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Mavric posted:That's what I'm doing, don't shoot though, I'm unarmed. So is that a toy gun in your avatar?
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Jun 3, 2015 04:53
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pacmania90 posted:I believe that it would be morally acceptable to kill someone if they pointed at me something that could reasonably be mistaken for a gun. Okay great, this is something we can work with! Definition of "reasonably" aside, maybe you're right that in terms of the things this guy did wrong, shooting as someone he believed would hurt him is the least worst. This stilll leaves a lot of other totally degenerate behavior on the table. For example, confronting the squatters in the first place, and in particular at the time and in the manner he chose to do so. I can't prove he didn't deliberately plan to execute these people and contrive a set of circumstances which would provide him with the best legal cover (it being dark, him being alone, and other easily correctable factors that led to the shooting), but since he obviously was concerned enough about the situation to arm himself prior to the confrontation, he was at least aware of the possibility of the situation escalating into something tragic. This is the point where, if you're not a dangerously insane person, you say "hmm why am I doing this now and is it worth it?" and if you haven't already decided that you're going to kill these loving squatters in defense of liberty and property and whatever else the correct and morally praiseworthy course of action becomes immediately clear. Stay the gently caress out of the duplex.
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Jun 3, 2015 04:54
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pacmania90 posted:So is that a toy gun in your avatar? Are you seriously scared of my avatar? I'd explain that it's from a tv show so it clearly is firing blanks, on the other hand it is being held by a black guy so.... Mavric fucked around with this message at 05:02 on Jun 3, 2015 |
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Jun 3, 2015 04:59
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Let's consider four hypotheticals. 1. You are walking home from a restaurant when someone confronts you and points a gun at you, demanding you give them your wallet. You decided to wear your contact lenses today. This is the first time you've ever had something like a gun pointed at you. 2. You are walking home from a restaurant when someone confronts you and points a gun at you, demanding you give them your wallet. You decided not to wear your contact lenses today. This is the first time you've ever had something like a gun pointed at you. 3. You are walking home from a restaurant when someone confronts you and points a toy gun at you, demanding you give them your wallet. This is the first time you've ever had something like a gun pointed at you. 4 You are walking home from a restaurant when someone confronts you and points a toy gun at you, demanding you give them your wallet. The orange tip of the toy guy has been painted black. This is the first time you've ever had something like a gun pointed at you. In what situation would you be the most justified in shooting this person dead?
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Jun 3, 2015 05:12
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pacmania90 posted:Let's consider four hypotheticals. None, in this situation you hand over your wallet and leave alive. Though it's funny that engaging in a gun fight is a given for you.
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Jun 3, 2015 05:14
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pacmania90 posted:Let's consider four hypotheticals. None of the above. I carry ~$20 on my person at most, and I can easily cancel any credit/debit cards in there as soon as I get home. Given the opportunity, I report the crime to the police. It's not worth dying or killing someone over the contents of my wallet.
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Jun 3, 2015 05:15
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Hmm that's a tricky thought experiment! I guess I would have to ask how welcome you felt at the restaurant. Would you describe the family friendly atmosphere as a "homey"? Here's a better hypothetical that instantly clarifies everything wrong about with this idiot did: what is the absolutely worst thing that would happen had he decided to not confront the squatters at all? I know there are some philosophy nerds on this board so let me stipulate that we know for a fact the squatters would not grow up to be the next Adolph Hitler.
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Jun 3, 2015 05:17
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I only carry bitcoins, checkmate guntard.
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Jun 3, 2015 05:18
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Woozy posted:Okay great, this is something we can work with! I'd be willing to accept that Burgarello may be paranoid and vindictive.
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Jun 3, 2015 05:18
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pacmania90 posted:In what situation would you be the most justified in shooting this person dead? If someone is already pointing a gun at me, trying to quick-draw and shoot them before they can squeeze the trigger is suicidal, and not worth the pittance I carry in my wallet.
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Jun 3, 2015 05:24
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pacmania90 posted:Let's consider four hypotheticals. Hmm yes those hypotheticals sure are similar to the situation being discussed, and are very relevant
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Jun 3, 2015 05:26
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VitalSigns posted:If someone is already pointing a gun at me, trying to quick-draw and shoot them before they can squeeze the trigger is suicidal, and not worth the pittance I carry in my wallet. You're misreading the question. We're assuming that you were successful in shooting them dead.
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Jun 3, 2015 05:27
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Booourns posted:Hmm yes those hypotheticals sure are similar to the situation being discussed, and are very relevant I'm glad you agree. Would you care to give your opinion on the moral question?
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Jun 3, 2015 05:30
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Not justified in shooting that person in any of the four cases.
