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Please don't troll by implying otherwise
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May 23, 2015 04:50
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It's Vanille.
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May 23, 2015 04:51
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definitely fang
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May 23, 2015 04:52
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YIKES Stay Gooned posted:Who's hotter: Lightning, Fang or Vanille. Alyssa
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May 23, 2015 04:54
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YIKES Stay Gooned posted:Who's hotter: Lightning, Fang or Vanille. Lightning and Fang.
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May 23, 2015 04:56
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Hope's mother.
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May 23, 2015 04:57
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I love mindlessly consuming garbage. 
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May 23, 2015 04:59
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What the gently caress has even happened here Is this what XIII does to people
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May 23, 2015 04:59
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YIKES Stay Gooned posted:Who's hotter: Lightning, Fang or Vanille.
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May 23, 2015 05:01
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Francis posted:Bosses like Barthandelus that cast doom do so after 20 minutes, so the time limit is about 23 minutes or slightly longer if you use summons. The game provides feedback? Like what, star ratings? They're mostly meaningless and sandbagging for shrouds is the only material benefit you get from them as far as I can recall. Say what you like but ranking systems are a feedback (and I pointed out earlier that, no, there is a straight-up material benefit, you can't even get certain items to drop below 3 stars.) Beyond that the entire stagger system is based around encouraging repeated attacks and less turtling. If you ignore that entirely that is fine but the game absolutely shoves it in your face. Between the stagger meter and the chain meter there's very little benefit to playing passively. Francis posted:Most games punish you for 'playing it wrong' or ignoring mechanics or going somewhere you aren't supposed to go or whatever by killing you. Final Fantasy XIII cannot kill you creatively since the mechanics aren't deep enough to do anything more than apply damage to hit points or cast Doom. No encounter that deals enough damage to hit points to kill a player in triple sentinel (swapping between medic and keeping buffs up, etc) can be beaten and an unwinnable encounter is another strong contender for Objectively Bad Design so that leaves the Doom option. You're wrong about the triple-sentinel thing because you can actually beat most bosses in the game without using the Crystarium or equipment upgrades! Proper swapping and actually understanding the mechanics allows you to do more than triple-sentineling and hoping for the best. Likewise, FFXIII actually has a few different mechanics in play. The Doom thing is the gimmick of a specific boss (who you, admittedly, fight repeatedly.) It's a gimmick designed to encourage speed but it isn't like every boss in the game casts Doom at 20 minutes. Francis posted:It's nice when figuring out the winning pattern takes more than five seconds or isn't the same for most of your time with the game. To an extent Final Fantasy XIII actually benefits from the overlong tutorial for this reason. The "winning pattern" involves using the proper combination of healing, attack, buffing, debuffing and defending at the right time in the enemy pattern for maximum effectiveness while minimizing damage to your party. I have now described every Final Fantasy combat system. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 05:11 on May 23, 2015 |
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May 23, 2015 05:01
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YIKES Stay Gooned posted:Who's hotter: Lightning, Fang or Vanille. Zero. wait poo poo
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May 23, 2015 05:02
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I finished and got the Plat Trophy in Type-0 today. When I first started the game, I thought "why are people disliking this? It's actually pretty fun!" and now I just want to throw the game into a fire. It sucks and isn't very good and S-E must have spent 5 bucks on that VA it's so bad. Please don't buy the game. I actually bought it because I wanted to play it, not just for the XV demo, so that really hurts.
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May 23, 2015 05:05
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I almost want to buy the X/X-2 re-release, but I know I'll get sucked into endless hours of Blitzball....
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May 23, 2015 05:07
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Boten Anna posted:I have provided examples though? Here's a few things about Theatrhythm off the top of my head that are very bad design: This is all true and it's a shame
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May 23, 2015 05:09
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pretend to care posted:I almost want to buy the X/X-2 re-release, but I know I'll get sucked into endless hours of Blitzball.... Apparently it's got some nasty bugs so I'd hold off. (If you mean the PS4 version.)
