than this, surely: let us apply reason to the problem. Surely they must have crushed that stronger force with still greater numbers! And so the would-be wise men before us concocted a story of whole cloth to better flatter our newfound wisdom. Fools, all of them, and I include myself in that number. Exceptions are what make rules instead of laws. We say now that any man could have found the strength of Steel, chiding them for their foolishness, but only Gustave had the strength of will to discard the dream of heroism. He accepted his limits and the limits of his men in a way few men ever dare, and so he came to surpass the destiny those limits had prescribed--that is the heroism of the man we call "The Steel," and his courage is no lesser for the means it manifested. It is something few other men could have managed, and so no other men did so before him. The simplicity of his answer does not make make him any less exceptional, and if we know one man for an exception, then surely there must be still greater men. And so I say to you, as my student said to me with research in hand, waking me from my pretense of wisdom: 'No, Teacher, there was no fighting retreat. The Battle of South Moundtop lasted three days, not eight, and if they never found the Pretender's body, it's because every single man in Lord David's army carried a Flame Tool. If there was ever a hero-king in all our history, it was Lord David--and I can prove it.' There is a reason we know the fifty years that followed as the Peace of David: because every man who lived knew who would raise an army to defend that peace, were it ever disturbed. It speaks volumes that no man dared." Next: The Battle of South Moundtop [Gustave, Part 2] Einander fucked around with this message at 23:03 on May 22, 2015 |
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May 22, 2015 22:59
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Well things turned out okay for David and our overly eager student. Seriously though the professor rants are great, and one of the best things about the LP. I don't even wanna talk about that gameplay since it looked like RNG hell. Rigged Death Trap fucked around with this message at 23:33 on May 22, 2015 |
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May 22, 2015 23:30
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quote:You have absolutely no margin to activate them early. This is unrecoverable. This is actually, at least on one circumstance, still possible. I can attest to it. After God knows how many retries, I got sloppy, and I can't remember if I pushed one person right in Gustave's face, or just let them linger in his aggro zone one turn too early. I was reckless enough (and tired of replaying the intro) to give up at that time. One of the final turns, somehow the planets aligned and I forced Gustave to retreat. I was able to hold the line. Do not try that at home. Also, even with save states, that doesn't do too much good. There's only so many permutations of movement you could try to reseed the vengeful RNG and not get wiped out. Better to just reset, (on an emulator, be grateful for fast forward, not an option 15 years ago), and try again from scratch.  Each of those bastards are Luca Blight. A marathon of pain and suffering. And each of them are 4 or 5 turns of terror. That's why I declared it Luca Blight times 15. I'm more glad that you managed to win in a reasonable time, rather than me being right. FeyerbrandX fucked around with this message at 23:32 on May 22, 2015 |
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May 22, 2015 23:30
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Einander posted:The worst part of this? I made no real tactical errors--I shouldn't had left the enemy attack the same unit twice on turn 1, no, but every other move was simple. Additionally, consider that I know the real win condition here (the "five-day fighting retreat"), know more about the rules behind action speeds than 90% of players (so I can micromanage fights better than most), and I made sure to use Archers at every opportunity. There was no decision I can point to and say, "This is what I did wrong, and if I did something else, I would have won." This. This right here is why the Battle of South Moundtop is bullshit. Note that those turns Einander took would've made this run take about 45 minutes to an hour. He didn't realize until that point that, even with 100% solid play, the CPU just decided he wasn't allowed to win. quote:And so I say to you, as my student said to me with research in hand, waking me from my pretense of wisdom:  After that mess, this is gonna be so satisfying.
