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I repeat myself: Dragon's Dogma Beast is probably the best way to piece together the basic elements of what we've been given into something that's actually radical, even if it'd step on Changeling's toes somewhat. The narrative is the villain, "good" beasts catalyze positive change and create true heroes worthy of making the world a better place, while "bad" beasts are the ones the game seems madly in love with. As for the idea of making it more like a terminal illness, I actually have my own entertained thoughts about a whole splat for that I've talked about once or twice in these threads (think Cronenberg.) Really, the most damning indictment I've seen of Beast so far is something a friend of mine said. He doesn't play World of Darkness games much, and doesn't really know a lot about them beyond vague distate for the 90s WoD he tried, and vague approval of stuff I've told him about Demon. I showed him the Beast draft, told him to focus on the overall fluff, and asked him to tell me what he thought. He said "a lot of this reads like it was written by a school shooter."
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Jun 3, 2015 20:45
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It's time to go Active Kraken.
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Jun 3, 2015 20:47
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Chernobyl Peace Prize posted:Add to this that your presence inspires actual good person heroes to start being more Galahad and less gaston (but who still feel a compulsion to track and murder the beast on the side) and you'd have a legitimately interesting narrative tension built in. You're the worst but you bring out the best. That would be pretty cool, and also give a good hook for the struggle. Of course you don't like hurting people, but if having to play a villain makes other people shining beacons in this world of sin, should you try to get rid of it?
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Jun 3, 2015 20:48
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Mormon Star Wars posted:Nothing says "Your character matters to the world. He makes a difference. He is a dragon." like knowing that he has caused completely mundane, everyday difficulties for unremarkable people. You could twist even that in an interesting plot point: your Beasts hungers for pain, to spread misery all over the world, to spit fire and brimstone on crowds of helpless farmers, and all you are giving it is the costernation and worry of a rich guy dropped in a bad part of town. It sort of keeps it in check, but it also wets its appetite. Daeren posted:I repeat myself: Dragon's Dogma Beast is probably the best way to piece together the basic elements of what we've been given into something that's actually radical, even if it'd step on Changeling's toes somewhat. The narrative is the villain, "good" beasts catalyze positive change and create true heroes worthy of making the world a better place, while "bad" beasts are the ones the game seems madly in love with. As for the idea of making it more like a terminal illness, I actually have my own entertained thoughts about a whole splat for that I've talked about once or twice in these threads (think Cronenberg.) Dragon's Dogma Beast being the one that sees the future and tries to help people reaching their full potential by being a monster at the right time? It's an interesting concept, but I'm not so sure about it, because I get the impression there's not much wiggle room there, and it could get repetitive fast. e: I am asking that because I don't remember a Beast variation proposed here that was like what you described. paradoxGentleman fucked around with this message at 20:54 on Jun 3, 2015 |
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Jun 3, 2015 20:51
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paradoxGentleman posted:Dragon's Dogma Beast being the one that sees the future and tries to help people reaching their full potential by being a monster at the right time? It's an interesting concept, but I'm not so sure about it, because I get the impression there's not much wiggle room there, and it could get repetitive fast. Nah, being the one where the villains are heroes who didn't make the cosmic cut and are shackled into serving as foil for heroes who might actually succeed.
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Jun 3, 2015 20:53
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paradoxGentleman posted:You could twist even that in an interesting plot point: your Beasts hungers for pain, to spread misery all over the world, to spit fire and brimstone on crowds of helpless farmers, and all you are giving it is the costernation and worry of a rich guy dropped in a bad part of town. It sort of keeps it in check, but it also wets its appetite. So A Beast I Am...
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Jun 3, 2015 20:54
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Daeren posted:I repeat myself: Dragon's Dogma Beast is probably the best way to piece together the basic elements of what we've been given into something that's actually radical, even if it'd step on Changeling's toes somewhat. The narrative is the villain, "good" beasts catalyze positive change and create true heroes worthy of making the world a better place, while "bad" beasts are the ones the game seems madly in love with. As for the idea of making it more like a terminal illness, I actually have my own entertained thoughts about a whole splat for that I've talked about once or twice in these threads (think Cronenberg.) I'm totally down for this or for the Hero Raising Sim 2015 idea you had.
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Jun 3, 2015 20:56
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Daeren posted:Nah, being the one where the villains are heroes who didn't make the cosmic cut and are shackled into serving as foil for heroes who might actually succeed. Oh yes, that has some serious potential. It could also make the Beast somewhat easier to empathize with, because at the end of the day it's just a being that tried and failed to be hero, which is still somewhat noble. paradoxGentleman fucked around with this message at 21:06 on Jun 3, 2015 |
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Jun 3, 2015 20:56
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I just noticed something interesting on the rewards list on the Kickstarter page, sorry if someone mentioned this:quote:No More Heroes: The Beast PDF as well as a PDF of Hunter: the Vigil (1st or 2nd Edition depending on which is current at the time these rewards are sent). So, it sounds like a full 2nd Edition is planned for Hunter instead of just Mortal Remains, but not Geist or Mummy right now.