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May 23, 2015 05:14
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Artix posted:Zero. If we're going this direction the clear answer is Rise. All your waifus a poo poo, mine's a pop idol with identity issues.
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May 23, 2015 05:18
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Celes
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May 23, 2015 05:21
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ImpAtom posted:Say what you like but ranking systems are a feedback (and I pointed out earleir that, no, there is a straight-up material benefit, you can't even get certain items to drop below 3 stars.) What items? Anything you need? Or even care about? ImpAtom posted:Beyond that the entire stagger system is based around encouraging repeated attacks and less turtling. If you ignore that entirely that is fine but the game absolutely shoves it in your face. Between the stagger meter and the chain meter there's very little benefit to playing passively. It doesn't really shove it in your face. It's there. The benefit is more damage. Think about how many times there's a confusing or poorly explained system in an RPG and when you ask about it people will say 'oh, just ignore it if you don't understand it, it doesn't really matter.' (like dualizing in Tales of Graces, can you guess what I'm playing?) What does Final Fantasy XIII do to impress upon you how important staggering is? Most random battles will end before the stagger meter fills. ImpAtom posted:That's pretty ridiculous. "If I do nothing but heal and refuse to attack, the game is unwinnable" isn't bad design because it involves a player intentionally setting up an unwinnable situation. Likewise, there are other examples in FFXIII of them using the mechanics in ways besides Doom meter. That particular fight probably could be more elegant but it's unwinnable only if you intentionally throw it. It's bad design because the game isn't unwinnable without arbitrarily killing you and would be unlosable otherwise. It's like how SMT bonus bosses insist you 'play fair' because you would otherwise be immune to everything. The three big differences are that 1) SMT only prevents you from cheesing the hardest optional content in the game and not a mid-level storyline boss, 2) the abusive, foolproof setup in FFXIII is also the most tedious and time-consuming, and 3) both games should tell you what they're doing and why before they do them but SMT bonus bosses megidolaon you on Turn 1 and not after twenty minutes. ImpAtom posted:The "winning pattern" involves using the proper combination of healing, attack, buffing, debuffing and defending at the right time in the enemy pattern for maximum effectiveness while minimizing damage to your party. I have now described every Final Fantasy combat system. We both agree that Final Fantasy combat systems are pretty mediocre. In many of them equipment, skill, and class setup is a good deal more involved and interesting than fighting the battles themselves. Final Fantasy XIII has streamlined away nearly all of these systems. All it has left is fighting battles, which is more interesting than in any other Final Fantasy, but still not great.
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May 23, 2015 05:22
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ImpAtom posted:Apparently it's got some nasty bugs so I'd hold off. (If you mean the PS4 version.) I do. Thanks for the heads up. I still have Shadows of Mordor in the wrapping, so I guess I'll give that a shot. 
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May 23, 2015 05:23
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Francis posted:It doesn't really shove it in your face. It's there. The benefit is more damage. No it isn't. The stagger system does the following: More damage (duh) Increases the success rate of status effects, including things like Instant Death Improves healing Allows certain moves (launchers) to be used. Changes an enemy's resistances Changes an enemy's attack patterns The meter is onscreen at all times. There are giant pop-up tutorials on stagger. Many of the moves you can unlock focus on stagger. The core combat system and paradigm swapping involves stagger management more than it does damage. Most bosses have special responses to being staggered. There is a giant cool visual feedback when you max stagger out so even if you don't understand it mechanically for some reason you should still be going for it because it gives you cool effects, makes your numbers bigger, and lets you knock enemies into the air. If you didn't understand that the stagger system is important early into FFXIII, I'm not sure what to say. There's a difference between not understanding a minor mechanic and not understanding the entire center point of the game's combat system. pretend to care posted:I do. Thanks for the heads up. I still have Shadows of Mordor in the wrapping, so I guess I'll give that a shot. You lucky bastard. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 05:30 on May 23, 2015 |
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May 23, 2015 05:27
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It emphasizes staggering by that being like, the sole mechanic everything else is built around...
