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ViggyNash posted:I think everyone likes Waver because he's a nice guy and the most relatable of the cast (and also because he was bros with Rider), but he's not as interesting a character as the other major players at the end of the day. He might be less intellectually interesting but he's emotionally engaging. A character doesn't have to be a thought experiment on morality to be a good character.
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May 28, 2015 04:27
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Endorph posted:kiritsugu, playing with his daughter: Thank you for this.
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May 28, 2015 04:30
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waver has a character arc and growth kiritsugu is static and absurdly boring as a protagonist yeah his fight against kayneth was interesting to watch play out in terms of more traditional magic versus kiritsugu's gun/time magic, but he was just awful beyond that
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May 28, 2015 04:31
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I'd rather hang out with Shirou for a home cooked meal over brooding with Kerry.
Compendium fucked around with this message at 04:41 on May 28, 2015 |
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May 28, 2015 04:32
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Kiritsugu is alright as a character but the whole point is he's a weird ideologue who does hosed up poo poo, I have no idea why so many people can't grasp that.
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May 28, 2015 04:34
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Rodyle posted:Kiritsugu is alright as a character but the whole point is he's a weird ideologue who does hosed up poo poo, I have no idea why so many people can't grasp that. Maybe weird hosed up ideologues are cool.
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May 28, 2015 04:50
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Redmark posted:I don't have strong feelings about Fate/Zero either way so it's a bit strange to me how much this thread (and often the other one too) revolves around it. Obviously there's a comparison to be made, but man it is absolutely dominating the discussion. i liked F/Z more before UBW started airing and half of the threads were whining about how stories with adults are better or other dumb opinions seeing F/Z first inspired whining about whining about UBW is perfectly okay though
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May 28, 2015 05:12
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The actually interesting stuff about Kiritsugu doesn't come off very clearly for a lot of people, so all they see is the typical stone-cold killer who does cool things (even Kotomine mistook him for this, that's why he was interested in him in the first place) until you get his Tragic Backstory thrown at you. Kiritsugu is probably more interesting if it was more obvious he was a broken man at the start of Zero and gets only more broken as time goes on. A friend of mine described it this way: his ideology is at odds with his goals and he's suffering from desperation to achieve those goals because the dissonance between his vague goal of "end conflict and evil" and his method of "do whatever it takes to defeat evil" is eating him up inside. Because he's kind of childish. He even uses pronouns that indicate his emotional immaturity. His moral handwringing comes from not wanting to compromise on his heroic goal, even though he's perfectly willing to compromise on his methods, all despite the fact that he doesn't really have an endgame besides bringing about world peace... somehow. Like a child's understanding of good and evil. Even if the grail weren't tainted, he didn't really have a specific wish that any power could resolve. Just a vague dream. You know how in cheesy sci-fi, a character might outwit an evil computer by giving it a logical paradox and letting it short itself out? Angra Mainyu literally did that to Kiritsugu. His ends were unachievable, which meant there was nothing capable of justifying his means. When he realized that, he was able to see that the entire grail war was a farce, even if he didn't know exact nature as to why. Kiritsugu's story is intellectually interesting to type out, but sadly as presented he's really boring in spite of this. Meanwhile, Waver's story is intellectually pretty simple. He's an ordinary person, for a given value of ordinary, who gets way in over his head and finds a magical mentor-figure/friend (and, going by author comments, romantic interest) who teaches him how to grow up. On paper, gosh, that's not nearly as interesting as a morality thought experiment told through guns and buildings exploding. In practice, it was compelling and lent a human angle to the entire show.
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May 28, 2015 05:22
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Oh, right. Shirou's story is also about resolving a thought experiment regarding heroism, though instead of being about ends justifying means and chasing a dream, he's more about living up to ideals. It's a shame that his arc is actually split between multiple routes, which was clever in the VN but not so great for adaptations. Fate ends with Shirou chasing his childish ideals. UBW has him come to terms with and understand them, but pursue them because he feels its the right thing to do. HF has him grow out of them, and instead of living as a hero he lives as a man. While not the end-all ultimate result of what Shirou, the person, could be it's the resolution of his arc as presented in the source material. So if you wanted a really satisfying conclusion to the Fate franchise's themes, UBW ain't it. Much less the plotlines left hanging in Zero. Gosh it's pretty, though. Super pretty. Also the source material made the mistake of putting all of Shirou's nuance in loving internal monologues, like hell anyone's going to adapt those. Despite that he's okay. A bit "arch" since you only see the end result of his thought processes, not the much more interesting processes themselves, but Kiritsugu also had that problem too. Though without his thought processes Kerry's still a guy with a trenchcoat and gun, so you can see why he's popular. I'm honestly not a big fan of high-concept thought-experiment stories, but on the whole Shirou is cool.
