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Anna Anthropy of all people has a really cool article about Jeigans. Her thesis is very similar to Bongo Bill's: Jeigans are a super cool dynamic difficulty system that lets the player both smooth the difficulty curve, by pulling out Marcus when the going gets tough, as well as make the game easier or harder at her whim.
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May 28, 2015 05:36
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Um my guess is just that Butler/Maid is one of those "~30 levels but no promotion track" things. So they're not Jeigans, but they don't turn into anything either and what they reclass to may depend on their level.
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May 28, 2015 05:45
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Cake Attack posted:now buy the good smile lucina figma because amiibos look like garbage Kinda late to jump on that train cause I'm pretty sure they are sold out at this point.
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May 28, 2015 05:49
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Cake Attack posted:now buy the good smile lucina figma because amiibos look like garbage Figmas look terrible too, hth The Tharja figure is bad too but for different reasons. The upcoming Cordelia figure looks neat but not amazing.
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May 28, 2015 05:50
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Nakar posted:Um my guess is just that Butler/Maid is one of those "~30 levels but no promotion track" things. So they're not Jeigans, but they don't turn into anything either and what they reclass to may depend on their level. That was my guess as well, although I would have loved it if Great Butler were an actual class.
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May 28, 2015 06:05
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WrightOfWay posted:Joke solution: the Jeigan joins later in the game on Lunatic. This would let them still have a crutch character on lower difficulties without breaking the game balance on the highest. You could just make the Jagen a level 10 cav, since most of the lovely ones look like a level 10 Christmas Knight with better Res and Lance ranks. Maybe even give them a skill that's something like "less/more EXP depending on the level difference between kills" or something so they can't solo as easily.
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May 28, 2015 06:15
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Last Celebration posted:You could just make the Jagen a level 10 cav, since most of the lovely ones look like a level 10 Christmas Knight with better Res and Lance ranks. Maybe even give them a skill that's something like "less/more EXP depending on the level difference between kills" or something so they can't solo as easily.
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May 28, 2015 06:17
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Frederick Emblem is my sacred right, thank you very much.
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May 28, 2015 06:19
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nrook posted:Anna Anthropy of all people has a really cool article about Jeigans. Her thesis is very similar to Bongo Bill's: Jeigans are a super cool dynamic difficulty system that lets the player both smooth the difficulty curve, by pulling out Marcus when the going gets tough, as well as make the game easier or harder at her whim. I had that exact article in mind. Thank you for saving me the trouble of digging up the link. I have a hard time using Jeigans because I hold off too long on giving them any EXP, so they're still rocking their level 1 bases by the time unpromoted guys are starting to pass them. I guess that means I don't need the crutch, but it's kinda awkward when I like the character but have to fight against every instinct I have to actually use them. It's a different kind of challenge than I expect!
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May 28, 2015 06:26
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Nakar posted:Um my guess is just that Butler/Maid is one of those "~30 levels but no promotion track" things. So they're not Jeigans, but they don't turn into anything either and what they reclass to may depend on their level. Then they'd reclass to a promoted unit at level 9? Also I had a Fire Emblem dream tonight, it was cool.
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May 28, 2015 07:35
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Nakar posted:Seth Emblem is my sacred right, thank you very much.
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May 28, 2015 08:48
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gently caress literally anyone who suggests removal of Jeigans, because when working on Hacking, especially the Awful Emblem team, I saw the result of that. The team has Tyty, and the thing is Tyty got into the series playing Awakening and while the hack was being made for more advanced players the mindset was always "Make it like making a video game." Tyty who could be called the lowest skill level of the team, was not having fun without the jeigan, there's a reason it's in every game and almost always a Paladin. And it's not like other units weren't strong but it's a serious drop in power that negatively affected a team members enjoyment of the project he was on.
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May 28, 2015 10:42
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The question is not should there be a Jeigan (because yes there should be), but what kind of Jeigan should the new early game pre-premote be? Should they be more like Jeigan, or should they be more like Seth? (Are there any units of the Jeigan archetype that are more useless in the longterm than the original? I haven't played through every FE game, but he always struck me as easily the worst of the lot.)
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May 28, 2015 10:54
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SyntheticPolygon posted:The question is not should there be a Jeigan (because yes there should be), but what kind of Jeigan should the new early game pre-premote be? Arran is just as bad, but you get Sirius in Chapter 4, who has A lances and B swords out of the gate, better bases, and is mandatory for the endgame. And Palla too if you're counting good high-mobility crutch units that can wield Silver Lances in general. Also, with Awakening's stupid high 60%+ growths across the board for every important stat, I don't think it's possible to make a Seth/Oifey-type unit since halfway decent bases for a level 1 prepremote now mean soloing the entire game.
