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gourdcaptain posted:Seriously, how would it be dangerous to discuss that?
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May 27, 2015 18:18
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I thought the small races were actually really good this time around, what with small doing almost nothing mechanically speaking? And Halflings being immune to rolling 1s too.
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May 27, 2015 18:18
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Small characters can't use the best martial weapons and have a 25 foot movement speed. This makes them worse at being martial characters for no real reason other than VERISIMILITUDE.
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May 27, 2015 18:31
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The worst of the worst, one could say.
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May 27, 2015 18:46
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NameHurtBrain posted:Small characters can't use the best martial weapons and have a 25 foot movement speed. This makes them worse at being martial characters for no real reason other than VERISIMILITUDE. Oh dear, they'll have to be wizards instead!
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May 27, 2015 18:47
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mastershakeman posted:Shouldn't small races be better because it's less likely they're used as martial characters? 
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May 27, 2015 18:49
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I'm listening to the PA podcasts about NEXT and they all sound so terribly bored with it.
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May 27, 2015 18:59
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Strength of Many posted:I'm listening to the PA podcasts about NEXT and they all sound so terribly bored with it. Mearls trying to explain to Krahulik (who had only ever played 4th edition) why 5e was good and warlords are bad is basically the Dukakis in a tank helmet moment of 5e development.
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May 27, 2015 19:08
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gourdcaptain posted:Look, if we discussed why they're considered the worst options, we'd undo the fourth seal on an elder god by speaking forbidden knowledge, and you don't want us to do that, do you? Because then they'd have to admit that they made them bad on purpose.
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May 27, 2015 19:08
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theironjef posted:Mearls trying to explain to Krahulik (who had only ever played 4th edition) why 5e was good and warlords are bad is basically the Dukakis in a tank helmet moment of 5e development. At some point doesn't Kurtz just stop paying attention entirely and start drawing doodles?
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May 27, 2015 19:18
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He does. The PA guys and Kurtz at least feign being excited, and it's hard to tell without some visual cues or something if they're putting on a show or if they really are just awkward dorks about things they're legitimately excited about. Because they are awkward dorks.
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May 27, 2015 19:56
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mastershakeman posted:Shouldn't small races be better because it's less likely they're used as martial characters? It's weird, but outside of TG (for at least the other forums I frequent), there seems to be some perception that the Fighter/martial classes aren't actually that weak http://ggnorecast.blogspot.com/2015/05/shocking-fighter-optimization.html http://hackslashmaster.blogspot.com/2015/05/on-defining-characteristic-of-5th.html quote:I run 5e every week for encounters play, and I can say that I've not seen the fighter overshadowed by any other class in the game. At times, the opposite. The 5e fighter is a punisher, in addition to being a meat shield, and at times the fighter's attacks are way more dependable than a spell caster's spells, due to the prevalence of saving throws for spells that used to just happen without a save in older versions of DnD. The battle master subclass can potentially take control of the battlefield in ways similar to spell casters, like the warlord in 4e (one of only a couple things I liked in 4e), so there's plenty for fighters to play with. quote:I was happy to see a section in the new survey asking about confusing, underpowered, and overpowered spells. I had to report my favorite spell, though. An Eldritch Knight with Haste can draw+throw a net with the Haste action, then get use the benefits of Crossbow Expert and Sharpshooter to deal incredible, accurate damage with a hand crossbow. Likewise, an Arcane Trickster can Haste action shoot+Sneak Attack, then use Ready to get Sneak Attack damage all over again on the next turn. quote:When most creatures don't have an AC of greater than 14, that +2 is a huge impact (especially in the early levels where rolling has the largest impact). That's nice in general, but once you combine that with sharpshooter, you are now getting +10 flat damage at effectively a -3 penalty. When a fighter shoots 4-8 times a turn with action surge, it's stupid damage.
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May 27, 2015 19:59
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The first one is pretty easy to explain: if the person hated 4E, they probably didn't play much of it, so their opinion on class power levels is more likely being compared to 3.X. Fighters in 5E are arguably comparatively stronger due to the fact that spellcasters aren't as incredibly brokenly overpowered as they were in 3.X*. So they "feel" stronger!  The second one is just bizarre. Throw nets, guys! * Yet.