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May 22, 2015 23:40
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So let me guess: "Defeat Gustave" is a joke win condition they added for verisimilitude and symmetry. You lose if David dies, Gustave loses if he dies. Except of course Gustave isn't supposed to really be possible to kill, because his unit is nearly invincible and he's standing right next to two identical units essentially as invincible. But because that win condition is there, all that matters is somehow destroying Gustave's unit. Which is normally impossible, because Gustave's unit couldn't possibly be wiped out to a man with the meager forces David has at his disposal. But you don't have to wipe a unit out to a man to remove them from the battlefield. They also die if they can't retreat. So you don't have to defeat Gustave's unit. You just have to win one battle against it while it's completely surrounded, right? Which you should be able to do because I'm guessing the three units can be baited separately to stagger themselves, giving you space to surround Gustave?
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May 23, 2015 00:02
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"Defeat Gustave" is one hell of a win condition. It's also the one I took, because I didn't get how to do the '5-day fighting retreat' correctly. You've seen how hard it is to stall. I tried and tried, and always lost at the end, either to losing David or the base. Sometimes, "gently caress it, I'm just gonna throw all my units face first into certain death until I win" is the way to go. At least then your losses go quicker.
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May 23, 2015 00:11
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Well, that was certainly an interesting insight into game design... and quite possibly, how not to do it.  That was some quite spectacular bullshit.I must be losing my touch, though. I cannot for the life of me figure out what bad jokes could be made about the Tone Lord being called Isis.
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May 23, 2015 00:23
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Yapping Eevee posted:I must be losing my touch, though. I cannot for the life of me figure out what bad jokes could be made about the Tone Lord being called Isis. Nothing related to Egyptian Dieties, just horrible people conquering unstable parts of the world.
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May 23, 2015 00:26
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The Tone Lord's name is just a bizarre coincidence, considering that 1) The Lordless Lands are basically in the same region of the world as the real Middle East, 2) Everyone is fighting there constantly, 3) Quite a few of the Megaliths are there, along with the ruins of the Hahn Empire (it's a cradle of civilizations past!), and 4) the Battle of South Moundtop is fought in a desert (not the "rolling dunes" kind of desert, but that's pretty obviously a desert). Life is weird sometimes.
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May 23, 2015 00:34
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doom.png  That looked like kind of a mess. Glad I'm not the one who has to deal with the mechanics of it!
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May 23, 2015 00:49
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FeyerbrandX posted:Nothing related to Egyptian Dieties, just horrible people conquering unstable parts of the world. Ohhh, that Isis. 
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May 23, 2015 00:58
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The 5 days fighting retreat was the strategy I hit on for winning. I still couldn't beat it after 20 tries because the RNG kept ruining me. Either while taking down enough Edelritter to get the field set up or by having my units die to the retreat bug.
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May 23, 2015 01:11
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I decided to check out the Brady Games guide to see what their strategy is for this fight. I was actually kind of surprised that it's basically more or less what Einander did here.Brady Games Saga Frontier 2 Strategy Guide posted:Battle of South Moundtop The only real difference I can think of in the two strategies as outlined is that the Brady Games calls for you to be a bit more aggressive than Einander was. Einander got lucky with some of the fights against the non-Steel Soldier units in his sixth run, whereas the guide explicitly attempts to get you to actively wipe them out.
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May 23, 2015 02:40
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W.T. Fits posted:I decided to check out the Brady Games guide to see what their strategy is for this fight. I was actually kind of surprised that it's basically more or less what Einander did here. This is basically what I did my first time (no guide). I figured out the stall strategy after my second attempt and screwed it up on my third, but the fourth went as smooth as butter. That said, I'm hype as hell for the next update
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May 23, 2015 04:16
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It's actually a somewhat valid strategy. Not Gustave and his steel troops can only move one space at a time if you position it right before turn four, so if you manage to blitz down a few of the Edelritters before then, the stall strategy really does get a lot easier. ...That's what I did, at least.
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May 23, 2015 04:24
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Nakar posted:So you don't have to defeat Gustave's unit. You just have to win one battle against it while it's completely surrounded, right? Which you should be able to do because I'm guessing the three units can be baited separately to stagger themselves, giving you space to surround Gustave? Not quite separately, they activate at the same time, and Gustave moving first isn't actually relevant. However, the enemy troops will advance 2 spaces if both are open.
