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Avernus posted:I'm actually reading the Siege of Castellax and yeah it's pretty terrible. Far as traitor marines go though, I find the Iron Warriors kinda boring. About the only thing about them I dig is their prevalence of obliterators. the priest/lords/gods is really good poo poo read asap imo
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May 12, 2015 06:37
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I can second Priests/Lords/Gods of Mars being a good read.
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May 12, 2015 16:36
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I dunno, I kinda like the iron warriors' doctrine. They stuck to the original combat techniques more than any other legion, thus giving them a uniqueness all their own as other marines became more specialized. Bitterness is a part of their character, and perturabo is an intriguing figure who unfortunately hasn't been given much focus in the books, and certainly not with any talented writers. There is potential for the iron warriors to maintain their bitterness without devolving into whining about how unfair they got treated. There's a sense of perfectionism about them and their siegecraft, which contrasts nicely with the absolute savagery of their assault force. They literally bottle up their anger so much that they explode and unleash their pent up rage on the enemy once the walls are breached. They just need a good writer to get this stuff across.
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May 12, 2015 19:26
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I don't know - I thought Perturabo was pretty well written by McNeill (?). He is an artist that aspires to build great and beautiful things, but is instead used as a force of destruction. Because he is the ultimate engineer and inherently knows the flaws of any structure, is forced to be the one who destroys, rather than rising above. Granted, ADB could do wonders with the character, but I don't think he has been poorly represented, unlike say, Fulgrim. Iron Warriors are pretty freaking awesome, even though there isn't a whole lot of focus on them. I'm not sure why this is - maybe it's all the chevrons on everything. Chevrons make everything better.
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May 12, 2015 19:37
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And they fight miniature Warhammer battles on tables.
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May 12, 2015 19:49
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Waroduce posted:the priest/lords/gods is really good poo poo read asap imo berzerkmonkey posted:I don't know - I thought Perturabo was pretty well written by McNeill (?). He is an artist that aspires to build great and beautiful things, but is instead used as a force of destruction. Because he is the ultimate engineer and inherently knows the flaws of any structure, is forced to be the one who destroys, rather than rising above. Granted, ADB could do wonders with the character, but I don't think he has been poorly represented, unlike say, Fulgrim. I'd also really like to see what Abnett could do with Iron Warriors. He did manage to make the Ultramarines pretty drat great in the Horus Heresy after all.
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May 12, 2015 20:35
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Groetgaffel posted:Yep. Some of, if not the best of McNiel's best I think. He did, and I think part of what make Abnett and ADB great writers is their ability to both think outside the box and give a human side to what are literally inhuman monsters. Most authors see "Ultramarine" and have a mindset of "robots who follow the flowchart unflinchingly from beginning to end". Abnett did have the luxury of writing them "pre-hardline codex," but he (and ADB) also writes Marines joking around and having trivial, everyday conversations. A "Point-A-to-Point-B" killing machine can't be identified with by a reader, and that's why a lot of the SM fiction is boring. Hell, even McNeil gets it right with his Iron Warriors - in one of the stories, Forrix (I think it is) scales an Imperial Fist berzerkmonkey fucked around with this message at 01:36 on May 13, 2015 |
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May 12, 2015 20:55
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Yeah I've read Priests and Lords, haven't devoured Gods yet. So far it's been awesome, just was curious about what you guys think. I especially like the bits involving that Secutor, I forget his name, and the arco-flagellent. Never encountered either of those things in a novel before. That arco-flagellent is loving terrifying. Also totally agree about Abnett and ADB. I don't think anybody does traitor marines like ADB. Honky Dong Country fucked around with this message at 21:40 on May 12, 2015 |
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May 12, 2015 21:34
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He shoots Imperial Fists in the face, because Ultramarines would clearly be smart enough to wear helmets. =p
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May 12, 2015 22:47
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Uroboros posted:He shoots Imperial Fists in the face, because Ultramarines would clearly be smart enough to wear helmets. =p :  Doh, you are correct. I had Ultras on the brain.
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May 13, 2015 01:35
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still can't believe people don't bring up ferrus' sick ice burn of lorgar whenever primarchs being awesome gets brought up
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May 15, 2015 04:20
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I'm currently listening to The Tranzia Rebellion. Hoo boy, it is not good. Of particular note is the Sister who sounds like she is on the verge of a hysterical breakdown every time she speaks (and comments on how pretty a Chaplain's filigreed jump pack is) and "it is I, AHZEK AHRIMAN!" sounding like a cackling old man.
