|
Loomer posted:Blood and Betrayal dropped today. I am one page in and it's already some peak oWoD. Weird bald dude? check. Bondage gear? Check. hosed up teeth, not discounting two front teeth as fangs? Check. That is their frontispiece. MET is now designed from the ground up with the interests of hardcore MES play in mind, so it's going to go with that. These days it's really more of an LARP org internal rules set like NERO. Sure, you could "run NERO" or run MET on your own but the system doesn't bend that way for you. Personally I think it's sort of a pity because I know a lot of people who started gaming with grey book Laws of the Night, which has a light, intuitive system that lends itself to natural language. But it's not designed for the highly competitive vibe and overarching structure of organized play, so I can't blame the current development direction for being what it is, either.
|
#
?
May 27, 2015 18:09
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 8, 2024 07:51 |
|
|
Mors Rattus posted:I feel like they kind of need a thing that isn't just 'A Changeling, but worse'. They're like ghouls are to vampires except for the part where ghouls can go out in the sun and vampires can't. Like, they talk about how Fae-touched still have human identities in society, but their obsessive need to enter the Hedge and get glamour seems like it'd get in the way of that. I personally feel like they need to put more emphasis on relations between fae-touched and changelings that have reunited back in the real world. Most of the writeup seems to assume the changeling is still absent and is more geared towards playing as a fae-touched, but my first thought on reading the premise was 'hey, cool, here's a way to give my changeling an npc bro in the freehold.'
|
|
#
?
May 27, 2015 18:19
|
|
|
Luminous Obscurity posted:In other news, Beast: The Primordial's Kickstarter should be going up at the end of the week. So we should have a look at the final text of it soon enough. I can't decide if I want them to nerf the hilariously overpowered Atavisms into playability or leave them as the "stronkest powers ever written in a WoD book" state that they are in the leak.
|
|
#
?
May 27, 2015 19:25
|
|
|
I'm guessing the answer will be "both, one selected randomly for each power."
|
|
#
?
May 27, 2015 22:34
|
|
|
Yeah, I'm not really sure what fae-touched are... for, exactly. They seem to just be weaker changelings, without any of the interesting tensions you get out of ghouls, revenants, wolf-blooded, or sleepwalkers.
|
|
#
?
May 27, 2015 23:41
|
|
|
There is a happy medium between the C:tL 1E demisplat- ensorcelled mortals- and the Fae-Touched. Ensorcelled mortals were Fae-ghouls with even less powers, while the Fae-Touched act like mini-changelings with a hard cap on power output. It very much reads as a format filler to allow each 2E game a demisplat for players to crossover their games than something that the 1E game needed. On that note, I don't like the change to the setting that Fae-Touched represents to C:tL; making the hedge itself responsible for applying Wyrd to a mortal rather than a True Fae is a dilution of the basic horror and interconnection of the Changeling experience. Fittlewink and Rickiki suffered through a durance and escaped arcadia, while Bob just got lost in the bramble bushes off the highway for a week?
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2015 00:27
|
|
|
I really, really like the tone of what they're going for, even if its ultimate execution is a bit odd like Gerund notes. The idea of someone being Labyrinth'd into seeking out a lost loved one is appropriate as hell, but yeah, I assumed that most of them would either find their lost one or end up dead.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2015 02:21
|
|
|
Gerund posted:
You mean the constantly shifting verdant horror maze of brambles, sentient thorns, stalking monsters, and greedy tricksters right off the highway?
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2015 16:50
|
|
|
I suspect Gerund knew exactly what he was talking about given his familiarity with Changeling: the Lost, and was instead making a point about how the Fae-Touched represent a similar problem as the Huntsmen, if presented from a different avenue of attack: they lessen the importance and primacy of the True Fae in the game's lore and execution
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2015 18:16
|
|
|
Soonmot posted:You mean the constantly shifting verdant horror maze of brambles, sentient thorns, stalking monsters, and greedy tricksters right off the highway? "This isn't exactly the kind of tourist trap I had in mind!"