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May 27, 2015 20:03
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Kurieg posted:At some point doesn't Kurtz just stop paying attention entirely and start drawing doodles? Yeah, I believe because his character was the only one that didn't suck to try and rebuild as a 5e character. Dwarf, Fighter, done. Then look over to Jerry, who I think was playing a warlock or something, and time to start hemming and hawing about how we maybe did this too early and "warlocks are really just wizards anyway" and so on.
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May 27, 2015 20:04
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Kurieg posted:At some point doesn't Kurtz just stop paying attention entirely and start drawing doodles?  I've said it before, but that body language is a thing to behold.
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May 27, 2015 20:18
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Ah, this old chestnut again. I'll just quote myself from 100-odd pages ago.thespaceinvader posted:I guarantee it was worse the first time round. I think it was that podcast that basically killed any hope I had for 5e being a game I had any interest in playing. And yes, I believe one of them did start doodling around when he was told that there was basically no way to recreate his 4e toon in 5e.
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May 27, 2015 20:25
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My GOD, that rogue can use their only defining class feature one turn, and then - get this - they can do it the next turn! Broke as gently caress
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May 27, 2015 20:26
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I like how fighters getting 4 attacks is treated as this cool & great thing that doesn't take 20 levels to get to.
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May 27, 2015 20:31
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Generic Octopus posted:I like how fighters getting 4 attacks is treated as this cool & great thing that doesn't take 20 levels to get to. It's kind of funny how in most any other game getting to break the action economy and make multiple attacks is generally considered to be some incredibly powerful stuff, often verging on the brokenly good side of things, but in Next and 3.X it's like yeah okay, I guess that's cool if you're one of those classes stuck dicking around with attacks and hitpoints. Even in D&D4E the ability to make multiple attacks in a turn (such as Minor Action attacks) was a pretty big deal and highly sought after if you could get it. It takes some talent to turn "you get to make multiple attacks!" into a consolation prize, but there you go.
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May 27, 2015 20:45
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Tangentially relating to healing , out of curiosity, in od&d, treasure for wizards consisted of spells while martials got weapons and armor. What about clerics?
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May 27, 2015 20:48
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mastershakeman posted:Tangentially relating to healing , out of curiosity, in od&d, treasure for wizards consisted of spells while martials got weapons and armor. What about clerics? Pretty much everybody else's sloppy seconds. There were a couple of cleric-specific items (Mace of Disruption is probably the most famous).
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May 27, 2015 20:49
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Kai Tave posted:It's kind of funny how in most any other game getting to break the action economy and make multiple attacks is generally considered to be some incredibly powerful stuff, often verging on the brokenly good side of things, but in Next and 3.X it's like yeah okay, I guess that's cool if you're one of those classes stuck dicking around with attacks and hitpoints. Even in D&D4E the ability to make multiple attacks in a turn (such as Minor Action attacks) was a pretty big deal and highly sought after if you could get it. It takes some talent to turn "you get to make multiple attacks!" into a consolation prize, but there you go. Iterative attacks were only good when you could use them to abuse spells that gave you bonus damage for a round. Or when you were using something like Eldritch Glaive where all of your attacks were touch attacks anyway. Kurieg fucked around with this message at 20:54 on May 27, 2015 |
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May 27, 2015 20:52
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mastershakeman posted:Tangentially relating to healing , out of curiosity, in od&d, treasure for wizards consisted of spells while martials got weapons and armor. What about clerics? Clerics could wear armor, but couldn't use any bladed weapons, so supposedly the trade-off was that you had Divine spells, but you could never get to use the strongest weapons, which were always (intelligent) swords.