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May 15, 2015 13:08
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berzerkmonkey posted:I'm currently listening to The Tranzia Rebellion. Hoo boy, it is not good. Of particular note is the Sister who sounds like she is on the verge of a hysterical breakdown every time she speaks (and comments on how pretty a Chaplain's filigreed jump pack is) and "it is I, AHZEK AHRIMAN!" sounding like a cackling old man. Honestly anyone in the SoB is probably on the verge of a serious psychotic break.
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May 15, 2015 15:23
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berzerkmonkey posted:I'm currently listening to The Tranzia Rebellion. Hoo boy, it is not good. Of particular note is the Sister who sounds like she is on the verge of a hysterical breakdown every time she speaks (and comments on how pretty a Chaplain's filigreed jump pack is) and "it is I, AHZEK AHRIMAN!" sounding like a cackling old man. I have a high tolerance for 40k audio stories as I like to listen to them while i'm doing boring work stuff. I got 2/3rds of the way through this and was just 'Nope, I'm done'. It's really bad.
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May 15, 2015 16:02
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Deptfordx posted:I have a high tolerance for 40k audio stories as I like to listen to them while i'm doing boring work stuff. I got 2/3rds of the way through this and was just 'Nope, I'm done'. It's really bad. Yeah, I'm about that far through and I'm not sure I can go on. I was looking at the progress meter thinking "There is no way I've still got 90 minutes to go... Fuuuuuck..."
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May 15, 2015 18:54
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I was wondering exactly what Dan Abnett was bringing out in the future so I looked at his Amazon profile. Apparently he's just written an out and out Avengers Novel. Not graphic, actual prose fiction. http://www.amazon.com/Avengers-Ever...+rule+the+world Found this extract http://blogs.wsj.com/speakeasy/2015/03/30/read-an-excerpt-from-avengers-everybody-wants-to-rule-the-world-exclusive/ which actually seems pretty entertaining. I'm tempted to get this now.
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May 18, 2015 12:56
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Well, his background's in comics so it only makes sense to return to comic book characters regardless of format. I've been looking through some old WDs - I had no idea he'd been writing comics for GW properties for so long. There's ads for old Inferno! magazines that have his comics in them, and the occasional Abnett-penned comic strip finds its way into the WD issues.
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May 18, 2015 15:37
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Finally read through the Ravenor series again after a good number of years. I can say as much I like Eisenhorn and the early Ghosts novels, to me, Abnett's stories just get better and better over time. In fact, I enjoyed Pariah more than I have any of his books so far(along with Know No Fear) and I want the sequel so bad it hurts. I'd give my still beating heart for an HBO adaptation of Eisenhorn > Ravenor > Bequin once the entire tale has been told. I also just reread Unremembered Empire and Salvation's Reach because I felt I needed to refresh my memory on where all these series are at. The little part at the end of Unremembered Empire where he essentially explains how to he had to tie all the Horus Heresy books together just raises my respect for him even more.
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May 19, 2015 02:03
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Uroboros posted:The little part at the end of Unremembered Empire where he essentially explains how to he had to tie all the Horus Heresy books together just raises my respect for him even more. I was with that book until the prophetic visions turned into a drat satellite feed.
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May 19, 2015 03:13
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That book was exceptionally rough. I also really disliked the idea that a single squad of marines posed any kind of real thread to a Primarch in close quarters.
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May 21, 2015 02:52
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Gapey Joe Stalin posted:That book was exceptionally rough. I also really disliked the idea that a single squad of marines posed any kind of real thread to a Primarch in close quarters. Unarmed and unarmored, Kurze didn't seem to have to many problems with the Wolves later on...
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May 21, 2015 06:34
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I think it kind of reflects Primarchs being partly Warp creatures that are essentially self-defining in terms of being killable. Guilliman has always been one of the most down to earth of the Primarchs so I'm somehow more willing to buy someone like him or Dorn getting badly wounded in a confrontation with mere Marines, especially if said Marines have weapons and the element of surprise. Guys like Curze who are pretty bugfuck crazy have an already demonic vision of themselves and so are able to accomplish more superhuman feats. Of course also Primarchs are as strong and tough as the plot requires, they can be badly wounded by bolter fire or largely unphased by having a Titan stamp on them.
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May 21, 2015 11:43
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Going through Brothers of the Snake right now and I was really amazed at how cordial the space marine (Priad) was in the first story. That level of space marine/human interaction doesn't really happen, most of them are really upset/offended that they have to deal with humans at all. I guess the fact that he had only been a Brother for a year helped.