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Jun 3, 2015 05:30
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pacmania90 posted:That they weren't violent, that the posed no threat, and that Burgarello woke them up by "bursting in on them" We know that they weren't violent and they posed no threat. He didn't, but that's a reason not to instigate the confrontation, not a reason to confront them anyway and shoot first. As for "bursting in on them" quote:Investigators said that Burgarello had burst through the front door breaking a chain lock with such force it broke the molding around the door. Wilson said he yelled out, "You better not be in here." Woozy posted:Okay great, this is something we can work with! Well, he did tell neighbors that he should get a gun and wait for squatters, but that could mean anything. Maybe he just wanted to welcome them to the neighborhood with a pistol in a nicely wrapped gift box!
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Jun 3, 2015 05:32
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Ditocoaf posted:Not justified in shooting that person in any of the four cases. Equally unjustified in all four cases?
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Jun 3, 2015 05:32
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pacmania90 posted:You're misreading the question. We're assuming that you were successful in shooting them dead. It's a false premise, being threatened directly is different than not knowing if there is a threat. The threat in your mugging isn't the gun, it's a guy mugging you, it doesn't matter if his weapon is a gun, knife or his fists. The threat is obvious and clear. There is no ambiguity in this situation.
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Jun 3, 2015 05:32
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pacmania90 posted:Equally unjustified in all four cases? A mugging is not a crime worth killing or dying over.
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Jun 3, 2015 05:33
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I would also argue that killing a mugger is not justified either, just on the grounds that violence and theft alone isn't worthy of the death penalty.
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Jun 3, 2015 05:36
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ElCondemn posted:I would also argue that killing a mugger is not justified either, just on the grounds that violence and theft alone isn't worthy of the death penalty. How would you stop a violent man with a gun? I feel that you're being unrealistic.
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Jun 3, 2015 05:42
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Dirk the Average posted:A mugging is not a crime worth killing or dying over. You're not answering my question.
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Jun 3, 2015 05:45
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pacmania90 posted:How would you stop a violent man with a gun? I feel that you're being unrealistic. I wouldn't stop someone from stealing my wallet, I wouldn't want to escalate the situation into something more deadly.
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Jun 3, 2015 05:46
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I like "shelters are available in Reno." Like, they're right there in the phone book! That means they must not be at capacity.
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Jun 3, 2015 05:50
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pacmania90 posted:How would you stop a violent man with a gun? I feel that you're being unrealistic. You feel it's realistic for your average person to try to stop someone with a gun? Why not give him what he wants and hope he moves on, instead of definitely increasing the violence. Living with the weight of killing a person doesn't seem like it's worth ... well anything.
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Jun 3, 2015 05:53
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pacmania90 posted:How would you stop a violent man with a gun? I feel that you're being unrealistic. Well, I'm not ElCondemn, but in my case I stopped him by letting him take my wallet. It was easier in every way than either killing him or dying. I recommend this strategy for everyone else who finds themselves in this situation.
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Jun 3, 2015 05:56
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pacmania90 posted:You're misreading the question. We're assuming that you were successful in shooting them dead. If I genuinely thought the person meant to kill me, and wasn't just after my wallet, then shooting in self-defense is justifiable. If he says "give me your wallet and I'll let you live" I would of course give him my wallet because it's not worth killing over and definitely not worth risking my life in a gun battle. These aren't really analogous situations though, because the squatters didn't seek out the man and confront him. It would be more like: if someone steals something I own, and I track them down, follow them into a dark place, jump out and pull a gun on them, and they make a sudden movement am I now justified in firing to protect my life in the dangerous situation I created?
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Jun 3, 2015 05:57
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pacmania90 posted:You're not answering my question. I am answering your question. You just don't like the answer. When I say that it's not worth killing or dying over a mugging, I mean it. There is no justification for pulling out a gun and shooting the mugger in those situations. So yes, it's equally unjustified in all cases in that none of the situations that you presented are a justification for shooting the mugger.
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Jun 3, 2015 05:59
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SedanChair posted:I like "shelters are available in Reno." Like, they're right there in the phone book! That means they must not be at capacity. I like that after living somewhere for three years and listing it as her address on her driver's license and attempting to get her tenancy legally recognized, sleeping there instead of on the street was more reckless than busting open a door and firing at the first movement inside that makes you jumpy. I don't see why we even have a court system, can't each side just submit an accounting of their real property so we know who is in the right.
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Jun 3, 2015 06:04
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I guess my hypothetical was poorly considered because none of you are engaging with it. I wanted to use it to examine the relationship between risk assessment and self defense, as well as one's responsibility for one's level of risk assessment.
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Jun 3, 2015 06:06
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pacmania90 posted:I guess my hypothetical was poorly considered because none of you are engaging with it. I wanted to use it to examine the relationship between risk assessment and self defense, as well as one's responsibility for one's level of risk assessment. Naw you just used a mugger instead of a murderer. Rookie move.
