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jim truds posted:I feel like Beast would work if it wasn't all about embracing your beast side. You have to feed it but if you can feed it through small things, intentionally not harming others, you get rewarded. Falling all the way into being a monster leads to a loss of the human part of you. I think it would also make sense if the Beast was more like a Geist. It is part of your soul but is a lot older then you and you are not it's first ride. Isn't this kind of like Changeling the Lost, though? You can keep your Fae side in check and remain human, or you can go full-on Wyrd 10 and turn into Cute Elf Hitler.
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Jun 3, 2015 13:10
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Free Cog posted:I guess some folks must like it, though, cause it's been funded with an extra thousand as of right now. If my circle of friends is any indication, there are enough people who just want a complete core book collection, or are in the ttg media industry, to get the book published. There are also people who backed the book on instinct, and are going back to read it, resulting in a long, constant stream of "oh no, white wolf, honey, no."
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Jun 3, 2015 13:10
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Luminous Obscurity posted:Like people have said earlier, the worst thing is that the core concept is pretty cool. Like I really dig the idea of Heroes as these terrifying forces of will and pride who hear everyone saying "Someone kill Smaug" and go "I'll kill Smaug." That baseline idea of the only person willing to challenge Smaug being a delusional egomaniac is cool. There's a story in that. Same with the idea of someone being a horrible monster by nature and coming to terms with that and their role in the ecosystem of the world. Even the question of "Does someone who's joy comes from the suffering of others deserve a chance at happiness?" can make for some good pathos. The problem comes from the fact the writers can't admit even with this "original biting deconstruction" on the protagonist in the Hero Cycle, the Hero is going to remain sympathetic. Rather than own it, because hey writing a Hero supplement in two years will also you get a bunch of cash, they took it 11 on it hoping that sympathy would stop. Which is a shame because a nuanced "Beasts create their own Heroes that take them down who then get praised and defended for it by the Public, even though 50% of the time they are far, far worse and the other times just the opposite side of the same coin." makes for an interesting game. Maybe you can redirect a reasonable Hero to meet his needs by directing him to the rear end in a top hat Beast who eats people a block over who's encroaching on your turf. Or the Changeling luring children to the Fae to avoid being taken himself. Makes it more compelling when the fanatic Hero isn't going to talk to you, just gun you down. Also there is no form of advancement or threat for Beasts in this game oddly. It's a game of survival, but that's about it. I mean as the "crossover" game, you think they'd have something cool to nudge you or encourage you storywise to interact with other supernaturals.
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Jun 3, 2015 13:22
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Free Cog posted:
Actually considering how previous OPP kickstarters have done, this is pretty slow. OK, full confession: I playtested Beast. We were specifically directed to focus on mechanics that were bad or didn't make sense. We were also told, in response to one mechanic someone brought up, that no major reworks were being done at this point. I got the distinct impression that they were uninterested in story or theme related feedback. My personal accomplishments are getting the Ugallu to actually have an atavism that lets them loving fly since there wasn't one in the original playtest document, they could just jump really high. I also like to think I was the reason they took out the Hero slang. After the leak Matt stopped updating the playtest document entirely which made it really hard to see what feedback was relevant and what wasn't. There just wasn't a lot of communication from him on Anything after the first couple of weeks, and most of it was kind of terse. My group remained enthusiastic for most of our playtest, but frankly I think we missed out on a lot of stuff that needed looking at. We didn't use any Heroes at all. By the end I think our Storyteller was kind of sick of the whole thing. I regret that we didn't call out the real serious issues with the game that people are bringing up now, but I also don't think it would've mattered if we had. Bonus: I note that the Lair trait Toxic is still utterly vague about numbers. By the book I can declare that my Lair has a toxicity of ten million and I can pair it with Poor Light so I can inflict this on an entire area that's slightly dim, despite my specifically calling this out.
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Jun 3, 2015 13:23
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LatwPIAT posted:Being a miserable and hateful person, I'd say that the writing's been on the wall for a while. Rather a lot of OPP's output lately has been heavily influenced by the oWoD thematically, with all that entails. Rather worse, it's been very influenced by some of the earlier oWoD content. Late-era oWoD was beginning to become the WW that we all respect and Demon: the Fallen is still an incredible piece of work. The extremely simplistic approach of Beast is very much more of a 1E/2E oWoD style than it is the Revised era. In a few ways it reminds me of CtD and I think that may have something to do with the problems involved, as Blackhat is also on the force for C20.
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Jun 3, 2015 15:12
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Loomer posted:Rather worse, it's been very influenced by some of the earlier oWoD content. Late-era oWoD was beginning to become the WW that we all respect and Demon: the Fallen is still an incredible piece of work. The extremely simplistic approach of Beast is very much more of a 1E/2E oWoD style than it is the Revised era. In a few ways it reminds me of CtD and I think that may have something to do with the problems involved, as Blackhat is also on the force for C20. It seems like every 8 years or so they need to gently remind themselves that "There is a reason we did Revised". 2007 had
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Jun 3, 2015 15:19
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On the other hand, I'm pretty eagerly awaiting Wraith 20.