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May 28, 2015 11:03
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Last Celebration posted:Arran is just as bad, but you get Sirius in Chapter 4, who has A lances and B swords out of the gate, better bases, and is mandatory for the endgame. And Palla too if you're counting good high-mobility crutch units that can wield Silver Lances in general. Seth was already an example of a unit that could solo the entire game. So it's nothing new. And we've got no idea whether they're going to keep Awakening's crazy high growths in IF. So there's still a chance they might make a character more like some of the earlier Jeigan's. Though I highly doubt that will be the case.
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May 28, 2015 11:09
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SyntheticPolygon posted:The question is not should there be a Jeigan (because yes there should be), but what kind of Jeigan should the new early game pre-premote be? Well, Seth is awesome, so definitely more like Seth. Onmi posted:gently caress literally anyone who suggests removal of Jeigans, because when working on Hacking, especially the Awful Emblem team, I saw the result of that. The team has Tyty, and the thing is Tyty got into the series playing Awakening and while the hack was being made for more advanced players the mindset was always "Make it like making a video game." Did they put the Jiegan back in?  Please say they did. That sounds horrible.
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May 28, 2015 12:22
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SyntheticPolygon posted:The question is not should there be a Jeigan (because yes there should be), but what kind of Jeigan should the new early game pre-premote be? They should be less like loving paladins. If there's one thing that romhacks/randomizers has taught me it's that magic/staff and Bow Jagens are wicked cool, and that it's a travesty that the series insists on making every Jagen a paladin. e: seriously though, the non paladin Jagens are what? Evlyn and Dagda from 5, the dudes the game takes away from you almost instantly? Have there been any others? FoolyCharged fucked around with this message at 12:28 on May 28, 2015 |
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May 28, 2015 12:26
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Jeigans are good, although I prefer Oifeys. EDIT: Also, I'm still impressed by Awful Emblems healer situation, where one healer is the Jeigan and the other joins at level 10, so you can promote her almost immediately if you want. Nihilarian fucked around with this message at 12:37 on May 28, 2015 |
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May 28, 2015 12:35
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FoolyCharged posted:They should be less like loving paladins. If there's one thing that romhacks/randomizers has taught me it's that magic/staff and Bow Jagens are wicked cool, and that it's a travesty that the series insists on making every Jagen a paladin. I agree. Staff Jiegans could be useful no matter what, and could even serve as nice distractions if their defense is high enough. Bow Jiegans you wouldn't have to worry about stealing too much EXP! Also, Sothe. Sothe was the Dawn Brigade's Jiegan and was useful because he could steal and do other thief things. He was a good dodge tank too so you could use him like a normal Jiegan- unequip his weapons and have him run in front of the enemy screaming "Look at me look at me!" Utility Jiegans are the best kind. That reminds me though. In the reverse recruitment patches for FE 7 and 8, your pre-promote ends up a flier- Falcoknights in this case, which is also really cool!
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May 28, 2015 12:39
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Shinon was a Bow Jeigan for like 2 chapters in POR and he ruled, because you could park him at a choke point and he would keep the entire enemy army at bay while doing no damage in return and letting your other units take the kills.
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May 28, 2015 13:03
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May 28, 2015 14:06
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Silver Falcon posted:Well, Seth is awesome, so definitely more like Seth. Well they promoted Niccolo, who was a Priest crutch to a Bishop and yeah that alleviated the problem. I think the main problem is that Artix is a very low power mindset from just talking with him and shooting the poo poo over documents he prefers things further to FE6 than 9. And when number crunching comes, Artix is more likely to err on the side of minimalisim and have to buff later, than maximize and have to debuff. FP's had to fight him to get some numbers changed and I remember really early on I saw the unit list for the game and I went "There's not enough units" and I think they added more since then, but it's just the show for minimalisim. And I have the opposite problem, I maximize everything. I'm not trying to have a go at anyone on Awful Emblems team since I love what they do.
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May 28, 2015 14:08
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SyntheticPolygon posted:Shinon was a Bow Jeigan for like 2 chapters in POR and he ruled, because you could park him at a choke point and he would keep the entire enemy army at bay while doing no damage in return and letting your other units take the kills. You do know you can unequip weapons, right? Anyone could sit somewhere and not counterattack if you really want them to.