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Jun 3, 2015 21:01
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Yeah, Beasts need to be monsters that spur humans to genuine heroism and/or they need to have shades of the new Godzilla wherein they're sacred beasts of the apocalypse whose rampages somehow consecrate or purify even as they destroy.
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Jun 3, 2015 21:05
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Kavak posted:I just noticed something interesting on the rewards list on the Kickstarter page, sorry if someone mentioned this: I think they just know that a Geist 2E is going to fall beyond the publication date for Beast, I'm pretty sure it's got to be in planning.
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Jun 3, 2015 21:06
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I'm still trying to figure out in what possible universe having a Vampire be in love with you is an advantage in any way. Either it's fake or its real. If it's fake, they're worming their way into their life in order to push your buttons/pull your strings and make you completely dependent on them and subservient to them. And that's the good outcome. The bad outcome is they're actually in love with you. (The worst outcome is that it's true, eternal love.) JDCorley fucked around with this message at 21:18 on Jun 3, 2015 |
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Jun 3, 2015 21:16
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JDCorley posted:I'm still trying to figure out in what possible universe having a Vampire be in love with you is an advantage in any way. insert twilight joke here
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Jun 3, 2015 21:29
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Nothing wrong with a little vampire love
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Jun 3, 2015 21:33
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You know how cats bring home dead mice?
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Jun 3, 2015 21:35
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I just got done looking through it...aside from a few presentation problems I think the thread's overreacting a little. I think it's pretty clear this is a game that bridges between Vampire and Werewolf, which are both also games where you've got an internal monster. (Geist would qualify for this if they ever really worked out what the "partner" spirit in Geist really was.) I see the stuff about normal people being both victims and somehow protected by/given meaning by Beasts and the people who are them as being fairly similar to some Vampire and Werewolf philosophies of various factions. Invictus have the same lovely attitude towards humans, after all, and are only satisfied with their foot on their neck (just kidding, vampires are never satisfied.) The portrayal of Heroes as somewhat pathetic is an interesting choice. It does hearken back to Changeling: the Dreaming, where your worst enemy is an ordinary guy who is so mentally straitjacketed that he unconsciously ruins you just by being nearby. It doesn't make them good antagonists in the "Hero vs. monster" sense though. In Dreaming, Autumn People were more like environmental problems. You didn't/couldn't fight them, you could only work to avoid or minimize their impact. That dynamic could benefit the "unconscious Hero" part of this game but that isn't what they're going for at all, so I don't get it. Points for trying to be crossover-friendly, but there's lots of overlooked problems there as others have noted. Don't get me wrong, I totally want to have a hot Vampire girlfriend, but let's be clear that her feelings will not be an advantage, but a violent, hateful catastrophe waiting to happen. Maybe make her a long-term Condition of some kind where I get XP when she comes around to do something monstrous. And given that Tier 1 Hunters actually seem a lot like some of the Hero descriptions (fumbling around and scratching their heads going "what the gently caress is this and how do I even start to deal with the trauma it caused me/my pals/the community?") I think that's a completely mis-aligned connection. Heroes actually remind me most of Hunters from Reckoning, right down to the not-being-quite-sure that they're doing everything they're doing. I went ahead and backed Beast; I think the mechanics look good and the core concept is all right. The "search for plot hook" thing is fine too, given that the GM still has to create a Theme and Tone for the game (you all are doing this in all your games, right?) It won't be just casting around randomly, it will make sense given those as organizing principles for the campaign world. Of course I am also the guy who liked Changeling: the Dreaming as a modern fantasy setting, so you can take that with a grain of salt if you wish.
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Jun 3, 2015 22:10
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Chernobyl Peace Prize posted:Beast: the game of strengthening your personal brand such that your detractors are trivially blacklisted and anyone sufficiently engaged becomes an advocate. This sounds like Beast: The Business School Graduate or something.
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Jun 3, 2015 22:34
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JDCorley posted:
Who's going to pay for my medical bills when this 4-ton grain of salt crushes my arms and legs?
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Jun 3, 2015 22:43
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tatankatonk posted:Who's going to pay for my medical bills when this 4-ton grain of salt crushes my arms and legs? Doctors are so banal, just rub some basil on it or something.