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Jun 3, 2015 15:23
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I find myself trying to re-evaluate Beast more favorably because gently caress if I want to be on the same side as "Lord Raziere" in anything ever.
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Jun 3, 2015 15:36
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CommissarMega posted:Isn't this kind of like Changeling the Lost, though? You can keep your Fae side in check and remain human, or you can go full-on Wyrd 10 and turn into Cute Elf Hitler. I would say that former is the first half of Mad Max: Fury Road- where you run from the horrible abuser and compromise and suffer from the abuser's pursuit- while the latter is the second half of Mad Max: Fury Road- where you turn back and fight your way to reclaim the horrible abuser's kingdom and spot and maybe turn into a more moral version of your abuser (unless you also enact changes to the system that you might not be able to understand or control).* *sidenote: the C:tL reading of MM:FR would be a depressing and fatalistic one because C:tL is a depressing and fatalistic game, not because MM:FR is inherently either of those things as presented
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Jun 3, 2015 16:12
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unseenlibrarian posted:I find myself trying to re-evaluate Beast more favorably because gently caress if I want to be on the same side as "Lord Raziere" in anything ever. This is the bargain Beast is counting on you to make in order not to write it off. I'm kind of glad this book is as irredeemable as it is, because instead of trying to salvage any of it my table can just ignore it and its fluff completely. Beasts are such boutique dev-insert characters, as a splat, that you lose literally not a single bit of texture from the nWoD by just pretending this book never happened. That's a success, right? I mean it's a huge, massive failure. But it's also a success.
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Jun 3, 2015 16:12
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The mechanics are mostly salvageable. Beyond that...well, everyone has off days.
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Jun 3, 2015 16:26
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unseenlibrarian posted:I find myself trying to re-evaluate Beast more favorably because gently caress if I want to be on the same side as "Lord Raziere" in anything ever. Lord Raziere is the kind of person who thinks FATAL is bad. 
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Jun 3, 2015 16:31
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Who the heck is Lord Raziere?
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Jun 3, 2015 16:33
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Crion posted:This is the bargain Beast is counting on you to make in order not to write it off.
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Jun 3, 2015 16:35
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Kavak posted:Who the heck is Lord Raziere? Each and every one of us.
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Jun 3, 2015 16:46
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Kavak posted:Who the heck is Lord Raziere? A poster on various roleplaying forums. Their two defining characteristics are an unwillingness to play anything but shining paragons of good and justice and a complete disregard for capital letters. Amusingly, Raziere also seems to really like playing White Wolf/OPP games.
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Jun 3, 2015 16:47
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You forgot "I can't understand how anyone can play a human character!"
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Jun 3, 2015 16:48
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Also "I want to play a Solar only I don't like the color yellow."
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Jun 3, 2015 16:58
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Was he the guy that correctly identified Gilgamesh as an inferior, now-obsolete precursor to Homestuck?
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Jun 3, 2015 17:00
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Ferrinus posted:Was he the guy that correctly identified Gilgamesh as an inferior, now-obsolete precursor to Homestuck? He was the guy who claimed that "[S] Descend" was more epic than any actual epic poetry, yes.
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Jun 3, 2015 17:10
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Crion posted:This is the bargain Beast is counting on you to make in order not to write it off. In its defense, it's given me some cool ideas for what a cooler version of Beast would be.
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Jun 3, 2015 17:17
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Luminous Obscurity posted:In its defense, it's given me some cool ideas for what a cooler version of Beast would be. First, that's not really a defense. Second, I've yet to see any "cooler version of Beast" that didn't creep further thematically into another nWoD line's already established niche. Most of the New Versions of the game presented here involve colonizing Changeling or Wraith's game-space.
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Jun 3, 2015 17:22
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Luminous Obscurity posted:In its defense, it's given me some cool ideas for what a cooler version of Beast would be. Someone earlier said that Beasts actually work really well as unassuming antagonists that work their way into your inner circle and use you as a safe way to feed and protect themselves but when the chips are down they're really torturing mass murderers who can break into your house while you're away with no warning and do whatever the gently caress they want because of some nebulous connection to the ur-beast.
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Jun 3, 2015 17:22
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The entire tone of Beast strikes me as being like the Serial Killer's Convention in Sandman, only without that pesky Dream showing up to tell them that, no, you're weird and awful and really not that important.
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Jun 3, 2015 17:33
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What nWoD really needed in its second edition was an unrestricted connective ur-beast to unify the gamelines under a single umbrella, held in the hand of an obvious creator-insert faction that is in text referred to as Good and Pure and Worthy, and have it textually established that all the other gamelines are totally cool with this arrangement.