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May 28, 2015 14:35
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He could do it while weakening units on the player turn. This is why archers rule, and are the best class in the game.
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May 28, 2015 14:46
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Onmi posted:Well they promoted Niccolo, who was a Priest crutch to a Bishop and yeah that alleviated the problem. I mean, FE 6 has HM bonuses for recruitable characters. Even if Roy is a bit poo poo with his late promotion it still has some of the more overpowered characters in the series too (at least if you take into account that they come OP right out of the box rather than needing leveling and/or planning like in 4), so calling FE6 low-power seems a bit off.
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May 28, 2015 15:56
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May 28, 2015 16:05
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also FE6 is pretty low power. The enemies in hard mode are fairly strong, and if you actually look at the averages even the busted Hard Mode units aren't any better than an average unit in FE8. Hard Mode Rutger and regular-rear end Joshua have basically the same bases, and Joshua's growths are way better. Rutger's only a bit better than Hard Mode Guy - and if you take into account that Guy's two levels lower, he has a chance to catch up, since Guy's growths are actually better. Rutger is a god compared to the other units in his game, but if you look at him in comparison to later games in the series, he's a standard Myrmidon. Endorph fucked around with this message at 16:08 on May 28, 2015 |
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May 28, 2015 16:06
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May 28, 2015 16:10
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You get Zeiss really late in the game, and he still doesn't really break the 'low power' argument. Like sure those bases are absurd, but his growths are still on the lower end of things. By the time he hits promotion he's still absurd for FE6, but he's still worse than, say, FE10 Haar at equivalent levels.
Endorph fucked around with this message at 16:16 on May 28, 2015 |
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May 28, 2015 16:12
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May 28, 2015 16:14
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really i'd use miledy to prove your point, her stats are a little worse for her level but she joins early
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May 28, 2015 16:16
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I wasn't really trying to prove anything, really. One of the bigger reasons I dislike FE6 is exactly because your units feel so weak.
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May 28, 2015 16:18
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oh right i forgot FE8 gave hard mode boosts. Serenes doesn't have averages for them for some reason. But again my point isn't 'the hard mode characters aren't broken in FE6,' because they totally are, my point is that numbers in FE6 are really low comparatively speaking. You could drop just about any character from any of the games after it in FE6 and they'd be absurdly good, even random rear end units like FE7 Karel or Saleh. edit: and honestly I love the lack of bloat in FE6. It's one of my favorite things about the game. The fact that numbers are pretty low means there's greater diversity among your units, and that you actually have to deploy units with weak points as opposed to choosing which of you guys with straight 20s to send into the fray.
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May 28, 2015 16:18
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That said, I'm fine with FE7's power line too. I just feel like after that things kept getting stupider and stupider in terms of number bloat. Hopefully IF goes back down to at least an FE9 level of power.
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May 28, 2015 16:21
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I'm looking forward to seeing how buffs and debuffs will affect Fire Emblem.
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May 28, 2015 16:26
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technically FE7 already had buffs, though I don't think anyone's ever used them for anything but arena abuse and oneshotting the dragon.
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May 28, 2015 16:28
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Terper posted:I'm looking forward to seeing how buffs and debuffs will affect Fire Emblem. Well do you mean story wise or just mechanically. Probably story wise given that it hasn't really changed mechanically after the first game when it took an inventory slot but let Marth open chests.
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May 28, 2015 16:29
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FoolyCharged posted:Well do you mean story wise or just mechanically. Probably story wise given that it hasn't really changed mechanically after the first game when it took an inventory slot but let Marth open chests. Well mechanically obviously. I hope it means a shift to fewer but stronger enemy units in most maps. e: Oh, you thought I meant the ACTUAL Fire Emblem, lol. No, I mean the game. e2: Though I suppose it could, maybe the Fire Emblem ends up being a dragonstone for Kamui, that'd be neat. Terper fucked around with this message at 16:33 on May 28, 2015 |
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May 28, 2015 16:30
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FoolyCharged posted:Well do you mean story wise or just mechanically. Probably story wise given that it hasn't really changed mechanically after the first game when it took an inventory slot but let Marth open chests.
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May 28, 2015 16:31
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Endorph posted:how do you misread a post this badly Yeah, because you didn't make a dumb joke about his post either. Also I totally forgot they buffed it in FE3 to kill all earth dragons at the start of the player phase.
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May 28, 2015 16:34
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