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May 21, 2015 17:24
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Considering how long that's been out I'm not sure spoilers are needed. However that kind of thing in the lore is very chapter specific, some are just like that while some are how you described.
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May 21, 2015 18:10
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Just finished the Emperors Gift and it was decidedly ok.
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May 22, 2015 12:24
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Abyss posted:Going through Brothers of the Snake right now and I was really amazed at how cordial the space marine (Priad) was in the first story. That level of space marine/human interaction doesn't really happen, most of them are really upset/offended that they have to deal with humans at all. I guess the fact that he had only been a Brother for a year helped. I just got the vibe that the brothers of the snake are kinda bros like that.
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May 22, 2015 12:42
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LabiaBadgerTickler posted:Just finished the Emperors Gift and it was decidedly ok. I liked the 2/3s of the book that was actually about the grey knights. The last third was dumb.
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May 22, 2015 21:55
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Azhais posted:I liked the 2/3s of the book that was actually about the grey knights. The last third was dumb. It was meant to be two books, but got chopped into one when they released the Grey Knight codex and basically obsoleted/voided nearly everything ADB had written. And a few things in the codex that he refused to include into the book.
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May 22, 2015 23:29
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Vadoc posted:It was meant to be two books, but got chopped into one when they released the Grey Knight codex and basically obsoleted/voided nearly everything ADB had written. And a few things in the codex that he refused to include into the book. I knew about the new codex voiding a bunch of ADB's progress, but what's the codex stuff he refused to write in? Did GW try to do the "We made a new unit, so make it a part of the story to boost game sales!" thing again? vvv Oh come ON, GW One Legged Cat fucked around with this message at 06:31 on May 24, 2015 |
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May 23, 2015 04:58
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One Legged Cat posted:I knew about the new codex voiding a bunch of ADB's progress, but what's the codex stuff he refused to write in? Did GW try to do the "We made a new unit, so make it a part of the story to boost game sales!" thing again? He refused to put in the Dreadknight.
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May 23, 2015 05:13
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Improbable Lobster posted:He refused to put in the Dreadknight. This only makes ADB more awesome, not less.
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May 23, 2015 06:41
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Gapey Joe Stalin posted:That book was exceptionally rough. I also really disliked the idea that a single squad of marines posed any kind of real thread to a Primarch in close quarters. Long ago when Legion was released, Abnett wrote from the perspective of Some Guardsman watching how Alpha Legionaires fought for the first time - something along the lines of how fast they moved, too fast with every move economically flowing into the other. Abnett's Space Marine / Primarchs sometimes go into the realms of super hero powers but I'm not sure this is a bad thing when 40k fiction is concnered. Anyway, they were alpha legionaries with an absolutely perfect ambush opportunity, and were probably picked for their speed to begin with considering they were up against a primarch as their mission. As good as Primarchs are, the standard Astartes is still the base super human metric in 40k and I like that they were capable of doing what they did in that scene. The worst fight scenes are like the one in Vengeful Spirit where 20 marines die every explosion as they do some retarded book-cover beach invasion. Takes a lot of the magic out of how 'ard marines are supposed to be.
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May 23, 2015 23:43
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Took the thread's advice and started with Eisenhorn. Finished Xenos last night. Loved it. Just adored it. I was onboard from Abnett's wonderful descriptions of Hubris. The escalating tension and expanding scope of the story was superb. (I'm also reading the overrated Shovel Ready, and Adam Sternbergh could use a few tutorials from Abnett on story construction). Now I'm onto the short story Missing In Action, which so far seems like Abnett has thrown Eisenhorn into MegaCity One. It's glorious.
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May 24, 2015 00:23
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Gapey Joe Stalin posted:That book was exceptionally rough. I also really disliked the idea that a single squad of marines posed any kind of real thread to a Primarch in close quarters. I dunno; The point is to show how much preparedness impacts the outcome (Which is Guilliman's thing, after all) - Armed and armoured, Guilliman is more than a match for 10 Astartes on a battlefield. In an assassination situation, with 10 armoured Marines with Bolters vs an unarmed Primarch, their odds start to look pretty good. If anything, it plays up their Demigod status, because in that situation anything else is a guaranteed, 100% kill. The very fact it's an uncertain outcome tells you something about how ridiculously difficult to kill a Primarch is meant to be.