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May 23, 2015 05:30
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Nowadays I probably would've figured out this strategy. 14 year-old stupid-rear end me would not and did not. It's entirely new territory from this point forward for me.
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May 23, 2015 06:56
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Nakar posted:So you don't have to defeat Gustave's unit. You just have to win one battle against it while it's completely surrounded, right? Which you should be able to do because I'm guessing the three units can be baited separately to stagger themselves, giving you space to surround Gustave? I'm fairly sure it doesn't need to be all allied units surrounding the enemy, but you'll want as many rolls of the dice as possible. It's a very silly exploit.
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May 23, 2015 11:06
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I knew vaguely about the proper strategy (and exploits) for the Battle of South Moundtop, but I never reached that point in my playthroughs. Now that I've read this LP, I can also appreciate just how much of a dick move it is, mechanically speaking. Yeesh.
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May 23, 2015 13:00
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Heavy neutrino posted:I'm fairly sure it doesn't need to be all allied units surrounding the enemy, but you'll want as many rolls of the dice as possible. It's a very silly exploit.
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May 23, 2015 14:51
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Well, that's that battle over with. Congratulations on pulling through some real bullshit.
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May 23, 2015 17:59
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Rangpur posted:I knew vaguely about the proper strategy (and exploits) for the Battle of South Moundtop, but I never reached that point in my playthroughs. Now that I've read this LP, I can also appreciate just how much of a dick move it is, mechanically speaking. Yeesh. It's more that every army battle up to now has been a complete joke that you can just walk over, and then suddenly the devs ask you to divine all the weird mechanics, play a perfect game, and have a bit of luck to boot. It's really strange.
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May 23, 2015 18:02
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My guess is the devs underestimated how easy they had made it before, so they expected every battle up to now was teaching you how to fight the perfect battle, when really they didn't come close.
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May 23, 2015 18:37
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Well it's worth noting that South Moundtop is essentially the "final boss" of the Gustave path of the game, so it being a challenge at least sort of makes sense. The problem is more the difficulty balance of Gustave's section - which is really gameplay-light - has thus far been incredibly easy, and the war battles you did fight were walkovers. At least the Knights part has more gameplay and I presume its final boss will be a difficult party battle. I think what they should've done is make the battle against Charles be one where Charles has a ton of numbers in his favor and a "guard this objective" secondary goal that's basically impossible to beat because he'll slip something past you if you stay defensive. Making the intended win there to bust through Charles's center with your Steel Soldiers and assassinate him. It would've still been far easier than South Moundtop because your troops would be nearly invincible, but it at least would've required you to think while also helping you understand that units that can't actually beat Gustave's in a fight could still win the battle by getting in his way, which would give you some idea of what to try when playing as David.
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May 23, 2015 18:42
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The Battle of South Moundtop [Gustave, Part 2] (1305) The armies of fake Gustave and Count David of Jade clash. 1305 Battle of South Moundtop David, Count of Jade, commands the united armies of the feudal lords and defeats fake Gustave. 1305 Hahn Nova Treaty The very first worldwide peace treaty. Welcome back to The Battle of South Moundtop. You've already seen the intro, so let's skip past that. In this chapter, I'll be showing off a particular infamous alternate strategy. The Battle of South Moundtop has two win conditions, as shown: survive until the start of turn 9 (the "five day fighting retreat" strategy) and "Defeat Fake Gustave." This strategy is designed to do the second. You may remember that I said that defeating one Steel Soldier was incredibly implausible, let alone four. This hasn't changed.  If you paid attention last time, though, you've already seen the particular mechanic that will be Fake Gustave's downfall.   This method is incredibly particular. This, for example, is probably a reset: if the generic goes off-script, so does Isis, and the third turn is the most luck-reliant of all... Mitigated only by the fact you get several tries. If the generic doesn't cooperate, then you effectively get one less reroll on the last turn.  