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2015 19:38
|
|
|
Lost 1E does a great job at putting the fear of the Others into you, and I really hope that isn't Lost in the passate between editions. Let's hope the Huntsmen do not steal the scene, leaving us with two mediocre villains instead of a single terrifying one.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2015 20:15
|
|
|
I've been pleasantly surprised with Lost 2E. I'm really into the way Seemings now map to responses to trauma. I'm not entirely sure if it was intentional or just a happy accident (like the courts in 1E mapping to the stages of grief), but drat if it hasn't won me over. They can still fumble Huntsmen and the Others, but so far I'm pretty optimistic.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2015 20:48
|
|
|
I'm running a Demon campaign soon, and there's something that's been bugging me. How do demons recognize each other? It's not like vampires where you instantly know when you're in the presence of another demon, unless I'm forgetting something from the book. Short of one demon walking around blasting out aether and another trying to sniff it out, how do two demons ever meet one another?
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2015 03:22
|
|
|
The careful butt-sniffing dance of the spy, mostly. You look for people who act like you do, and hope you're right.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2015 03:36
|
|
|
Yeah, for better or for worse I think that's a feature not a bug. I think maybe Demons can detect Aether being spent?
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2015 03:57
|
|
|
Kellsterik posted:Yeah, for better or for worse I think that's a feature not a bug. I think maybe Demons can detect Aether being spent? Demons can detect Aether in general, not just being spent, so they can get a sense of another demon just walking around with a pocketful of the stuff. Of course, angels also "leak" Aether, and a demon's senses can't tell the difference beyond "there is Aether here," so, ya know... be careful. EDIT: My bad, I forgot that demons under Cover only register to Aetheric Resonance when they spend Aether. The rest still applies, though. As for how demons meet/learn about each other, Mors and Kellsterik are right. Mostly it's a matter of cautious paranoia and the occasional calculated risk of contact. Don't forget also that a Fall is, metaphysically speaking, a freaking huge deal and so most demons are found shortly after their Fall (the intro fiction is a good example of this). The lucky ones are found by other Unchained before they're found by loyalists. In other words, most demons who last longer than a few days probably end up getting at least a general introduction to the local Unchained "scene," probably including recognition codes and countersigns, dead drops, etc. And yes, that's all a very definite feature. We spent a lot of time during development making sure demons don't have abilities that undercut that sense of paranoia and mistrust.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2015 04:15
|
|
|
ZiegeDame posted:I'm running a Demon campaign soon, and there's something that's been bugging me. How do demons recognize each other? It's not like vampires where you instantly know when you're in the presence of another demon, unless I'm forgetting something from the book. Short of one demon walking around blasting out aether and another trying to sniff it out, how do two demons ever meet one another? How do demons meet? Easy answer. Extremely carefully. If you're playing paranoia themes to the absolute hilt, barring seeing someone transform into their demonic form right in front of you, which is a rarity for reasons which should be pretty obvious, you should never truly know who you're talking to really is. Yeah, he knows all the codephrases, he remembers all the right stuff, and he's acting the same as he always has. But maybe he was a deep cover mole all along, and he's swapped the cover over to an assassin Integrator ready to sell you all out. Or this new cover he swears is really him is actually an angel that spied on you long enough to learn just enough to get in your good graces and feed you both disinformation, carefully manipulating every interaction so the two of you never realize what's happening. Or that seemingly totally mundane contact of yours has been Spoofing the poo poo out of you and is actually a demon so deep in her cover that if she even thinks you're trying to suss out a confession she'll kill you and bury the body so deep even the God-Machine won't find it. Or maybe he's exactly who you think he is - except he's not really, because demons lie, and there's a whole lot more to his motives and abilities than you've been led to believe. Remember, even demons can't prove another demon's lying. And demons lie about everything, from the biggest things to the tiniest things. The second you tell the truth is the second you show your throat to someone who might have a dagger behind their back. The closest demons can get to positively identifying each other as demonic without extremely careful conversation or potentially blowing their own covers is by using Aetheric Resonance, which lets you know the rough location of nearby angels and demons out of their Cover, and when a demon spends Aether nearby - or when an angel spends Essence. There's no way to differentiate the two. You have to spend Aether to activate this too, which means you show up on the radar of any demon who thought of doing it first, and they're immediately made aware you're one of two things - the enemy, or an unknown agent. Twitchy demons tend to treat the two equally until given an extremely good reason to do otherwise. Paranoia is written into every atom of Demon's structure. It's suffocating in the best way possible, but for the sake of playability, I suggest letting the players just trust each other as much as demons can trust anybody, to avoid weeks/months of dancing around co-operating as little as possible. If you want to play the game so that the paranoia extends to the ring itself, that's extremely viable, but that takes a very particular set of players. NPCs, though, should always be treated as potentially traitorous. Even if none of them ever turn out to be, it is always, ALWAYS possible that the smallest thing you say to the most inconsequential person will be the thing that gets you dragged back to the reclamation forges, and it is that fact that informs nearly everything else about Demon. E: As GimpInBlack says, a major thing that lessens the chokehold is that Fallen demons set off basically every  poo poo IS GOING DOWN sensor in the general vicinity, so the demons that survive long enough to evade the detachment of hunter-killers sent after their last known location are generally aware of the local players that are willing to stick their necks out a bit. Of course, it's entirely possible they're scooped up by traitors first and crafted into unwitting trojan horses.
