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ImpAtom posted:I think it gets a lot of positive attention because it does have some really strong moments (Harry and Michael) and also is just a genuine return to positive and somewhat light action after the last 3/4 books being "Harry's life is goddamn suffering and everything is lovely for everyone." It's the first book since pre-Turncoat where Harry and friends don't get completely poo poo on with a Pyrrhic victory. I suspect once we get a few books down the line it'll be remembered a bit less positively but for the moment it is "Harry Dresden Actually Wins" which I think is something people really were looking for. Well it's less Pyrrhic. Murphy got hosed up, after all.
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May 26, 2015 16:47
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Rygar201 posted:Well it's less Pyrrhic. Murphy got hosed up, after all. At this point "The universe shits on Karren Murphy basically nonstop" is just sort of a fact of life. I kind of wonder if Butcher realizes just how much she gets crapped on. She can't go a goddamn book without something terrible happening to her.
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May 26, 2015 16:54
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fruit loop posted:That part was the worst. It ruined the book for me. That part was AWESOME! It made me re-read the book to figure it out.
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May 26, 2015 17:37
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Someone remind me: when he said "Wizard", did that mean he was lying, or telling the truth? I can't recall off-hand and I'm about to re-read Skin Game.
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May 26, 2015 17:46
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ImpAtom posted:At this point "The universe shits on Karren Murphy basically nonstop" is just sort of a fact of life. I kind of wonder if Butcher realizes just how much she gets crapped on. She can't go a goddamn book without something terrible happening to her. Murphy speculation (spoiled for the newbie reading): Which is why I'm thinking it's likely she'll take up a coin. There's going to be a payoff to all the poo poo she's gone through. She's the only straight vanilla mortal left in the game, and she's woefully outclassed by all the supernatural players at this point, and only getting older and more damaged. I can see her taking up a coin despite knowing what they mean in much the same way Sanya was originally supposed to. To protect Chicago at whatever the cost, to try and keep that edge. Dresden constantly point out that Murphy is the only one out of SI that knows the level of poo poo that is out there and gets it, so it's not a hard leap from "has dealt with it for years" > "my understanding and experience makes me strong enough to put up a fight and find a balance with its influence". Otherwise, I don't see much of an arc for her except straight up dying to kick off something terrible in Harry's life.
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May 26, 2015 17:47
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Mortanis posted:This right here. If you look at something like Ocean's Eleven of The Italian Job, it's about getting your team of specialists together with unique skills. poo poo goes entirely wrong and you apply your team's skills to the new challenge, but then the readers/viewers discover that poo poo loving up was according to plan and that the unique skills play right into that but in a totally new way. Probably because the non-heist parts were pretty good and it had good dialogue between Harry and the antagonist. Overall though it was fun but not really earthshaking
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May 26, 2015 18:08
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ImpAtom posted:Because "Skin Game is filler" is pretty goddamn silly Given what Uriel does on the day-to-day of his job, and given that he's supposedly the angel responsible for the plagues of Egypt, I seriously doubt that particular bit is going to matter that much beyond being an unpleasant memory for him to have. Also, the idea that Murphy would ever take up a coin is one of the dumbest bits of speculation I've ever read.
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May 26, 2015 20:01
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You guys weren't kidding about Murphy in Fool Moon. Holy poo poo is she annoying in this. Still enjoying it so far, but I can't wait to not hate her.
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May 26, 2015 21:40
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Norns posted:You guys weren't kidding about Murphy in Fool Moon. Holy poo poo is she annoying in this. She is 100% in the right throughout Fool Moon, based on the knowledge she has available to her. You'll see her soften up a lot once she realizes what Dresden really does. But in Fool Moon, Harry looks shady as all hell to anyone (namely himself and us, the readers) not in the know. So Murphy and everyone else think he's the bad guy. Still, we read through Harry's eyes and all we see is this stubborn roadblock of a cop who just won't get off his case.
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May 26, 2015 22:23
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Yeah, I never really got people having an issue with how Murphy behaves in Fool Moon. Dresden is withholding information in a murder investigation and from her perspective at the time it directly led to a death (Kim). All of her actions are pretty drat rational for someone without the narrator's PoV.