Generic cooperates this time, Torres and Isis go off-script. You get the idea. It takes two more resets before enemy movement actually goes as I need it to; unlike the first three days of the conventional strategy, there's relatively little room for deviation here.  Even then, though, Sargon retreated to the wrong place, so this is probably also unwinnable. I usually pull off this strategy after about ten or so tries; I was particularly unlucky this time with the first turn, so it took twenty, but none of those tries took more than five minutes. The primary advantage of the strategy is that retrying is quick and it's not very demanding in its actual execution.  If the stars align properly, this will be your status at the start of turn 2.  At this point, you attack Sargon (more for the hell of it than anything, he's completely irrelevant to the strategy) and move the rest of your troops up to aggro Gustave's group. This particular formation is also very precise:   It provokes Gustave to move into the center of your group. At this point, Moi will attack (look just left of the textbox in the second screenshot)...  ...and if you defend to ensure that you lose, that unit will almost always retreat behind Gustave. I got unlucky here, in that the right Steel Soldier forced my unit to retreat down-right for some reason (retreat mechanics are stupid and I hate them). Remember what I said about the generic and Isis determining how many rerolls you get?  I had to move the soldier who retreated strangely to complete the square here, so that was one less attempt I got.  At this point, everyone attacks Gustave, including the Archers... And then they Defend, every single time, every single unit. You're still getting arrows. Successive Battle penalties start at a 12% reduction in max health for the second and third fights and move up to a 25% reduction at the fourth and fifth fights, if a unit is attacked that many times a turn. This is just about the only time that you'll reach the second threshold.  And if you have Archer support, the soldiers attacking Fake Gustave manage to defend twice in a turn, and if the Steel Soldiers don't do LP damage with Rush, then the internal calculations will tally up the damage done to each side and score it as a win. Fake Gustave will retreat.  Except that you've boxed him in, so he can't retreat.  Victory through mechanical exploit! If you can get to the last turn, you're fairly likely to get this off. The top and right soldiers in the box take two attacks on turn 2 (three, if the enemy generic went off-script and sent Isis your way), so they're less likely to succeed, but David and the bottom soldier can always attack Fake Gustave with impunity. If you get four attacks on Fake Gustave, then the increased block odds on Defend add up; I only got to this point twice, both times with the right side out of the running, and it worked on the first real attack of the second try. There's no animation for the Lord of Laubholz's arrival if you defeat Fake Gustave, but none of the story scenes after this change. Credit for the specific execution of this strategy goes to an old Geocities site, preserved by the oocities archive here, which I first found through Zach Keene's Odds and Ends FAQ on GameFAQs, years and years back (back when you could actually still go to Geocities sites). Now that we've seen the battle won twice, let's get to the epilogue of the Battle of South Moundtop and the end of Gustave's story.  (Rosary)  The lords and independent cities across the world sign this treaty. This treaty becomes known as the Hahn Nova Treaty, after the location in which it was signed.  After signing the treaty, the notable lords give their speeches. To this day, the speech of David, Count of Jade, the central figure of the treaty, remains in the hearts of the people.    From all over the world people have gathered to work hand in hand to achieve our peace. Yet much sweat and tears have been shed, the Animas of many have been lost. We must not forget their precious sacrifices. A short pause. This peace we have today, we owe to the hardships and efforts of our predecessors, especially the founder of this city of Hahn Nova, Gustave the Steel. He has brought upon us a new era of steel and artistry. Among all of you, there might be those that look upon Lord Gustave as the disrupter of order, the summoner of battles and of confusion.   A short pause.  Even such a great man as Lord Gustave needed the aid of friends, trustworthy comrades who helped him achieve his goals. As for us, we will need even further cooperation among ourselves. A short pause. Ideally, my father Charles would have been the one standing here today.     The Knights South Moundtop sets up a lot of David's points about blood and destiny. Gustaf, child of Kelvin's good son, runs away from responsibility and becomes a wandering Digger; David, child of the one who followed in Cantal's footsteps, is the one who inherits Kelvin's mantle--surpasses him, even, protecting Gustave's lands and legacy in a way Kelvin never managed to. Primiera turns her back on Cantal's legacy and her own stepmother's hatred towards Jade, and while Ginny wants to stop the Egg, she never so much as expresses hatred towards it. Even Wil has let go of his own obsession.  (Reminiscence) The game begins to go through the Gustave-side scenarios you completed one by one at this point, displaying an important scene from each in turn. There's no dialogue in this part, even if the original scene had it.  "I shall bestow upon you my name, and the name of my ancestors: Gustave. You will be Gustave XIII. Become a great man. A man that will not disgrace our name."  "You good-for-nothing!"  "It will be another twenty years until Gustave sees this castle again."  "Just cut that out, Gustave!" "Why you...!" "Are you crying, Gustave?"  "Yeh've forged a magnificent sword." "This one's only practice. The real sword I intend to forge will be three times longer." "Can there really be a sword as monstrous as that in this world?" "Yes. I can see that sword... Somewhere out there..."  "Sir Gus!!" "We're going, Flynn!" "Wait, Sir Gus!!"  "I'm wondering, Flynn: does Gustave like Leslie?" "What!? They were always fighting, but..." "Hmph, Gustave's still such a kid." "...Uh, Kelvin. Lately, you've begun to sound like Sir Gus."  "As for Philippe and Marie, please tell them... I'm very sorry." "......Yes." "Gustave, please let me have a good look at your face one last time." "Yes."  "So this is where it leads... Flynn, notify Kelvin. You can get past the castle walls through here."  "No... It's only by circumstance that you're a pirate...This may just be a big test to attain your dreams." "......" "People only judge others by appearance, ya know?" "You talk as if you've gone through something similar."  "You should just do as you please. Whether the people decide to follow you or not is a decision they must make on their own." "What are you going to do, Leslie? Will you be coming with me?" "Well, let me see. What should I do?"  "However, I do not want the throne. I just want to see what I am capable of. I am sacrificing everyone's Anima for so selfish a motive. How appropriate, coming from a man with no Anima, eh?"  "What is wrong? You have too much pride to speak to a good-for-nothing like me?" "..." "Kelvin, General, I'll leave the rest up to you. Farewell, Your Majesty." "You good-for-nothing! Good-for-nothing!"  "Philippe, Marie, before our mother's Anima left on her journey, she told me to give you this message. I'm very--" "--I'm very sorry, Philippe, Marie." "Mother!" "Motherrrr!"  "No. There has never been such a city throughout history, nor will there be such a city in the future. This city will be the exception!!" "That is brilliant."  "Why? Why did this have to happen!? Someone...anyone...tell me!!"  "(Nothing will come of this bloodshed. Hate only gives way to more hate.)" "No one is asking you to do it. I will do it myself. Communicate this to the commanders; show no mercy."  "Who are you, anyway?" "You still don't know? I'm Gustave."  "I couldn't help myself...I just responded to his orders. Who is this man? How was he able to see through the guise of the Scorpion? It sparked my interest. But beyond that, it felt comfortable to listen to his voice ordering me."  "Thank you, sir. This is as far as you need to go to see me off." "General! ...Thank you."  "I don't have much time left. Please stay inside, Master Gustave. Just order me to defend this position." "Yes, I'll leave that to you. We'll meet again, Johan." "Come get some, you monsters! I'll show you what my Assassin Arts are all about!"  "Dirk, is that true?" "Yes..."  "Father, please calm yourself. Look at our soldiers. They are in no condition to fight." "Hmm, their hearts are already in Jade..." "I will go in your stead."  "Kelvin finally obtains glory at the age of 67."  "There are lords that have already given up on the pact. Father, if you leave, the pact will surely crumble."  "Send a messenger to the lords at once. Tell them I am coming to exterminate the impostor."  "Our army was defeated near the outskirts of Hahn Nova and... Master Charles has fallen in battle."  "Yet what Lord Gustave has taught us is that we humans can become whatever we seek with our own will. He has proven to us that what people are or what they become is not determined by their birth or Anima."   (The Outside World) [Ep43] 1305 Battle of South Moundtop David, Count of Jade, commands the united armies of the feudal lords and defeats fake Gustave. 1305 Hahn Nova Treaty The very first worldwide peace treaty. With Fake Gustave defeated and the Peace of David secured, Gustave's story has come to a close. All that's left is for the last living Knights to put their family history behind them. Next: Into the Northern Continent (1306)
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May 23, 2015 21:34
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This last little bit of David's speech is where the Gustave end kind of loses me a bit. What Gustave the Steel accomplished is very much a result of his birth, as the son of the king of Finney. It is what let him claim so much at the start, and what allowed him to become ambitious. Is it in his character and personality to have crafted his steel sword and set upon a path of proving to do as much as he could have, regardless of his circumstances? Probably. But he wouldn't have gotten as far if he was a commoner. But the core behind it, as far as doing as much as you can with the circumstances you're given, still resonates. And the music helps a lot.