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Jun 3, 2015 06:07
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Dirk the Average posted:I am answering your question. You just don't like the answer. When I say that it's not worth killing or dying over a mugging, I mean it. There is no justification for pulling out a gun and shooting the mugger in those situations. So yes, it's equally unjustified in all cases in that none of the situations that you presented are a justification for shooting the mugger. Just so I understand you, are you saying that I would not be justified in killing someone who pointed a gun at me?
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Jun 3, 2015 06:08
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VitalSigns posted:I like that after living somewhere for three years and listing it as her address on her driver's license and attempting to get her tenancy legally recognized, sleeping there instead of on the street was more reckless than busting open a door and firing at the first movement inside that makes you jumpy. It's so perversely consistent that a man shooting a person threatening adverse possession is considered self-defense. Libertopia sounding more and more like paradise every day!
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Jun 3, 2015 06:09
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pacmania90 posted:Just so I understand you, are you saying that I would not be justified in killing someone who pointed a gun at me? You keep saying "what if Devine had had a gun". Well what if he had had a gun, would he have been justified in shooting someone who burst through the door and pointed a gun at him?
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Jun 3, 2015 06:11
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pacmania90 posted:Just so I understand you, are you saying that I would not be justified in killing someone who pointed a gun at me? No. If you were then people would be justified in shooting police all the time when they sweep crowds at protests. The person pointing the gun is in the wrong, but that doesn't mean you get to kill them. Less shooting, not more. It's pretty simple.
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Jun 3, 2015 06:11
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pacmania90 posted:I guess my hypothetical was poorly considered because none of you are engaging with it. I wanted to use it to examine the relationship between risk assessment and self defense, as well as one's responsibility for one's level of risk assessment. You'll find that's because few of us consider self-defense to be a particularly valid method of solving a problem. Sure, I can fire a gun on a firing range with some degree of accuracy, but damned if I would have any self-defense skills to speak of in the heat of the moment. Hell, I've never even practiced a martial art, for that matter. If I have a serious problem that could involve violence between myself and another person, I will involve the police. That's their job, and in theory, that's more or less the point of having a police force. If I cannot involve the police immediately, I will attempt to de-escalate any situation as quickly as possible and involve the police as soon as possible. Self-defense and shooting the mugger and all that stuff are a really nice fantasy (if you're in to that sort of thing), but it really is just a fantasy. We aren't action movie heroes that will pull off some crazy bullshit to defend ourselves, and in all likelihood we'll just end up shot or stabbed if we try. Of course, if you have military or police training, then it's not at all out of the realm of possibility to defend yourself, but without that, there's no real point in thinking about it. pacmania90 posted:Just so I understand you, are you saying that I would not be justified in killing someone who pointed a gun at me? It's a terrible idea. It also depends on what their objective is. If they're just trying to mug you, it's not worth the risk - you're better off just handing over your wallet and canceling your cards. It sucks, but you're not out much more than some time and the cash you had on hand. Odds are they'll catch the guy when he tries to go and access your accounts or something. If you know the other person wants to kill you, then you have justification for self-defense, yes. It's still not a good idea, and you're better off trying to do anything other than engage in a gunfight. Killing someone is AN ABSOLUTE LAST loving RESORT. It is not and should never be the first option chosen. I find it frankly a little disgusting how much you're interesting in finding out ways to justifiably kill someone. Dirk the Average fucked around with this message at 06:16 on Jun 3, 2015 |
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Jun 3, 2015 06:11
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I'd judo chop their nuts off.
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Jun 3, 2015 06:13
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A while ago I watched the first Death Wish for the first time, and I can't help but think of that warped-rear end movie (and its sequels that you'd have to put a gun to my head to make me watch) as I read the last...how many pages has this been going on? edit: all these ridiculous fantasies are predicated on the mugger having no experience at fighting or shooting, despite being, you know, an armed criminal. Samurai Sanders fucked around with this message at 06:19 on Jun 3, 2015 |
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Jun 3, 2015 06:14
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VitalSigns posted:You keep saying "what if Devine had had a gun". Well what if he had had a gun, would he have been justified in shooting someone who burst through the door and pointed a gun at him? I've never once said that though. I personally believe that whether he had a gun is irrelevant.
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Jun 3, 2015 06:15
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Bob James posted:I'd judo chop their nuts off. But what if they know kung fu.
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Jun 3, 2015 06:16
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Samurai Sanders posted:A while ago I watched the first Death Wish for the first time, and I can't help but think of that warped-rear end movie (and its sequels that you'd have to put a gun to my head to make me watch) as I read the last...how many pages has this been going on?
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Jun 3, 2015 06:17
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