Daeren fucked around with this message at 04:22 on May 29, 2015 |
|
#
?
May 29, 2015 04:17
|
|
|
Daeren posted:How do demons meet? Easy answer. Extremely carefully. If you ran a Demon game this way without handwaving everyone knowing each other after two sessions the game would explode
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2015 04:30
|
|
|
tatankatonk posted:If you ran a Demon game this way without handwaving everyone knowing each other after two sessions the game would explode And that's why I said to do exactly that for the PCs (and I suppose a few key NPCs) that unless your players are very particular sorts of people 
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2015 04:31
|
|
|
Daeren posted:And that's why I said to do exactly that for the PCs (and I suppose a few key NPCs) that unless your players are very particular sorts of people "A few key NPCs" would have to be over half of all regularly interacted with NPCs because ~the mysterious possibly untrustworthy NPC~ is best used as a singular exception, so why is your advice applicable for people actually playing the game e: I mean the theme of "trust no-one" can be best illustrated using one or two memorable characters, but if you extended it to even more than that, the conceit is overwhelmed tatankatonk fucked around with this message at 04:37 on May 29, 2015 |
|
#
?
May 29, 2015 04:33
|
|
|
tatankatonk posted:"A few key NPCs" would have to be over half of all regularly interacted with NPCs because ~the mysterious possibly untrustworthy NPC~ is best used as a singular exception, so why is your advice applicable for people actually playing the game Maybe because a ton of good spy stories come out of characters having to work with people they can never be entirely sure they can trust? Like, that's basically a foundation of the genre. "You can never really trust anyone, be careful and always have a contingency" is not the same as "OH GOD EVERYONE'S A SECRET TRAITOR TURTLE TURTLE KILL EVERYONE BEFORE THEY BETRAY YOU." EDIT IN RESPONSE TO YOUR EDIT: I think I get where you're coming from, but there's a difference between "you know, that Mr. Wrench guy is a shifty rear end in a top hat and I don't trust him" and "even this demon who's helped us out repeatedly might just be in it for the long con, I should keep my options open." The former, yeah, you don't want too many of (it's the Shadowrun problem, right? If every Mr. Johnson double crosses the runners, why are there even runners?), but the latter should definitely be omnipresent. GimpInBlack fucked around with this message at 04:43 on May 29, 2015 |
|
#
?