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May 23, 2015 21:57
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Really, what his nobility got him were his friends, not his drive. And after that initial introduction he still had to work hard on keeping them.
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May 24, 2015 03:25
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Glazius posted:Really, what his nobility got him were his friends, not his drive. And after that initial introduction he still had to work hard on keeping them. Without a legit claim on the throne, he wouldn't have been able to take the throne. That said, he still would have been a huge loving deal.
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May 24, 2015 04:33
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Elric posted:Without a legit claim on the throne, he wouldn't have been able to take the throne. That said, he still would have been a huge loving deal. He never even took the throne, he left it to Phillip. What his claim to the throne got him was an army, and it was made clear that they only followed him because they thought he'd take the throne.
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May 24, 2015 04:39
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Clarste posted:He never even took the throne, he left it to Phillip. What his claim to the throne got him was an army, and it was made clear that they only followed him because they thought he'd take the throne. Weren't they Wide's standing army? They probably would have followed Gustave wherever he went. Also, it's pretty ironic that the future rulers of Jade aren't descended from Kelvin. Does Gustaf ever take his claim to Finney seriously?
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May 24, 2015 05:33
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Huh, the way I did this was a lot rougher and less calculated than yours -- it was my second or third attempt at the fight after trying normally, and I think I went for the Edelritters before catching Gustave one turn away from my HQ.
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May 24, 2015 14:27
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By the way, remember the Brady Games guide? I didn't quite give you guys the whole breakdown of their advice for dealing with South Moundtop. I held off on posting this part because I wasn't sure if it was accurate and wanted to verify something with Einander beforehand - Brady Games posted:To survive this battle, you must enact the above strategy perfectly, which can take several tries and a whole lotta luck. For those of you without the patience, it is also possible to win this battle using a certain missing ingredient. To find out what that is, skip this chapter and finish the Knights Family scenarios until you reach this exact same chapter. So yeah... the guide advises you to either try the 5 day retreat strategy and hope you get lucky, or just recruit Gustaf for the fight by playing through all the Knights' chapters before doing the Gustave version of South Moundtop. Except, as Einander already pointed out, Gustaf never actually shows up during the battle and even if he had, it would have been on Day 8 when he wouldn't have made any drat difference anyway. 
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May 25, 2015 03:26
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Both times I finished South Moundtop I 100%-ed Gustave's story, does anyone know if you still get the slideshow of the secret chapters if you miss them?
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May 25, 2015 05:15
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Thanks for that excerpt, W.T. Fits! Edited your post into the South Moundtop Knights post where I mentioned that rumor, because I'd forgotten Brady Games was partially responsible for it. Brady Games! TARDISman posted:Both times I finished South Moundtop I 100%-ed Gustave's story, does anyone know if you still get the slideshow of the secret chapters if you miss them? You don't get them to show up unless you did them, and I'm fairly sure that if you did the scenarios in a weird order (Anima Faith before the others, for example), then you'll get that same weird order in the playback. I might pop South Moundtop in a NG+ if I get really bored sometime before the end of the LP, just to check, but I'm pretty sure. (Do it in Merlin order! Gustave ages backwards.)