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May 27, 2015 08:43
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Mortanis posted:Murphy speculation (spoiled for the newbie reading): Which is why I'm thinking it's likely she'll take up a coin. There's going to be a payoff to all the poo poo she's gone through. She's the only straight vanilla mortal left in the game, and she's woefully outclassed by all the supernatural players at this point, and only getting older and more damaged. I can see her taking up a coin despite knowing what they mean in much the same way Sanya was originally supposed to. To protect Chicago at whatever the cost, to try and keep that edge. Dresden constantly point out that Murphy is the only one out of SI that knows the level of poo poo that is out there and gets it, so it's not a hard leap from "has dealt with it for years" > "my understanding and experience makes me strong enough to put up a fight and find a balance with its influence". I don't care which of Peter or Harry you like better, but don't for a goddamn second pretend that this majestic piece of vanilla human ingenuity isn't a thing that could happen. 
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May 27, 2015 12:48
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The Nightingale would turn that into scrap before it got to do that.
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May 27, 2015 13:25
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Wade Wilson posted:The Nightingale would turn that into scrap before it got to do that. But its raining and nightingale can't cast magic because dresden rules. Or maybe a dinosaur eats nightingale. Character battles are dumb.
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May 27, 2015 18:18
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builds character posted:I don't care which of Peter or Harry you like better, but don't for a goddamn second pretend that this majestic piece of vanilla human ingenuity isn't a thing that could happen. That example is the main reason dresden-verse supernaturals stay hidden. Harry even says it explicitly in one of the early books, none of the accords participants wants the full might of the human race bearing down on them.
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May 27, 2015 18:23
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Wade Wilson posted:Given what Uriel does on the day-to-day of his job, and given that he's supposedly the angel responsible for the plagues of Egypt, I seriously doubt that particular bit is going to matter that much beyond being an unpleasant memory for him to have. Uriel gave up everything that made him an angel and murdered a man of his own free will. It's entirely possible it won't come into play but "killing under God's orders as he was created to" and "choosing to take a life as effectively a mortal" are two very different things in the Dresden cosmology. Choice is everything. Nemesis is a threat because it gives supernatural beings choice.
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May 27, 2015 18:26
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Murphy brings something to the table that I don't think any of Harry's other allies (with the exception of Marcone, and calling him an ally is at best a stretch) have. Leadership ability, specifically the ability to coordinate against both mortal and supernatural threats. She ran SI for years, and ran it effectively, and she organized Chicago's defense against the Fomor and others while Harry was away. She's a tactical thinker, and she knows how to work with people, both qualities in which Harry lags behind. She's going to be a general.
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May 27, 2015 18:48
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Exmond posted:But its raining and nightingale can't cast magic because dresden rules. Or maybe a dinosaur eats nightingale. Character battles are dumb. My post was in response to a picture of a bombing run, not a character in the Dresden files. ImpAtom posted:
Wrong. Nemesis isn't a threat because it gives supernatural beings choice. That's dumb. In-book exposition also states that Nemesis is a threat because it turns things against their nature; and also the whole "working to breach the Outer Gates" thing.
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May 27, 2015 19:06
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Wade Wilson posted:Wrong. Nemesis isn't a threat because it gives supernatural beings choice. That's dumb. In-book exposition also states that Nemesis is a threat because it turns things against their nature; and also the whole "working to breach the Outer Gates" thing. Nemesis giving supernatural beings choice and freedom is part of that. One of the defining difference between mortals and supernatural beings is that. Part of breaking down the order is changing that. Like this isn't even subtext. It's stated onscreen multiple times. It lets them do things they shouldn't be able to do. Like I'm sorry, Dresden Files puts such a tremendously huge emphasis on free will and choice that trying to go "no, see, it isn't important" strikes me as silly. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 19:19 on May 27, 2015 |
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May 27, 2015 19:17
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Uriel was mortal when he made his choice. It's been established that mortals van become immortal and not have anything bad happen to them because of their previous free will (most notably Mab).
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May 27, 2015 19:39
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ImpAtom posted:Nemesis giving supernatural beings choice and freedom is part of that. One of the defining difference between mortals and supernatural beings is that. Part of breaking down the order is changing that. Like this isn't even subtext. It's stated onscreen multiple times. It lets them do things they shouldn't be able to do. You're missing the point where giving something free will is not a threatening thing to do in itself. Also, Nemesis doesn't give supernatural beings choice and freedom, in the case of Maeve it gave her the ability to lie and she used it to lie to herself.
