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Alright, so I have an existential D&D question. Why does the thief have Backstab? Why is that an ability? Why is it a class exclusive ability? Why is it for thieves?
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May 31, 2015 16:08
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My guess is that since Thieves had Hide in Shadows/Move Silently one of the Original Players said "hey if I attack while totally unseen isnt that better?" and the Original DM said "So Mote it Be".
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May 31, 2015 19:39
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What I'm getting from this Playing at the World post is that Thieves were not supposed to be as good as Fighters at fighting, so the Backstab ability goes hand-in-hand with Move Silently/Hide in Shadows as sort of the former serving as a post-hoc rationalization (am I using that phrase right) for the latter. The Thief's attack rolls aren't as good as Fighter's in keeping with the theme and role of a Thief, but at the same time using Move Silently/Hide in Shadows into a Backstab earns back the lost hitting power.
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May 31, 2015 20:25
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The thief in general is sort of interesting, since it wasn't among the very first classes, though now it's obviously a given in any kind of fantasy adventuring party. I don't remember where I read this, but it was some grognard's recollection of playing a game with some founding DM (maybe Gary?) and a player saying "Well, I want to be a thief!" and the DM just saying "Well, steal things, then."
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Jun 1, 2015 00:14
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A Strange Aeon posted:I don't remember where I read this, but it was some grognard's recollection of playing a game with some founding DM (maybe Gary?) and a player saying "Well, I want to be a thief!" and the DM just saying "Well, steal things, then." "I want to be a smuggler." -> Smuggle things. "I want to be an assassin" -> Kill people for money. Going by 2e, both of those are roles better filled by a fighter or ranger than a thief. It also keeps the characters away from traps and deadends as they level. House-ruled tweaks can add flavor (or 2e style kits) without creating an new class for a niche. Top-of-head ideas: Thief is a city-ranger than trades tracking and animal lore for open locks/pick pockets/disarm traps, and trades spells for lore and whatever version of use device you decide on. Assassin is a fighter that trades the ability to specialize for hide/silent/sneak attack, and trades con bonus for the ability to craft their own poisons. Obviously Im thinking in 2e terms, but the idea might hold up. Thieves were always the class that got screwed the most.
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Jun 1, 2015 00:34
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I like the idea that the Thief was the first class specifically designed for the dungeon.
WaywardWoodwose fucked around with this message at 01:13 on Jun 1, 2015 |
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Jun 1, 2015 01:10
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FRINGE posted:At a certain level thats a pretty good way to handle things. Making special classes for everything gets pretty weird and leads to a lot of dead ends. That's one of the things I like about Kevin Crawford's stuff - because he integrates the skill system from old school Traveller and because it's designed around sandbox play, it's quite easy to play just about any concept you want out of just three or four classes. To use being a thief as an example, in Spears of the Dawn, you have a Warrior, a Bard stand-in, a Wizard stand-in and a Cleric stand-in - if you want to be a thief, just take a couple of useful skills at character creation and start stealing poo poo. Meanwhile, in BECMI or earlier editions, one could just as easily remove the thief class and just treat pretty much all of the skills as either ability checks or "Tell me how you do it and I'll tell you if it works".
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Jun 1, 2015 02:31
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A Strange Aeon posted:The thief in general is sort of interesting, since it wasn't among the very first classes, though now it's obviously a given in any kind of fantasy adventuring party. Thief and Paladin were in the Greyhawk Supplement (I). Assassin and Monk in Blackmoor (II). Druid and Psionics in Eldritch Wizardry (III). Bard was in the Strategic Review #6 I think.
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Jun 1, 2015 04:24
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hectorgrey posted:Meanwhile, in BECMI or earlier editions, one could just as easily remove the thief class and just treat pretty much all of the skills as either ability checks or "Tell me how you do it and I'll tell you if it works".
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Jun 1, 2015 04:25
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Doe any have any experience/advice on running HackMaster? I've been reading through the 5th edition books over the weekend after liking what I saw on the on-going F&F review, and I have to say I really like what I'm seeing, what with the count-up combat/initiative system, spell-point based arcane magic, opposed rolls for attack/defense,
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Jun 1, 2015 05:38
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Thinking of running it in person? Or on the forums? Still sad it seems like Monks and Half-Ogres, and possibly some other stuff didn't make it into "5e".