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May 25, 2015 05:32
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If Gustaf was available, how useful would he even be? Especially since he probably wouldn't show up on the first turn even if he could be unlocked, so you'd still be quite limited in how much use you could even get out of him. Unless he can somehow solo Steel Soldiers he just ends up being another warm body on the field.
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May 25, 2015 07:26
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The only thing more overpowered than Steel Soldiers are characters in war battles, he'd take a significant amount of the RNG off of being able to defeat Fake Gustave. Anything else depends on his unit: if Gustaf is flying solo he'd be able to take out all the Rangers no problem but Steel Soldiers would give him issues with all of them using Rush on him. If Gustaf has a bunch of generics with him he would clean house since they'd act as a buffer and allow him to kill everything.
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May 25, 2015 07:36
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Nakar posted:If Gustaf was available, how useful would he even be? Especially since he probably wouldn't show up on the first turn even if he could be unlocked, so you'd still be quite limited in how much use you could even get out of him. Unless he can somehow solo Steel Soldiers he just ends up being another warm body on the field. Enemy commanders don't show up in the actual fights (while your own commanders do), so Gustaf could run up to Fake Gustave and wipe the floor with the ~100 HP Steel Soldiers with a single After Vision, immediately winning the map. Army fight mechanics are really, really bad to be honest. Heavy neutrino fucked around with this message at 09:45 on May 25, 2015 |
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May 25, 2015 09:42
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Into the Northern Continent (1206) After the Battle of South Moundtop, the Egg disappears... 1305 Ginny goes after the Egg Ginny chases the Egg to the star Megalith.   (Dithyramb)    Looks like the party we're after has crossed to the Northern Continent as we suspected. I found a sailor that ferried an important-looking figure who was accompanied by six others.  The interior of the Northern Continent is a vast unexplored region. There could be some kind of hideout there.  Let's go after them! A conspicuous group like theirs should be easy to track.  Then we're set loose in Thermes.  This scenario marks the single age-up point of the third generation. Ginny has aged from 14 to 15 and gained +8 HP, +2 WP, and +1 SP. Wil has aged from 85 to 86 and lost 1 WP. Primiera has aged from 19 to 20 and gained +9 HP, +1 WP, and +1 SP. Gustaf has aged from 25 to 26 and gained +8 HP. The Battle of South Moundtop switched the Flame Sword to the Firebrand (no stat change) and Gustaf's Sword to Gustave's Sword (43->53 Attack, -10 SP). The shopping in this scenario is the very last opportunity to buy or to retrieve items from previous characters. All that remains once this scenario is complete is one more dungeon, and while enemies can drop some special items there, there's no treasure just laying around. That said, it's a little too late to make any real preparations. The best weapons you can buy are in Hahn Nova or Vogelang, and there's no place here where you can grind out a few Weapon or Anima levels if you're just shy of a particular Custom Tool. You can't get Dead Stones in the last dungeon (not that I'm aware of, anyway), either, and unless you have very specific needs and know the right information, I wouldn't advise trying to Spark Arts in the final dungeon. This would be why the Odds and Ends FAQ suggests dumping chronological order entirely for the end, switching over to the Gustave side just before doing To Gustave's Stronghold. This ensures that if you somehow get into an unwinnable state, you can go back, level up, and shop after To Gustave's Stronghold without having to do South Moundtop again afterward. That said, while others build it up and I'm doing the same, the final dungeon is nothing big. Like South Moundtop, it takes away crutches that you've likely grown dependent on, and it requires knowledge that you've never been sufficiently challenged to learn and that the game won't teach you... But unlike South Moundtop, if you do know what you need to know, then you won't need much luck to pull this off.     The town's buzzing about South Moundtop, and one NPC reminds you, HEY, PLAYER, BUY THINGS, YOU CAN'T TAKE IT WITH YOU   (Ovation)  I drop by the Equip Reclaimer.   The big things to grab here are any and all Dead Stones and, if you stashed them on Rich before talking to Narcisse, the Life Seeds from Life Tree Island.  