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May 27, 2015 19:40
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I think Murphy is probably going to be the last-mortal-standing when it comes to Harry's friends. She's never really needed powers to be a badass. The only thing I think might eventually come around is that when/if she's finally KIA or about to be, Odin offers her a job as a Valkyrie. Although I heard something about that already being turned down? I forget. Uriel on the other hand, I felt like the whole killing of a mortal thing might be very significant but it could have just been action-scene stuff too. It FELT significant to me, actually everything in Skin Game involving Uriel felt super significant. You don't just park an archangel on scene like that for laughs.
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May 27, 2015 20:26
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How exactly does Uriel choose to give up his mantle? He's bound to do his job and the will of the White God. Lash had said previously that one of the Fallen's big things was being bound to another's will when she was making that point to Dresden. Supernatural beings can't act outside their nature. Uriel can't do anything but what the White God wills. Harry even has that discussion with the angel of death in Ghost Story about how nothing can be done except what God wants regarding saving Father Forthill. So, how can Uriel just choose to give up his mantle unless it was willed by the White God?
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May 27, 2015 21:22
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ImpAtom posted:
I have a long-running theory that The White God hasn't been heard from in a long time and the archangels are just going about performing their standing orders to the best of their ability. I suspect it's getting harder and harder for them to do this, too, given the changing state of the world and the war against the outside. If anyone is the type to start thinking outside the box for solutions and bending the rules, it's the wet-works guy: Uriel. This is also the kind of thing that can come back to burn him, and he knows it. I suspect that this scene was a test of the waters. He violated a commandment as a mortal (bending the rules) and seeing if he gets called up to have his wrists slapped by the big man. He's not technically violating an order he was given, and he's not abusing his stature as an angel, so he's bending the rules. I further suspect that he didn't get the call into the boss's office, and he's probably more worried than ever about the state of things as a result. Of course, this is all my head-canon, currently, so YMMV. Blasphemeral fucked around with this message at 22:19 on May 27, 2015 |
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May 27, 2015 21:39
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The real question is if Michael got some complimentary peanuts from his time on the plane.
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May 27, 2015 21:44
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Of course Uriel is also directly compared to the Blackstaff who explicitly doesn't have to follow the rules so maybe the rules just don't apply to him.
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May 27, 2015 22:13
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Tunicate posted:The real question is if Michael got some complimentary peanuts from his time on the plane. Of course he did. If, by peanuts, you mean diamonds.
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May 27, 2015 22:19
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Wade Wilson posted:The Nightingale would turn that into scrap before it got to do that. That's why that beautiful piece of engineered airborne death comes equipped with one of these babies:  Nightingale is from the Victorian era of broughams and pip pip cheerio rule Britannia what. His tiny simian noodle can't comprehend 4,200 rounds of hot liquid death spraying in from a mile away. MOD EDIT: don't break tables guys thanks Somebody fucked around with this message at 13:05 on May 28, 2015 |
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May 28, 2015 02:23
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Stop this. I'm trying to hold off on buying DCS A10c until it goes on sale and you're not helping dammit. 
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May 28, 2015 02:27
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builds character posted:That's why that beautiful piece of engineered airborne death comes equipped with one of these babies: He fought in WWII and destroyed two Tigers, by himself. I think he can comprehend "planes can shoot at me, possibly from a mile away". Granted, he may not be able to see that cannon from a mile away, but if he knows it's out there the fight will just be who kills who first.
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May 28, 2015 03:09
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darthbob88 posted:He fought in WWII and destroyed two Tigers, by himself. I think he can comprehend "planes can shoot at me, possibly from a mile away". Granted, he may not be able to see that cannon from a mile away, but if he knows it's out there the fight will just be who kills who first. You can certainly hear that plane flying nearby, whether it's shooting or not.