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May 23, 2015 05:27
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There's no better gameplay feeling in any FF than launching a freshly staggered opponent into the air and swapping to COM/COM/COM and having Lightning, Fang and Sazh unload on the helpless sucker while HUGE GOLD NUMBERS fly out of it
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May 23, 2015 05:28
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ImpAtom posted:No it isn't. You don't need to care about any of this at all. This is, perhaps, a flaw. YIKES Stay Gooned posted:There's no better gameplay feeling in any FF than launching a freshly staggered opponent into the air and swapping to COM/COM/COM and having Lightning, Fang and Sazh unload on the helpless sucker while HUGE GOLD NUMBERS fly out of it look I already said Final Fantasy has really bad gameplay what more do you want Francis fucked around with this message at 05:32 on May 23, 2015 |
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May 23, 2015 05:29
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Francis posted:You don't need to care about any of this at all. This is, perhaps, a flaw. Yes you do.  It is literally the thing the combat system is built around. It is the reason you bother swapping paradigms! The entire point of Commander/Ravager is that they have different impact on the stagger meter!
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May 23, 2015 05:32
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ImpAtom posted:Yes you do. It's a vile troll.
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May 23, 2015 05:33
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Francis posted:You don't need to care about any of this at all. This is, perhaps, a flaw. You do if you want to actually interact with and influence the game in front of you and not have every random encounter take roughly triple the time they would otherwise This fact seems to elude alot of people who've sworn blood oaths against FFXIII
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May 23, 2015 05:38
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I would say the stagger meter being in the top right of the screen at all times and moving every time you hit an enemy would make it obvious enough that it's an important part of the system.
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May 23, 2015 05:38
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I wonder if people would have a better outlook on FFXIII if it was harder and you absolutely needed to interact with staggering or the buff/debuff classes to progress, stopping them from giving the bare minimum, taking 50 minutes to slowly whittle down a boss and thinking the problem was the game
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May 23, 2015 05:41
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There are really people who don't get the stagger system?
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May 23, 2015 05:42
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Brother Entropy posted:I wonder if people would have a better outlook on FFXIII if it was harder and you absolutely needed to interact with staggering or the buff/debuff classes to progress, stopping them from giving the bare minimum, taking 50 minutes to slowly whittle down a boss and thinking the problem was the game Amusingly part of the complaints about FFXIII in Japan were that it was too hard to begin with. That is why FFXIII:I's only major change was an Easy mode and probably part of why FFXIII-2 was so piss-easy. This seems to be continuing with FFXV where they heard both "this is too easy" from the west and "this is too hard" from Japan!
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May 23, 2015 05:44
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Guys, you need to take it easy. Lighten up while you still can, don't even try to understand. Stop sending all of these negative waves.
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May 23, 2015 05:45
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My biggest worry for Square Enix's future is that they don't seem to have learned yet that they need to make game mechanics and systems more central to their game design process instead of--as they have admitted to doing in every mainline Final Fantasy game in the last 9 years and is clearly manifest in many if not most of their high profile titles--basically just doing a bunch of CG movies and game assets and giving the intern a week to make something playable. Both FF13 and FF14 famously had disastrous game systems at launch, with one requiring two sequels to clean up and the other quite famously having to be cratered and rebuilt from the ground up. Even Theatrhythm indicates this pattern, as the first entry has an absolutely terrible game system outside tap-in-beat-to-FF-songs part that discouraged purchasing DLC due to it being irrelevant to the only game mode that mattered if you played the RPG part or wanted to unlock your favorite character. In all these examples, usually the battles turned out OK but flawed, but everything surrounding it and supporting it is just broken in a multitude of ways. Just as a long time fan, I'm getting exhausted with this pattern and overall it seems to be eroding a lot of the value of Square Enix's IPs, especially Final Fantasy, and I hope that they realize sooner rather than later that they should plan their games' systems out early on in development and use it to inform graphical asset creation, and hopefully release something not fundamentally broken in the FIRST release in its first impression. It's costing SE a lot of money and goodwill, and I really hope they figure this out soon and start cultivating or hiring talented game system designers and involve them earlier in the process of making their games.