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Jun 1, 2015 06:07
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Probably in person/online, I feel like it might be difficult to pull off the count-up over PbP.
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Jun 1, 2015 06:26
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No experience with HM 5e but I ran 4e (the original one) regularly for something like 3 straight years.
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Jun 1, 2015 06:36
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5e was enjoyable as the 'base' system, but after running it for a year as well as playing it for some time, I will say to avoid the Advanced Rules on most things except for maybe shields, but only if your table is good with math on the fly. ToPs will happen a lot, even on the most sturdy party members. Being ToPed fucks you out of almost an entire combat, so I would suggest upping ToP thresholds or ignore ToPs for PCs. Remind players of combat actions. This will keep combat fun during the weapon speed refreshes between swings and allows them more survivability. Grab a GMG for the magic items which almost become mandatory about level 5. At that point the monsters in the Beastiary start to get resists and their DR is impressive. It's not the end of the world, but Hackmaster combat can take long enough as it is. Whenever you throw a beast at a party, remember they are easy to hit because of low DEF bonus, but hit often. It may seem innocent having a creature swing every 4 seconds for 1d8p, but the PC is swinging once for every two times the monster is. With knock backs, penetrating rolls, and ToP risks, it's going to be a situation where the player is sweating bullets because the creature is tossing attacks out like mad. Once they get multiple attacks, it gets even worse. I am at work but that is what I know off of the top of my head. I can provide more detail later today. It's a fun system as long as you keep things moving. Dr. Doji Suave fucked around with this message at 14:44 on Jun 1, 2015 |
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Jun 1, 2015 08:17
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Evil Mastermind posted:I actually wrote a DW sanity system a while back; it was supposed to be part of a larger book but that apparently fell through ages ago. Thanks! This is just what I was looking for. Just a quick question, but I don't want to derail the thread: what do you mean with Madness Bond and Fear Alignment? gradenko_2000 posted:Just running straight OSR D&D is going to be pretty drat grimdark considering how fragile characters are. Part of the draw behind 3d6-in-order really was the ability to throw up a new character in 2 mins, because it was also expected that you'd need to do that a bunch of times before really getting a higher-level character since lives were cheap. Something along with Evil Mastermind's system and this would work even better! Thank you, both of you, for your ideas.
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Jun 1, 2015 08:59
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Commissar Kip posted:Thanks! This is just what I was looking for. Just a quick question, but I don't want to derail the thread: what do you mean with Madness Bond and Fear Alignment? Those were supposed to be things other people were doing; I was tying my stuff to other people's work. A fear alignment is something like "Paranoid: mark experience when you take out someone you're sure was out to get you", and a madness bond would be like "I will show ________ the true face of my otherworldly master."
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Jun 1, 2015 14:21
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On the thief as the first class built for the dungeon, I always wondered how that would play out. Like, almost all dungeon creatures see in the dark, so if the thief was meant to hide and sneak ahead of the party to scout stuff out and find traps, he couldn't be carrying a torch around with him, since it would alert all the monsters that someone is coming. So he'd basically have to see in the dark, but humans don't get that ability. Picking locked doors and stuff makes sense still, but it was never clear to me how you handled light sources in dungeons. You have to be a lot more creative to get those surprise rounds, I guess.
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Jun 1, 2015 16:55
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AlphaDog posted:No experience with HM 5e but I ran 4e (the original one) regularly for something like 3 straight years. Dr. Doji Suave posted:5e was enjoyable as the 'base' system, but after running it for a year as well as playing it for some time, I will say to avoid the Advanced Rules on most things except for maybe shields, but only if your table is good with math on the fly. === On the Thief, I can't help but feel that a class that could simply roll to spot and disarm a trap as a mechanical alternative to "talking it out" was a deliberate design decision so that players can engage in "tournament play", since the ability of a group to progress through a dungeon safely is no longer dependent on how cautiously they can spin their language.