May 29, 2015 04:39
|
|
|
I'm familiar with the genre. A game of nWoD can't actually resemble a spy novel except superficially. Games aren't books or movies.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2015 04:42
|
|
|
The minute a LARP introduces a "can't trust anyone" body-snatcher plot, that game either goes to poo poo immediately or the social contract is established to never do it again. There is room for backstabby knives and betrayal, but it ends at the point when the act of knowing who you are talking to is in question.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2015 04:44
|
|
|
Gerund posted:The minute a LARP introduces a "can't trust anyone" body-snatcher plot, that game either goes to poo poo immediately or the social contract is established to never do it again. LARPs are a pretty different beast, though, and not the primary intent behind Demon's design.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2015 04:45
|
|
|
GimpInBlack posted:EDIT IN RESPONSE TO YOUR EDIT: I think I get where you're coming from, but there's a difference between "you know, that Mr. Wrench guy is a shifty rear end in a top hat and I don't trust him" and "even this demon who's helped us out repeatedly might just be in it for the long con, I should keep my options open." The former, yeah, you don't want too many of (it's the Shadowrun problem, right? If every Mr. Johnson double crosses the runners, why are there even runners?), but the latter should definitely be omnipresent. No, I get the appeal of the theme, but I don't think it can actually be explored concretely except at maybe the climax of a game. Paranoia can be emergent and organic when PCs confront the information deficit they have naturally, but its actual material consequences can't repeat themselves. "I should keep my options open" for a Demon means, in the case of betrayal, actual flight from the city or having to fight an angel, whereas for a vampire or mage it would mean summoning allies. You can keep the atmosphere of paranoia, but you can't keep its mechanics, because the powers used in response to it are so powerful and drastic in the context of the setting.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2015 04:47
|
|
|
I dunno, I think for my players 'keep my options open' tends to mean things like maybe a letter bomb or blackmail. At least, blackmail and enlightened self-interest is how they've managed to handle working with someone whom they knew hated their guts and would try to kill them the moment they gave her an excuse.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2015 04:49
|
|
|
tatankatonk posted:No, I get the appeal of the theme, but I don't think it can actually be explored concretely except at maybe the climax of a game. Paranoia can be emergent and organic when PCs confront the information deficit they have naturally, but its actual material consequences can't repeat themselves. "I should keep my options open" for a Demon means, in the case of betrayal, actual flight from the city or having to fight an angel, whereas for a vampire or mage it would mean summoning allies. You can keep the atmosphere of paranoia, but you can't keep its mechanics, because the powers used in response to it are so powerful and drastic in the context of the setting. Those are definitely campaign-climax appropriate betrayals (or at least campaign turning-point ones), but there's a whole range of stuff that can happen with betrayal that's somewhat less extreme than "Zathriel, Angel of the Ninth Aeon, comes for you with a sword of fire." Even in the most extreme case of "your buddy is replaced by a loyalist angel," it might not want to blow its cover yet, so it acts indirectly, sowing mistrust and factionalism among the city's various Rings. Demons can screw each other over for more immediate material gain--pacts, suborned Infrastructure, Gadgets, or just plain old mortal infrastructure. You're absolutely right that you probably can't have more than one big setpiece double-cross in a campaign, but I would disagree that that means you can't explore the theme concretely. Hell, a lot of times exploring themes of paranoia and mistrust is more poignant if nobody's actually a traitor, but nagging suspicion and doubt tears at relationships and wrecks the whole thing.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2015 05:00
|
|
|
Surely the existence of the Resonance Sensitive Merit destroys that entire theme? Wits 4 is a fairly hefty requirement but certainly not out of reach of anyone wanting to get it. You can identify Demons on sight and do all the Aether Resonancing you want without pinging it yourself.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2015 17:24
|
|
|
Doodmons posted:Surely the existence of the Resonance Sensitive Merit destroys that entire theme? Wits 4 is a fairly hefty requirement but certainly not out of reach of anyone wanting to get it. You can identify Demons on sight and do all the Aether Resonancing you want without pinging it yourself. Destroys? Not even a little. All it does is change the game a little bit. Just because you know for sure the person you're talking to is a demon doesn't mean you know for sure it's the same demon that approached you last week, or that said demon isn't an Integrator that's been promised a safe return to the Machine if he turns you in, or, hell, just a ruthless bastard who's totally willing to burn your cover to the ground if it advances his Agenda. The only thing that Merit eliminates as a concern is "is this walking pile of Aether actually a demon?" Also, remember two things: 1) Demons can still spoof this Merit with their Cover, and 2) Stealth technology, just like weapon technology, is always an arms race. If enough demons start using Resonance Sensitive to spot undercover angels, you can bet the God-Machine is going to start some projects to develop a Numen that makes angels ping as demons to Resonance Sensitives. If that doesn't work, it will change tactics and adapt. Or, to put it another way: Kyle Reese posted:The 600 series had rubber skin. We spotted them easy, but these are new. They look human... sweat, bad breath, everything. Very hard to spot. I had to wait till he moved on you before I could zero him.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2015 18:14