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May 23, 2015 05:45
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I don't think anyone is going to read that dude.
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May 23, 2015 05:49
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See? I had to go through a disastrous and costly reboot of the point I'm making in order to make it clear. This is what being a Final Fantasy fan does to you.
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May 23, 2015 05:50
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Boten Anna posted:Just as a long time fan, I'm getting exhausted with this pattern and overall it seems to be eroding a lot of the value of Square Enix's IPs, especially Final Fantasy, and I hope that they realize sooner rather than later that they should plan their games' systems out early on in development and use it to inform graphical asset creation, and hopefully release something not fundamentally broken in the FIRST release in its first impression. I'm not sure how you can think that this is anything new. Since the SNES era Final Fantasy has been about presentation over gameplay. FFV is probably the only real exception and they were worried about releasing that overseas because of that. I mean Final Fantasy 6 and 7 both launched with basic gameplay mechanics not working. Like straight-up not working. Both had game-crashing glitches, worthless items, core game elements not working correctly, bad gameplay decisions, piss-poor balance, and tons of other awkward mechanical decisions. They were both carried by high-quality presentation that made up for their bad mechanics. FFVIII is a game that has mechanics that are at best described as a confusing mess where the primary appeal is just how badly you can shatter the game. The most popular Final Fantasy games were the ones that were the most mechanically broken. I mean I like FF6. It's probably my favorite FF game. Holy poo poo is it a mess if you analyze it for any length of time. It does some remarkably cool things but it also has some utterly bizarre loving decisions. I mean Gau alone is like ten pounds of bad design in a five pound bag. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 05:53 on May 23, 2015 |
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May 23, 2015 05:51
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Brother Entropy posted:I wonder if people would have a better outlook on FFXIII if it was harder and you absolutely needed to interact with staggering or the buff/debuff classes to progress, stopping them from giving the bare minimum, taking 50 minutes to slowly whittle down a boss and thinking the problem was the game Yeah! Probably! So how do you do this without changing the mechanics of FFXIII (like adding the wound mechanic in XIII-2) or literally timing the fights with Doom? I don't think you can, because the system is fatally flawed. It's clear that at some point they realized this was a problem or they wouldn't have added the 20m doom timer in the first place.
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May 23, 2015 05:56
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cloud in a dress is the cutest female lead.
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May 23, 2015 05:57
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poo poo not working period in the game mechanics is a time honored FF tradition back to the very first game.
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May 23, 2015 06:00
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Francis posted:Yeah! Probably! Bumping up midgame enemy stats could probably do it, some balance issues doesn't mean the entire game's system is 'fatally flawed'
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May 23, 2015 06:01
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| # ? May 11, 2024 12:48 |
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Francis posted:So how do you do this without changing the mechanics of FFXIII (like adding the wound mechanic in XIII-2) or literally timing the fights with Doom? I don't think you can, because the system is fatally flawed. It's clear that at some point they realized this was a problem or they wouldn't have added the 20m doom timer in the first place. You do know the 20 minute timer is only a specific boss's gimmick, not something present in every fight, right? Different enemies, especially marks, have various methods to punish you for turtling. They power themselves up or change their attack patterns or have an attack pattern designed to outpacing turtling/healing unless they get staggered or heal themselves if given enough time forcing you to go aggressive so they don't heal. There are other factors they could use that I don't think are in FFXIII but are present in other games like Etrian Odyssey such as "go berserker if they detect too many buffs." Also the argument of "players might do something boring, ergo this is a flawed game mechanic" strikes me as pretty silly. You can play Devil May Cry by equipping Ebony and Ivory and standing back to slowly plink bosses to death with low-damage shots but at no point would anyone actually listen to the argument that it means DMC is "fatally flawed" because you can do that since the game absolutely encourages other things even if you can win that way. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 06:08 on May 23, 2015 |
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May 23, 2015 06:04
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