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May 27, 2015 20:54
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MonsieurChoc posted:I thought the small races were actually really good this time around, what with small doing almost nothing mechanically speaking? And Halflings being immune to rolling 1s too. Well, let's look at this objectively: Ability Score: +2 INT skews heavily towards one Class; it might do that class very well, but that means at best you're looking at 1 Gnome per party Size: You can't use Heavy Weapons. Speed: 25ft sucks, you'll probably want to stay at range because right out the gate, closing into melee is harder for you Darkvision: Yay! Gnome Cunning: INT and CHA are known to be uncommon Saves, but WIS is definitely not bad to have Advantage on. Gnomes are at +2 INT, so they're basically Wizard-only (until we get Psionics, or something). You could conceivably go with an Eldritch Knight or Arcane Trickster, but a) why? and b) that sorta narrows it down to Forest Gnome, since you want the +1 DEX if you have any designs on using weapons. Forest Gnome also gets Minor Illusion for free; you were probably going to be a caster anyway so this grants you a little bit more freedom in picking cantrips. Speak With Small Beasts is one of those nice things to have if/when it ever comes up; very DM- or campaign-dependent. Who even knows if the small beasts have anything useful to tell you? Rock Gnome gets +1 CON, which is alright since basically every class needs CON, but this also effectively disqualifies you from any weapon-using class... unless you can reliably get Advantage. In that case, you're probably looking at Barbarian, but oh wait, you can't use heavy weapons. Artificer's Lore is basically a situational Skill Expertise in History, which is nice; it probably frees up a Skill Proficiency for you. Tinker basically give you something resembling your typical non-damaging cantrip, in the form of a minion. Also, a tool proficiency, which are this edition's Profession skills, basically. Personally, none of this is blowing my doors off, particularly considering how heavily it points towards one class option. Edit: Also, High Elves exist, and they're pretty competitive for the same niche as Rock Gnomes, AFAICT. So, Halflings Ability Score: +2 DEX, this points all over the place, sorta (because DEX is the god-stat) Size: You can't use Heavy Weapons. Speed: 25ft sucks, you'll probably want to stay at range because right out the gate, closing into melee is harder for you No Darkvision: get hosed Lucky: this turns a critical fail into a reroll. So 5% of the time, it does something; this is a completely random occurrence, and you have no agency over it. Brave: Advantage on saves vs. Frightened, a condition which is basically Disdvantage on checks and attack rolls, and limits where you can move. So if you're a lazer class, you probably don't care. Halfling Nimbleness: you can move through the spaces of large creatures. So either you're supposed to be able to position perfectly when you're in melee or... well, it doesn't say you don't provoke when you try and move out of melee. So this thing is kinda useless, and points in the opposite direction of Brave. Lightfoot gets +1 CHA: so CHA classes puts us into Bard/Sorcerer/Warlock/Paladin. If you have any intentions of being a MC paladin, you want STR instead of DEX. The other classes still seem workable. Naturally Stealthy seems to either imply that you're supposed to hide behind teammates, or hide in the middle of a melee. Since Hide is an Action, it's starting to point towards Rogue, if you want to get any actual use out of this feature  . Otherwise, you can just be a spellcaster and turn invisible when you really need to.Stout: Congratulations, you're a DEX dwarf, but without all of their actually-good racial features. Just be a dwarf. So you're a race that has effectively only 1 subrace and Normal vision; it's a pigeon-holed version of humans, which I guess was the goal all along..?  You can basically either be a Rogue, or else a CHA-caster with good AC. Not that those are necessarily bad options, it's just very limiting and your racial features aren't on par with other races. P.d0t fucked around with this message at 22:04 on May 27, 2015 |
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May 27, 2015 21:06
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Just be an Elf.
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May 27, 2015 21:30
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goatface posted:Just be an Elf. D&D NEXT: Just be an Elf.
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May 27, 2015 21:38
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gradenko_2000 posted:Clerics could wear armor, but couldn't use any bladed weapons, so supposedly the trade-off was that you had Divine spells, but you could never get to use the strongest weapons, which were always (intelligent) swords. To be fair it WAS an actual trade off when the blunt weapons consistently had the worst damage stats, and clerics missed out on Fighter HP, eventual saves, and weapon mastery. Clerics were limited to slings which attacked once per round; bows started off at 2-3 attacks every turn. Maces weren't poo poo compared to a greatsword. Then in 3e Fighters have some of the worst saves, everyone gets the constitution bonus to health, weapon differences are heavily lowered, and weapon master goes from "gain a full extra attack, strike first in combat, gain a huge boost to attack and damage, and your weapon gets a full dice upgrade" to "+2 attack, +3 damage" It's sincerely amazing how much 3e despised fighters.
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May 27, 2015 21:58
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I thought Halflings made the best Monks. Guess I was wrong.
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May 27, 2015 22:32
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The best race is usually variant human, with half-elf a close second if you don't need any feats.
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May 27, 2015 22:35
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Generic Octopus posted:I like how fighters getting 4 attacks is treated as this cool & great thing that doesn't take 20 levels to get to.