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May 24, 2015 09:48
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Shockeh posted:I dunno; The point is to show how much preparedness impacts the outcome (Which is Guilliman's thing, after all) - Armed and armoured, Guilliman is more than a match for 10 Astartes on a battlefield. In an assassination situation, with 10 armoured Marines with Bolters vs an unarmed Primarch, their odds start to look pretty good. If anything, it plays up their Demigod status, because in that situation anything else is a guaranteed, 100% kill. The very fact it's an uncertain outcome tells you something about how ridiculously difficult to kill a Primarch is meant to be. In a universe where primarchs can survive point blank nova cannon blasts from a titan, getting almost capped by a couple of space marines with bolters makes Guilliman look weak not badass.
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May 24, 2015 20:48
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Wax Dynasty posted:In a universe where primarchs can survive point blank nova cannon blasts from a titan, getting almost capped by a couple of space marines with bolters makes Guilliman look weak not badass. Welllll to his credit, Guilliman didn't have sorcerous reality-bending powers afforded to him as the chosen herald of the Dark Gods like his fuckup brother did. I think that's a pretty good example of the tilt of power when it comes to Chaos vs. The Imperium, too. Individually, the Chaos dudes are more outright powerful and can mess around with reality, but have trouble marching in a straight line for ten feet without half the army leaving to pursue their own goals or stab the others in the back. The Imperium might just have plain old guns and guts to rely on, but they have the advantage of coherent tactics and soldiers that are generally shot for even having thoughts about deviating from the plan. One Legged Cat fucked around with this message at 21:50 on May 24, 2015 |
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May 24, 2015 21:47
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In terms of this timeframe and marines, the Ultrasmurfs get a dressing down and a chance to explain themselves if they deviate from the plan. So far the only 30k instance I can think of where someone got a bollocking for thinking for themselves it was that Sgt. that was running hypotheticals on attacking other Space Marines. Also as I said, it plays into the power of the Primarchs being at least partially based on their knowledge of their own body. The Chaos Primarchs have far more of an inkling of what they are capable of. They've encountered Warp creatures and had whispers of unholy powers, etc. They've had a chance to stretch their immaterial muscles so to speak, something I don't think many of the Loyalist primarchs have really done. Also Guilliman is really the most human of the Primarchs from everything we've seen, he's in some ways limited by that, he's superhuman in his own mind not an actual demi-god the way someone like Fulgrim considers himself. We've seen that pretty much the only Primarch deaths have been at the hands of equally powerful beings or have been cases where they've accepted death. For all we know if the Alpha Legionnaires had succeeded Gulliman would have just continued fighting despite having limbs cleaved off and throttled the last of them with his penis then taken two weeks to recover from his wounds. Of course having that kind of explicit plot armour would also totally ruin any tension in any battle with a Primarch ever again, I think Abnett did a good job of actually making the assassination seem threatening. As others have said that was pretty much a perfect scenario for the assassins too. Primarchs are meant to be as much above Marines as Marines are above humans, would you believe a scene with 10 stormtroopers assasinating a single Marine caught unawares and unarmed?
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May 25, 2015 02:34
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Wax Dynasty posted:In a universe where primarchs can survive point blank nova cannon blasts from a titan, getting almost capped by a couple of space marines with bolters makes Guilliman look weak not badass. Well, he thinks he was almost capped. If he is in fact unkillable without warp magic he wouldn't even realize it, he'd just assume he was wounded but got lucky every time since he survives every time.
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May 25, 2015 06:06
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My only complaint about that scene is it started going in a really interesting direction of Guilliman hypothesizing that his marines were acting more like the 40k marines we know; being hypervigilant and on the edge of violence, and it being the result of them being constantly at war and taking its psychological toll even on space marines, then it went in the more mundane direction of the reason they seemed like a squad deep in emeny territory about to attack someone was because they were a squad deep in enemy territory about to attack someone. It wasn't bad, just less interesting.
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May 25, 2015 06:09
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Yeah, that part was a little disappointing in a 'ooh, they're going to humanise Marines and maybe make a point about human frai... Nope bolter's be porning,' kind of way. That said it's a little difficult to know where you'd go with that as a plot point. The difficulty of reintegrating Marines who have been engaged in constant war with their brothers into the existing Legion? The differing effects on parts of the Legion that have faced different brother Legions and the psychologial impact helping forment the idea of the Chapter division? Really most of the interesting possibilities don't sell minis and probably won't captivate what GW thinks of as their main demographic.
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May 25, 2015 13:41
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