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Jun 1, 2015 17:30
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When they say the Thief was the first class designed "for the dungeon", I presume they mean the first non-Chainmail derivative. And it kind of shows, in a sense: they know what adventurers have been doing in the game already and then made a class to do those things, plus some extra thief stuff. It just comes off looking rough in retrospect and kind of edges out other adventurers.
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Jun 1, 2015 17:34
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I found a full core set of 1st Edition AD&D plus modules and poo poo. Talk me into/out of starting this up. I've never played D&D, have no knowledge of it, and don't know the systems. But gently caress it. Sounds like fun.
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Jun 13, 2015 01:33
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Kilo147 posted:I found a full core set of 1st Edition AD&D plus modules and poo poo. Talk me into/out of starting this up. D&D is super fun, but you're really jumping in the deep end. Have you never role played before or just somehow never played a flavor of D&D?
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Jun 13, 2015 04:12
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A Strange Aeon posted:D&D is super fun, but you're really jumping in the deep end. Have you never role played before or just somehow never played a flavor of D&D? Never done anything like it. Figure get in a campaign of whatever the most recent, not poo poo version is. 3.5? Or what's your recommendation for a newbie to the rpg world?
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Jun 13, 2015 06:09
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Kilo147 posted:Never done anything like it. Figure get in a campaign of whatever the most recent, not poo poo version is. 3.5? Or what's your recommendation for a newbie to the rpg world? Okay, that's pretty broad. What is your interest RPG-wise? Do you want to play any RPG, or do you want to play a game that has the thematic elements that D&D has, or perhaps (judging by your post history) you might be interested in an RPG that features a strong tactical challenge element? I mean if you are just saying "Hey, I just bought $100 worth of AD&D poo poo on a whim, help me play it." we can do that too.
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Jun 13, 2015 07:04
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DalaranJ posted:Okay, that's pretty broad. I bought like, $250 worth of first edition poo poo, and I want to run a campaign. Eventually. Being a DM speaks to me. After reading through Tomb of Horrors, I was set on it. Goddamn, I love Tomb of Horrors. That said, and with no experience whatsoever, what's the best way to get in?
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Jun 13, 2015 07:27
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Kilo147 posted:I found a full core set of 1st Edition AD&D plus modules and poo poo. Talk me into/out of starting this up. You will want a set of DM Screen panels* printed out and propped up in front of you if you dont have an actual screen. As long as you have that all the attack rolls will be completely painless. Its just roll die, look at chart, hit-or-miss. Same with saving throws. * 1e screen: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0394515773/waynesworldof-20 * Heres some of the various 2e ones, they should be mostly fine: http://www.amazon.com/Dungeon-Masters-Advanced-Dungeons-Dragons/dp/0880382244 http://www.amazon.com/Advanced-Dungeons-Dragons-Official-Accessory/dp/0880387475 If nothing else figure out whats on them and print out your own equivalents, mount on cardboard and run with it. If you can handle running some town/wilderness setting stuff (extra talking and RP stuff between the action) the A-series modules run from level https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scourge_of_the_Slave_Lords Obviously youll want to find a digital source, the real ones are pricey: http://www.amazon.com/Scourge-Slavelords-Supermodule-Advanced-Dungeons/dp/0880382759 FRINGE fucked around with this message at 08:12 on Jun 13, 2015 |
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Jun 13, 2015 08:07
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Kilo147 posted:I bought like, $250 worth of first edition poo poo, and I want to run a campaign. Eventually. Being a DM speaks to me. After reading through Tomb of Horrors, I was set on it. Goddamn, I love Tomb of Horrors. You seem really enthusiastic, which is great! Do you know who your players will be? Role playing, more than most hobbies, depends a lot on the shared ideas of the participants. If you're super into running one thing and your players are lukewarm or have other ideas, you create a lot of bad conflict before you even get started. Tell us about your group or potential players! That'll help us give you the best advice on running.