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May 27, 2015 22:42
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Dick Burglar posted:The best race is usually variant human, with half-elf a close second if you don't need any feats. Half-Elf easily moves into first, if your class requires CHA. Feats are kind of a mixed bag; like, if a feat completely defines your whole build then yeah, having it from level 1 is great.
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May 27, 2015 22:48
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May I add a side to the Death to Ability Scores claim? Death to Racial Stat Bonuses. Sure, I get a half-orc tends to be stronger. A gnome tends to be smarter. But if they are meant to be player characters, and have free will, it just seems limiting. Like gender-based stats, it seems a bit silly to keep these. Why can't my Half-Orc study hard to become smarter than the smartest gnome? Like, it makes a physical amount of sense that the strongest gnome can't be stronger than the strongest Half-Orc. But here's the thing: heroes are exceptional. Your lady gnome barbarian is a special snowflake like Drizz't. She defies physics with her strength when she swings a greatsword twice her size at the dragon. She's as fast as a person twice her size because she's trained to make up the difference. Are you saying Ms. Ragegnome Swordsalot has no place in fantasy, and we should punish the player for not just choosing Half-Orc? 5E's design really seems to be focused on being the most D&D of D&D to the point of going against traditional roles is harder. Half-Orc Barbarians, Human Fighters, Dwarf Clerics, and Gnome Wizards - this apparently is what we're supposed to want to play.
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May 27, 2015 23:11
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Counter-point: Reskin Everything™
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May 27, 2015 23:14
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I still think the best way to express special differences is through abilities rather then blunt stat modifiers.
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May 27, 2015 23:23
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The FFG star wars and wfrp games give you your racial modifiers before you add your stats. The equivalent in D&D 5e would be an elf starting with 12 dex, and so only requiring 5 points to reach 15, but still having the same starting cap of 15 as everyone else. Though you'd probably raise the starting cap to 16 or whatever.
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May 27, 2015 23:25
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If it were being the most groggy dnd you'd be unable to be a half orc wizard, period.
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May 27, 2015 23:31
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Tunicate posted:If it were being the most groggy dnd you'd be unable to be a half orc wizard, period. Luckily, I'm a half-orc wizard in real life, so I have no need to play a game pretending to be one.
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May 27, 2015 23:36
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gradenko_2000 posted:Those loving quotes Sleep and Color Spray both say 'Hi'. The last two times I played 5e with a friend, we both made variations of Cleric/Druid and Wizard tag teams and basically t-bagged every fight with the ol' one-two punch of proper layered spell application. The only time we got showed up was when a Bard beat us in initiative order and got to cast Sleep, etc, before we could. On the other side of that party equation, was a Rogue and a Ranger trying (and failing) to shoot things from cover that were also in cover ('Enjoy your Disadvantage, suckers!') Where was I going with this? Oh, yeah. gently caress 5e. Strength of Many fucked around with this message at 00:43 on May 28, 2015 |
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May 28, 2015 00:40
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If you're following DMG guidelines on how to build poo poo, everything has a billion HP so sleep doesn't achieve much. Nor does anything else mind.
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May 28, 2015 00:49
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goatface posted:If you're following DMG guidelines on how to build poo poo, everything has a billion HP so sleep doesn't achieve much. Nor does anything else mind. At starting level the average douchebag kobold has around 5 HP, on average rolls 5d8 will net you 22-23 hitpoints, so that's the entirety of a kobold centric encounter (4 Kobolds for a 'medium' encounter.) If its 1+ CR 1/2 creatures that's still one eating floor. Meanwhile, the Fighter................................ walks up and kills one kobold, or maybe does a third or half the HP on a Scout or equivalent on a good roll. edit: i'm ignoring obvious gently caress ups like the Thug being CR 1/2 when its clearly loving not. edit2: Using optional rules in the DMG seems very disingenuous in a climate where most people can and will use the Monster Manual and whatever their module adventures provide. 'These house rules make that spell less powerful, ergo its not an issue!' is a poor fix to anything at all. I could say that about anything in this trainwreck of a game. It doesn't change the fact that they are powerful starting level options and the classes never stop receiving powerful options throughout a campaign. Strength of Many fucked around with this message at 01:03 on May 28, 2015 |
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May 28, 2015 00:54
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