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May 28, 2015 05:34
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Actually, I've heard Fate Shirou doesn't become Archer either even if he does come the closest out of the three. I've never understood the justification as to why though.
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May 28, 2015 05:39
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Allarion posted:Actually, I've heard Fate Shirou doesn't become Archer either even if he does come the closest out of the three. I've never understood the justification as to why though.
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May 28, 2015 05:51
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Allarion posted:Actually, I've heard Fate Shirou doesn't become Archer either even if he does come the closest out of the three. I've never understood the justification as to why though. The way I understood it? Because of Archer. I think Archer comes from a timeline where Archer was not summoned as a Hero during the Grail War as Rin's Servant. Influence from Archer himself, even if minor, sets Shirou on a different path. Fate Shirou is the closest to becoming Archer, but not likely, UBW Archer is very unlikely, and HF is drat near impossible.
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May 28, 2015 06:50
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One thing that I think muddies the waters about Kiritsugu is that his insane ideology works in the end. When Angra Manyu confronts him with its flaws, he just goes 'nope, Imma stick to it anyway' and destroys the Grail, saving the world (even if the backlash levels Fuyuki). It takes a hell of a lot out of him, but it does lead him to the best available option.
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May 28, 2015 10:03
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Yeah but his stupid bullshit led him into a situation where that outcome was his best and only available option, whereas if he'd actually put any thought or reason into his actions up to that point he likely could've avoided such an extreme outcome to begin with.
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May 28, 2015 10:09
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Darth Walrus posted:One thing that I think muddies the waters about Kiritsugu is that his insane ideology works in the end. When Angra Manyu confronts him with its flaws, he just goes 'nope, Imma stick to it anyway' and destroys the Grail, saving the world (even if the backlash levels Fuyuki). It takes a hell of a lot out of him, but it does lead him to the best available option. The best available option left to him. His idiocy ensured that there was no other path left to him and even after all that he was also responsible for help staring Shriou down an even more hosed up path then he followed.
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May 28, 2015 10:13
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T.G. Xarbala posted:The actually interesting stuff about Kiritsugu doesn't come off very clearly for a lot of people, so all they see is the typical stone-cold killer who does cool things (even Kotomine mistook him for this, that's why he was interested in him in the first place) until you get his Tragic Backstory thrown at you. I just want to state for the record that using –l ("boku") doesn't indicate immaturity. I've heard it used in a lot of semi-professional situations where the male speaker doesn't want to sound too formal or too feminine but isn't going to go off the rails and use ‰´ ("ore").
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May 28, 2015 12:58
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Rodyle posted:Kiritsugu is alright as a character but the whole point is he's a weird ideologue who does hosed up poo poo, I have no idea why so many people can't grasp that.
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May 28, 2015 13:03
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Gonna back AlternateNu's statement up. If using "boku" indicates emotional immaturity, it makes me wonder why both myself and my boss at work use it all the time as our pronouns. (source: work in a Japanese company, in Japan, with a Japanese boss) It's not as common as "ore" for sure, but it's by no means indicating immaturity or femininity. If it's anything, it's either less aggressive or less casual than ore, or a mix of both. LiquidRain fucked around with this message at 16:37 on May 28, 2015 |
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May 28, 2015 13:04
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yeah boku isn't immature what the hell. stop trying to act like an expert on the japanese language because you watch anime
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May 28, 2015 15:56
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My bad.
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May 28, 2015 16:04
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I watched the dub of Fate/Zero so I could listen to Matthew Mercer's sweet, sweet voice.