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Jun 3, 2015 17:36
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Kurieg posted:Someone earlier said that Beasts actually work really well as unassuming antagonists that work their way into your inner circle and use you as a safe way to feed and protect themselves but when the chips are down they're really torturing mass murderers who can break into your house while you're away with no warning and do whatever the gently caress they want because of some nebulous connection to the ur-beast. This is pretty much why I'm backing. The fluff with them is exactly as weird and off-putting as everyone is saying, and I can't imagine running a game for Beast PCs, but I actually really like the (correct, if unintentional) reading of them as being basically irredeemable monsters. I think they'll make fun antagonists.
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Jun 3, 2015 17:38
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Ferrinus posted:Was he the guy that correctly identified Gilgamesh as an inferior, now-obsolete precursor to Homestuck? What a maroon, Homestuck is clearly the successor to Ulysses.
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Jun 3, 2015 17:39
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Gerund posted:What nWoD really needed in its second edition was an unrestricted connective ur-beast to unify the gamelines under a single umbrella, held in the hand of an obvious creator-insert faction that is in text referred to as Good and Pure and Worthy, and have it textually established that all the other gamelines are totally cool with this arrangement. *squints dubiously at Beast, cranes neck and sticks out tongue a bit, suddenly starts with inspiration before reaching down and filling in Beast's sunglasses as darkly as possible*
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Jun 3, 2015 17:39
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Also, why would any beast in their right mind actually indulge their passions rather than just finding a friendly vampire to pal around with. There's no threat of overfeeding and you can game the system to only get as many dots as you need. I mean sure if you're hovering around 1-3 hunger then an exceptional success will just bounce you up to 9. But if you're anywhere above 5 then feeding the normal way is loving dangerous.
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Jun 3, 2015 17:44
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Mors Rattus posted:Pretty much, yes, they seem to suffer from the belief that because they didn't ask for this or choose it, they have no culpability and no one has any right to be mad at them for being monstrous. It's toned down some from where it was in the leak, though. Aside from some minority of vampires, what player splat in the WoD asked to be what they are
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Jun 3, 2015 17:52
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Crion posted:First, that's not really a defense.  Tezzor posted:Aside from some minority of vampires, what player splat in the WoD asked to be what they are Only Sin-Eaters. Which I hope is something we see Geist 2E delve into. Edit: You could argue Demons, too. Luminous Obscurity fucked around with this message at 18:05 on Jun 3, 2015 |
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Jun 3, 2015 17:55
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Tezzor posted:Aside from some minority of vampires, what player splat in the WoD asked to be what they are You could maybe argue mages, as all human souls cry out for enlightenment and ascension or some garbage and the will of the Exarchs holds them down.
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Jun 3, 2015 17:59
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Tezzor posted:Aside from some minority of vampires, what player splat in the WoD asked to be what they are Demons certainly, although that choice made them a good deal more human rather than less.
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Jun 3, 2015 18:05
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Not even, though. Demons mostly fall by accident, don't they?
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Jun 3, 2015 18:06
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Ferrinus posted:Not even, though. Demons mostly fall by accident, don't they? Depends. I think most just glitch out, but some decide that they disagree with the orders the God-Machine gave them and that causes them to fall.
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Jun 3, 2015 18:12
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Demons always fall willfully. An angel that "glitched out" would be an exile and not Unchained.
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Jun 3, 2015 18:14
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I'd swear there were examples of angels who didn't realize what they were doing until they did it, like they'd start experimenting with something or decide they could do something better etc. etc. and oops! No going back now.
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Jun 3, 2015 18:19
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Crion posted:Second, I've yet to see any "cooler version of Beast" that didn't creep further thematically into another nWoD line's already established niche. Most of the New Versions of the game presented here involve colonizing Changeling or Wraith's game-space. I had an idea where you could do Beast as a secret "alien invasion" type game where Beasts are merely summoned from the Primordial Dream and disguise themselves in human flesh. Heroes also come from the Primordial Dream, because it's a primal "Good vs Evil" sort of place based on our hopes and fears. Beasts and Heroes get called down in moments where humans experience pure fear, and they're both sides of the same coin. As a Beast, you could try to find your way back home because this world sucks, attempt to "build your legend" and try to take over the world, or make peace with a Hero and possibly fuse into some kind of super being or something. Thing is though, that still sounds a lot like Demon: The Descent. So I just end up thinking, "Why don't I just run Demon: The Descent again?"
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Jun 3, 2015 18:20
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Beasts could be a kind of monster mages summon or a kind of monster Keepers send after their escaped slaves.
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Jun 3, 2015 18:22
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It's abundantly clear from the book that the standard reason for Falling is accidental, or oblivious pushing too far. Even in cases of willful disobedience the reasoning is "I refuse to kill this baby" and not "I wish to become a Demon." By contrast there are people in Vampire literally begging to be vampires.
Tezzor fucked around with this message at 18:28 on Jun 3, 2015 |
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Jun 3, 2015 18:24
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