Five individual full HP/LP/WP/SP heals, two party WP/SP heals. I'll probably burn the Life Seeds before the final boss, just in case; if you didn't get them, then Soul Crystals from the Custom Tools Shop have the same effect. If you're particularly paranoid, buy as many as the game will allow you so you can grind in the final dungeon effectively without penalty; you should have Quell/Steel weapons at this point, and it's not like you really need the slots anyway.     Of course I am, random townsperson! Did you hear that little girl? They stomped on the flowers! Those monsters must be put down.    I mean, seriously, serial discourtesy. No rational civilization can tolerate such behavior.   There's a second equip reclaimer here, in case you entered the second area and realized that you really needed something.   Talking to the innkeeper behind the counter lets you do any last-minute repairs or Custom Orders you need.   This gentleman will let you do any last-minute conversions you need.  Both Wil and Rich had NPCs comment on how grim and serious they looked in their final scenarios, and they have serious music. The lead-up to Ginny's final scenario has upbeat music, and one NPC in every town she passes through talks about how incredibly stoked she is to beat the poo poo out of this ancient eldritch horror. Ginny is pretty great.  Old people get better and better with Anima, as shown with the way Wil's kept gaining SP into his old age, so I'm inclined to trust the random old man.  This scenario is pretty unique. Once you leave here...  (Field of Battle III)   You're immediately thrown into a fight. Despite appearances, this area has no passive Anima, which is Really Weird. This tends to be a Megalith exclusive trait. None of the fights are too difficult, though. This first fight is up against two Megalith Wurms and a Wurm Leader, from the Insect Megalith scenario a while ago. They're still offensively potent but defensively fragile.   We've gotten stronger since then.  (Faerie Queen)  After each battle, you're pushed into the menus, just in case you want to change something around (like if a weapon breaks, if you're some kind of breakable-weapon-using weirdo). Who cares about that part, though? Listen to the music. It's fantastic.  Afterward, once you move on, you're thrown back into battle. No dungeon exploring this time. At least we're not getting narration of the trek inward from some guy in a chair. There's worse ways to run out of budget for an in-between segment.   You fight three normal fights from a pseudorandom pool, followed by a special fourth fight that's always the same.  The Megalith Dragon is this scenario's boss. He's also the boss of the random encounters in the final dungeon, because you can fight as many of them as you want. His Flash Skill is just below the Megalith Beast, and that's really the closest comparison--roughly the same amount of HP, a bit more dangerous by himself but coming with no allies (this time). This one is special, though. Every Megalith Dragon can drop a 18-use version of the Uroborus, the strongest spear, which clocks in just one attack stronger than the Paladin Spear (and without the Steel penalties). This one also has, as a Scene Drop, the Dominant Gloves, which grant +12 physical defense and +11 magical defense; despite their Steel Gauntlet icon, they're not actually Steel, neither adding nor subtracting SP/SPR. They're very good armor, and they're in two of the Scene Drop slots, so you get two shots. Still not good, mind, but this is a pretty profitable fight to go for drops on if you're willing to do the three fights before it.     Draconian Slicer is Instant Death, but otherwise, if he doesn't use Plunge (a big line attack), he's pretty pathetic. He drops in short order, but doesn't drop any of his goodies. And with the path clear...    Ginny finally reaches The Last Megalith. It's do-or-die time now.  1305 Ginny goes after the Egg Ginny chases the Egg to the star Megalith. Next: The Last Megalith (1306) Einander fucked around with this message at 01:27 on May 29, 2015 |
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May 25, 2015 23:52
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It's omelet-making time. 
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May 26, 2015 01:12
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| # ? Jun 8, 2024 03:49 |
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It turned people into slimes and monsters, impersonated an international hero, and brought nations to war, but stepping on that woman's flowers was over the line.
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May 26, 2015 01:45
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