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May 28, 2015 16:07
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Could someone point one when Kiritsugu did so badly? Was it when he killed his father to stop more villages being exterminated? Was it when he killed the assassin lady to prevent New York City being overrun by zombies? Was it when he killed lovely mages and a serial killer in the Holy Grail War? Was it when he attempted to destroy the grail when it's true nature was revealed? It just does not compute to me. Are people arguing that everything can be solved without killing people? Because that is obviously not true, especially in the freaking Holy Grail War. I mean, did you all ignore when Rin was trying very hard to kill Shirou? Was Kiritsugu's wish a bit much? Yeah, but the grail was supposed to be all powerful. It really just seems the Kiritisugu haters are just being hipsters about this, and are upset about Fate/zero being more succesful then UBW.
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May 28, 2015 19:36
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Probably when he decided that the way to world peace was to kill as many threats as possible. EDIT: I guess if you want an exact point, then it would be right after he killed Natalia and decided that sunk cost fallacy wasn't a thing. BlitzBlast fucked around with this message at 19:45 on May 28, 2015 |
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May 28, 2015 19:41
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Read the previous page you dope, there are literally multiple answers to your questions.
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May 28, 2015 19:45
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BlitzBlast posted:Probably when he decided that the way to world peace was to kill as many threats as possible. Ah, yes, of course, the sunk cost fallacy. Argument conceded, carry on.
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May 28, 2015 19:48
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Archer is cooler than Kiritsugu because UBW is a much cooler magic than the time crap and shooting super magic swords is cooler than a gun.
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May 28, 2015 19:50
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Surprisingly Dope posted:Fate/zero being more succesful then UBW. I love this lie you see people try to push that Fate or TM in general was in some kind of dire need/is unpopular and had to be rescued by Fate Zero.
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May 28, 2015 19:57
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TheLovablePlutonis posted:Archer is cooler than Kiritsugu because UBW is a much cooler magic than the time crap and shooting super magic swords is cooler than a gun. Hahahahahaha. Now I know your trolling, UBW is the shittiest most boring power in the series. It's like Zero Rider's noble phantasm but without being cool. And the time magic was loving sick.
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May 28, 2015 20:14
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May 28, 2015 20:16
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Anime Sandwich please stop owning the retards in this thread.
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May 28, 2015 20:16
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Ibram Gaunt posted:Anime Sandwich please stop owning the retards in this thread. It just makes me so angry that they think that Kiritsugu isn't cool.
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May 28, 2015 20:21
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Where does the Greatest Cool fit on this particular scale.
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May 28, 2015 20:28
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There is an interesting difference between Kiritsugu and Shirou ideologies. Kiritsugu abandons his humanity for the sake of his goal (the world free from fighting), while Shirou wants to become hero of justice (superhero) since he mistakenly sees that as the only way to retain his disintegrating humanity. That's why Angra Manyu destroy Kiritsugu so easily, while Archer can't do jack poo poo to Shirou. And that's also why Shirou is more interesting character to me. In many ways, UBW Shirou is more similar to Kirei than Kiritsugu. rvm fucked around with this message at 21:03 on May 28, 2015 |
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May 28, 2015 20:47
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rvm posted:,Shirou is more similar to Kirei than Kiritsugu. Hmmmm
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May 28, 2015 20:55
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"What other people called happiness, did not bring me any joy."
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May 28, 2015 20:56
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Rodyle posted:Hmmmm Both desperately cling to their humanity, in different ways. That's why Kirei loathes Kiritsugu who willingly gives it up.
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May 28, 2015 21:06
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rvm posted:Both desperately cling to their humanity, in different ways. That's why Kirei loathes Kiritsugu who willingly gives it up. Wasn't disagreeing!
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May 28, 2015 21:09
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Surprisingly Dope posted:It just makes me so angry that they think that Kiritsugu isn't cool. He's badass in that he's hyper-capable at doing the job that needs doing - I get that and like that about him - but the world-view he acts on is so totally broken it counteracts any good impression the former provides. He'd be a pretty cool guy if you didn't know that context.
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May 28, 2015 22:07
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Surprisingly Dope posted:Hahahahahaha. Now I know your trolling, UBW is the shittiest most boring power in the series. It's like Zero Rider's noble phantasm but without being cool. And the time magic was loving sick. It's being like frickin' megaman but with legendary weapons instead of Doctor Wily's human being rear end robots.
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May 28, 2015 22:07
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Why couldn't Megaman just copy the robot master retards while fighting them anyway like in the cartoon? It would save me a lot of grief on the Metal Man stage where I could just chuck his blades back at him and instakill the idiot.
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May 28, 2015 22:11
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