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May 28, 2015 03:31
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darthbob88 posted:He fought in WWII and destroyed two Tigers, by himself. I think he can comprehend "planes can shoot at me, possibly from a mile away". Granted, he may not be able to see that cannon from a mile away, but if he knows it's out there the fight will just be who kills who first. Sure, he can comprehend it but it's like a deer getting hit by a semi. The deer knows that monstrous steel beast churning toward it is full of murder and it better get the gently caress out of the way, the deer just can't quite understand that something actually goes that fast. It's brain is designed to run away from wolves and bone Bambi's mom, not dodge hurtling iron horses going 65 glorious miles per hour through America's heartland. Same thing with Nightingale. He still thinks dirigibles should be a thing. Fat lot of good that's going to do when almost two tons of wizard piercing bullets are spraying him and anything within 20 feet of him (sorry tiny ghost buster dog, this is the end for you too). "Oh say, what's that? I hear a- oh god my soft wizarding bits have been burst apart by a device not invented in the steam age of my youth. Woe is me." But let's suppose, for the sake of argument he gets a shot or two in. What then? Nothing, that's what. This menacing wizard-fucker is built to withstand machine gun and anti aircraft fire. It's just a giant gun with tiny wings, huge engines and an armored pilot's cockpit because somebody has to pull the trigger. No, you keep your gentleman wizards and your goony white knights. Me, I'm sticking with America.  MOD EDIT: Seriously, don't break tables. Use timg. Somebody fucked around with this message at 13:13 on May 28, 2015 |
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May 28, 2015 03:51
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Jesus Christ, use the loving timg tag you goddamn nerd.
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May 28, 2015 03:59
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Can you PLEASE use [timg] instead of [img] tags you neanderthal? Why are you even linking them?
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May 28, 2015 03:59
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Or even stop talking about boring war poo poo in the urban fantasy thread, that's an option too
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May 28, 2015 04:08
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You guys have summoned the mil wargnards to the thread.Shame on you. Shame on all of you. Drifter fucked around with this message at 05:24 on May 28, 2015 |
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May 28, 2015 05:21
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Drifter posted:You guys have summoned the mil dustoff and nuke the thread from orbit, only way to be sure.
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May 28, 2015 05:30
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What was that quasi-urban fantasy thing from a few years back where Bush invaded hell? I remember it getting mocked in LF, it was like mixing a David Weber power fantasy with a Tom Clancy handbook with the most smug "I'm too smart for religion" crap I've seen in a while. It was sucking David Petraeus' dick harder than Paula Broadwell by having him beat hell, while at the same time stroking its own ego about how hell was bronze age savages and military hardware was so Gosh darn awesome in its ability to blindly kill civilians.
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May 28, 2015 06:04
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Fried Chicken posted:What was that quasi-urban fantasy thing from a few years back where Bush invaded hell? I remember it getting mocked in LF, it was like mixing a David Weber power fantasy with a Tom Clancy handbook with the most smug "I'm too smart for religion" crap I've seen in a while. It was sucking David Petraeus' dick harder than Paula Broadwell by having him beat hell, while at the same time stroking its own ego about how hell was bronze age savages and military hardware was so Gosh darn awesome in its ability to blindly kill civilians. That sounds like John Ringo's "Through the Looking Glass" books. Oh. John Ringo. No.
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May 28, 2015 06:25
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I'd like a link to it getting mocked in LF, but I'm pretty sure you're thinking of The Salvation War by Stuart Slade, possibly best described as "antitheist gun porn".
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May 28, 2015 06:49
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Fried Chicken posted:What was that quasi-urban fantasy thing from a few years back where Bush invaded hell? I remember it getting mocked in LF, it was like mixing a David Weber power fantasy with a Tom Clancy handbook with the most smug "I'm too smart for religion" crap I've seen in a while. It was sucking David Petraeus' dick harder than Paula Broadwell by having him beat hell, while at the same time stroking its own ego about how hell was bronze age savages and military hardware was so Gosh darn awesome in its ability to blindly kill civilians. It's definitely Armageddon???/The Salvation War. Hell invades Earth, and America self-defenses hell to death over the course of a billion words of gratuitous military hardware porn. As I recall, it also takes brief breaks from that in order to show other important things, like how George W. Bush is a stoic hero who manfully shoulders the burden of being America's President and Commander-in-Chief. Or how Robert McNamara* is in the final circle of hell for betraying America. * Might not have actually been McNamara, but gently caress if I'm going to revisit the thing to find out. Either way, it was the kind of self-indulgent move that introduced a story element difficult to reconcile with the main plot: namely, his inclusion indicates that whoever runs hell's soul sorting system shares Slade's hate-on for McNamara, a lot of which would rely on knowledge of modern warfare and geopolitics. Which doesn't mesh at all with the picture of a bronze age hell that is entirely unprepared for a war waged with modern weapons and masturbatory descriptions of the carnage inflicted on those unprepared legions. The whole story was constructed from this kind of self-indulgence; the end result was an awful mishmash of whatever happened to catch the author's attention. Are you sure it was LF? It could also have been TFR, since I remember that's where the readthrough of Unintended Consequences was.
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May 28, 2015 08:02
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