|
|
|
The fact that traitorous demons exist seems like a good reason to just let demons identify each other absent the influence of special powers which dictate otherwise. Special angels arriving which detect as demons to the demon-detecting merit you bought would be some bullshit, though.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2015 19:26
|
|
|
Ferrinus posted:Special angels arriving which detect as demons to the demon-detecting merit you bought would be some bullshit, though. That's not what I said, though. I said the G-M would start developing projects to foil the detection. In other words, introduce a plot hook that the PCs can investigate, infiltrate, and stop before it happens.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2015 19:37
|
|
|
Oh, right, I'd forgotten that the T-800 canonically never even reaches the prototype stage and so never manifests to menace the protagonists.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2015 19:44
|
|
|
Beast's Kickstarter missed it's window and will now be going up this Tuesday at 12pm EST. They've posted an update on crossovers in the meantime. Mage 2E also just got an update about non-Legacy Attainments (stuff like Mage Armor, Counterspell and Imbuing).
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2015 22:46
|
|
|
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2015 11:06
|
|
|
What are some of your favorite sourcebooks for nWoD? I've started to take a look at the blue books, but what's good in the main lines? The 2e stuff starting to drop is making me want to get into it again after a couple of attempts that failed due to the people I played with in the past being oWoD partisans to the degree that it made me look like a dude on a forum sneering about katana trenchcoats. Also, what oWoD setting elements would work best in nWoD games and vice versa?
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2015 11:15
|
|
|
What games or genres are you interested in? If you're doing Hunter or mortals, get the Horror Recognition Guide- hell, get it even if you're not. Predators is the must-have for Werewolf, and Damnation City is great for city building even outside Vampire.
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2015 11:21
|
|
|
Slashers is great in another "I will never play this" sort of way. Like maybe a one shot or something, but it does some nice world building and you can use it to make antagonists that are creepy and wrong, but not supernatural. Or go even further and make them totally supernatural. Plus, VASCU has to be my favorite "this governemental organization is aware of teh supernatural" type thing.
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2015 11:27
|
|
|
Vampire 2E is what I have right now, but eventually I'll probably want to check out everything. Damnation City looks superb. The Roman stuff seems interesting too, and also the 80s setting. Is there any medieval material? I'm planning a V20 Dark Ages game, and it might be useful, or make me consider VtR instead. Also, the Covenants are a huge part of the allure for me. Are any of the books about them particularly good or bad?
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2015 11:30
|
|
|
The clanbooks are great, and check out Ancient Bloodlines/Ancient Mysteries for medieval stuff.
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2015 13:22
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 8, 2024 07:51 |
|
|
Lightning Lord posted:Vampire 2E is what I have right now, but eventually I'll probably want to check out everything. Damnation City looks superb. The Roman stuff seems interesting too, and also the 80s setting. Is there any medieval material? I'm planning a V20 Dark Ages game, and it might be useful, or make me consider VtR instead. Also, the Covenants are a huge part of the allure for me. Are any of the books about them particularly good or bad? Ancoent Bloodlines/Mysteries are pretty great and cover a lot of different eras (WW1, Medieval, 30-year war, etc.) It's pretty good. I love each of the Covenant books, I thought they all added depth to their respective groups, as well as interesting options from a player and/or storyteller perspective. My favorite was probably the Invictus one, with my least favorite the Crone book. Pandora's book, for Promethean, is definitely a great book. Pretty much all the antagonist books are great, actually, giving a lot of tools for the ST to use. VII, Belial's Brood, Predators, The Pure, Blasphemies, all the Night Horrors books, Intruders, Seers of the Throne, Autumn Nightmares, and so forth are all great tools. The best part is, you can sue antagonists from different lines in whatever game you want.
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2015 16:20
|
|