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Jun 13, 2015 15:18
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A Strange Aeon posted:You seem really enthusiastic, which is great! Do you know who your players will be? Role playing, more than most hobbies, depends a lot on the shared ideas of the participants. If you're super into running one thing and your players are lukewarm or have other ideas, you create a lot of bad conflict before you even get started. Nothing yet. Well, one person for sure. He's never lost a game of risk, and he's slowly turning into his dad who keeps meticulous and absurdly complicated spreadsheets tracking every second of every game he's ever played. Even Solitaire. He has extensive experience with the system, due to playing poo poo tons of Baulder's Gate and other D20 based systems. Beyond him, no idea. Hence why I said I'm a long ways out. Need to find a group.
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Jun 13, 2015 16:11
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If youve never run a game definitely read through some of the old modules. They are usually on the simple side (its up to you to being in the world-context and NPCs if you want that kind of game) but at least give an idea of stringing encounters/rewards together in a way that has some sense to it. As far as table chatter goes, I know theres broadcase games to watch how people handle GM/player turns etc... but I can only think of two. The "I hit it with my axe" things, and the Wil Wheaton sponsered thing. DnD with Obviously DMing requires lots of makeup so start practicing now: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8Ra1ecLhtI Also the modern DnD training video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSynJyq2RRo Somebody fucked around with this message at 14:26 on Jun 16, 2015 |
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Jun 13, 2015 19:01
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Does anyone have a text dump for spells, monsters, or items in 1st/2nd/3rd/3.5 ? All the online SRD pages I've found are HTML and I'm trying to avoid scraping/parsing.
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Jun 14, 2015 07:41
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Wizards' site still has the SRD up in rtf, does that help? http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35
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Jun 14, 2015 08:58
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Edit/don't want to break site rules about files.
Name Change fucked around with this message at 09:13 on Jun 14, 2015 |
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Jun 14, 2015 09:09
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Analytic Engine posted:Does anyone have a text dump for spells, monsters, or items in 1st/2nd/3rd/3.5 ? All the online SRD pages I've found are HTML and I'm trying to avoid scraping/parsing. There's a really cool app for android that compiles all that kind of thing for 3.5. It's relatively easy to get the gist of what something does, even if there's a bunch more info that you wouldn't use in an old school game.
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Jun 14, 2015 14:17
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Siivola posted:Wizards' site still has the SRD up in rtf, does that help? This is great, thanks!
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Jun 14, 2015 15:58
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Kilo147 posted:I bought like, $250 worth of first edition poo poo, and I want to run a campaign. Eventually. Being a DM speaks to me. After reading through Tomb of Horrors, I was set on it. Goddamn, I love Tomb of Horrors.
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Jun 15, 2015 08:19
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Hey, so, many months ago the discussion in one of the chat threads turned towards the blending of science fiction and fantasy elements in games and fiction, including stuff like Keep on the Borderlands (where the dungeon is literally a crashed spaceship from Metamorphosis Alpha), the Phantasy Star series (which have wizards alongside space ships and so on) and the earliest installments of Might & Magic where the higher level dungeons would almost inevitably feature lasers and robots and stuff. I then suggested that one easy way of doing that was to run Labyrinth Lord straight and just throw in monsters and technological artifacts from Mutant Future (which happens to be mostly compatible with Labyrinth Lord). Hell, Mutant Future even has rules for running Mutant Future characters like replicants and mutants alongside Labyrinth Lord classes. Now I'm revisiting this idea and doing some thinking about how to run this. Even though a part of the concept is that the PCs are people living in a quasi-medieval fantasy world, I don't want to use the sci-fi backdrop as a surprise to spring on the players, simply because the sci-fi elements I think are important enough to be part of the pitch. So, even though the players are completely aware of the fact that at some point they're going to run into technological artifacts and such, the characters not knowing about it from the outset shouldn't be a thing. This leads into thinking about the classes: the standard Labyrinth Lord classes are in. Elves, dwarves and halflings are fluffed away as being strains of mutant humans that have become species of their own. However, I'm still unsure of what to do with the Mutant Future classes: I kind of want to throw in mutant plants, animals and humans as available classes, because random mutations are fun. One approach I was thinking of was to have the players roll their mutant's mutations randomly as usual, and then work with the player to integrate their character into the setting: their character could be a unique mutant or a member of an established species of mutants, according to their preference. Then there's the question of setting: a standard of a lot of eighties science fantasy is the idea that the fantasy setting is just our world hundreds or thousands of years after the apocalypse (this is the thing, at least to my understanding, in both Shannara and Dying Earth). Another alternative would be the idea of a world ship that has lost contact with the civilization that sent it and whose systems have failed to the extent that generations have arisen on the world ship that have no idea of how all the technology on the ship works, and who might not even be aware of the fact that they're on a ship (although they might have an idea of it through legends and myths). Oh, and when I do run this thing, it's probably going to be in PbP: my real life gaming time is dedicated to a Mad Max-esque Apocalypse World game at the moment, but this seems like the sort of thing I'd like to run just for fun in PbP.
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Jun 15, 2015 10:29
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I think you mean Expedition to the Barrier Peaks, not Keep on the Borderlands. Setting things in a worldship does give you the advantage of being able to really play with biomes and such, as you can have the various sections of the ship turn into their own ecosystems without touching any other part of the ship. So you can do the old "the jungle is right next to the desert" thing if you want.
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Jun 15, 2015 15:30
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Evil Mastermind posted:I think you mean Expedition to the Barrier Peaks, not Keep on the Borderlands. Right you are. I had just woken up and had yet to have my first cup of coffee, so I was getting things mixed up. Evil Mastermind posted:Setting things in a worldship does give you the advantage of being able to really play with biomes and such, as you can have the various sections of the ship turn into their own ecosystems without touching any other part of the ship. So you can do the old "the jungle is right next to the desert" thing if you want. This is a great point. Setting the thing on a worldship would allow me to compartmentalize the campaign setting to a much greater extent. The layout of a worldship would also allow me to basically build the entire setting as one huge megadungeon.
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Jun 15, 2015 17:15
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Keith Davies has a good series on node-based megadungeons where you're defining things more by function and relationships than by drawing stuff out on a piece of graph paper; that might help with the compartmentalizing.
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Jun 15, 2015 17:21
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Babylon Astronaut posted:Tomb of Horrors is really bad. It was a death funnel for a convention game. The best way to learn D&D is the basic red box. Tomb of Horrors is iconic, and it's fun if you go into it with the right mindset. It's one of the big inspirations for games like Nethack where you have to learn by dying and works best when you play it like that. Just have an endless armada of characters who amount to walking swords and spellbooks that are all about pushing the jolly, candy-like button that will kill them all just because, not some sort of trap to punish uppity players or kill """""overly powerful characters""""" and it's a blast. If you're planning a campaign with a story-arc, etc you might not want to use it as is except for maybe as a capper where everyone's super powerful, but you might actually want to look at the 1998 boxed set Return to the Tomb of Horrors if the concept intrigues you. It's got some advice for how to go about doing that. Actually speaking of that, I remember all three of the 2e Tomes adventures (Rod of Seven Parts and Axe of the Dwarvish Lords were the other two, there's also Return to White Plume Mountain but that's not part of that line and isn't available as a PDF as far as I can tell) being pretty good. Ratpick posted:Another alternative would be the idea of a world ship that has lost contact with the civilization that sent it and whose systems have failed to the extent that generations have arisen on the world ship that have no idea of how all the technology on the ship works, and who might not even be aware of the fact that they're on a ship (although they might have an idea of it through legends and myths). Have the ship establish a colony on an alien world before losing contact and this basically the concept of Skyrealms of Jorune. Lightning Lord fucked around with this message at 17:52 on Jun 15, 2015 |
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Jun 15, 2015 17:38
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It just occurred to me that a worldship would more than likely have some sort of 40k-esque machine cult, where old maintenance procedures have been passed down as religious rituals. That's your cleric class right there. "Anoint the power supply with the sacred oil, chant three times, and then depress the great black switch while giving thanks to the machine spirit."
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Jun 15, 2015 17:50
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