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Jun 3, 2015 22:49
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My table awards a fixed amount of XP after every session, and I could say that I like it because it keeps everyone at the same power level and makes it so that they don't have to think about doing something out of character for a material award. But that would be a lie, because, now, I really like it because it means I'll never have to look at a PC's fictional relationship with their fictional significant other and be like hm yes I approve of how this is playing out, have a reward
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Jun 3, 2015 22:53
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JDCorley posted:I just got done looking through it...aside from a few presentation problems I think the thread's overreacting a little. I think it's pretty clear this is a game that bridges between Vampire and Werewolf, which are both also games where you've got an internal monster. (Geist would qualify for this if they ever really worked out what the "partner" spirit in Geist really was.) I see the stuff about normal people being both victims and somehow protected by/given meaning by Beasts and the people who are them as being fairly similar to some Vampire and Werewolf philosophies of various factions. Invictus have the same lovely attitude towards humans, after all, and are only satisfied with their foot on their neck (just kidding, vampires are never satisfied.) The problem, or at least the problem I have with it, is that the book is absolutely desperate to describe these creatures that literally feed on helplessness and fear as sympathetic, mostly because we are expected to believe the examples we are shown of them "take it out" on people on assholes, as if that was okay, or by being extremely petty, which clashes with the idea of "you are a legendary monster walking the world once more". In the mean time Heroes, who are supernaturally made to hunt them down said extremely dangerous creatures and end up adopting their vices get zero compassion. Does that not feel odd or unpleasant to you?
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Jun 3, 2015 22:55
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Sure, but in Vampire the fiction showed the vampires feeding on jerkoffs and mistreating assholes too, and a bunch of the factions are absolutely about justifying their awful behavior. Like I say, it seems like a presentation problem, not necessarily a conceptual one. If you look at the vampire crossover section it explicitly says "yeah, a lot of the themes and situations are the same, but the power level/type is different, don't let Beast PCs tread on Vampire PC thematic space". That only is an important thing to say if on some level they recognize they've created vampire-esque creatures, and I think we all know vampires are straight up shitheads. tatank, you're not really following me on the Condition thing I think. 
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Jun 3, 2015 23:16
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Well I know what I'm going to be running with Beast: A BeastGeistWraith mashup that I'm tentatively calling Dead Men. All the mechanics of Beast, but the fluff of Geist and with Wraith Shadowguiding. You nearly died and a primordial horror from the Underworld gave you a second chance. Unfortunately, now it's in your head. It wasn't really a person or anything before it met you, but now it has all your memories and it seems like a lot of your personality has bled over. So now you're going around with a primordial horror that knows everything you know and mostly wants what you want in your head, speaking to you in your own voice. The bleed is two-way though, so now you have an unquenchable thirst for something awful - like ruin, or fear, or tyranny, or prey. The only the thing the Geist wants more than what you want is to fulfil your new Hunger. You want it nearly as badly as it does. Let's not forget the fact that you have a new Domain in the Underworld that you can get into through any of the Avernian Gates that you can now see, and that you have to protect. Let's not forget that ghosts and other undead monsters know what you are now. Especially the ones who possess humans and make them hunt you down for being the abomination that you are. All of the questionable bits of Beast's fluff replaced with "You would literally be dead if it wasn't for your new friend. You are now addicted to being awful." and Heroes replaced with undead white blood cells that get a rage-boner over the idea of a Geist getting a new warm body to enjoy. More Strix than fatbeard MRA. And the player to your left is the voice in your head who wants you to destroy lives. You want him to be your friend. It's better for the both of you.
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Jun 3, 2015 23:33
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Luminous Obscurity posted:You know how cats bring home dead mice?
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Jun 4, 2015 00:25
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JDCorley posted:Sure, but in Vampire the fiction showed the vampires feeding on jerkoffs and mistreating assholes too, and a bunch of the factions are absolutely about justifying their awful behavior. Like I say, it seems like a presentation problem, not necessarily a conceptual one. The difference is this. In vampire, they are presented as monsters in the text, and it's the characters who are trying to justify their behavior. in Beast, the text is adamant that beasts are innocent of all wrongdoing and that heroes are the real assholes. Beasts aren't compelled to be more moral creatures, and they completely lack a morality stat. There is no difference between a mass murdering psychopath and someone who tortures but doesn't kill. Heroes, on the other hand, are by definition terrible people, because if they were better people then they wouldn't be heroes.
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Jun 4, 2015 00:38
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Yes, that's exactly what I mean by "presentation problem". in Vampire the PCs are explicitly called monsters in the text a whole bunch of times. In Beast, definitely not as much.
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Jun 4, 2015 00:50
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People have pointed this out to Matt multiple times. Not only has it not been removed from the text, or changed, they were told it was intentional. The only thing that changed with regards to either beasts or heroes is that now there's that rule that Heroes need to be integrity 4 or lower to exist. Probably because he got tired of the "What happens if the 'someone heroic' the beast attracts is a cop or somebody's dad or something" argument.
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Jun 4, 2015 00:55
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You know who else can't have an Integrity higher than 4 to start with? Slashers. Who are also more sympathetic and easier to play than either Beasts or Heroes.
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Jun 4, 2015 01:19
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Beast sounds like it's straight up a product of Black Dog Game Factory. Not the WW imprint, the one that's a subsidiary of Pentex.
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Jun 4, 2015 01:37
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Boogaleeboo posted:You know who else can't have an Integrity higher than 4 to start with? Slashers. Who are also more sympathetic and easier to play than either Beasts or Heroes. I just checked this and started laughing really hard. Yep. Wait a second, if we delete Heroes and replace them with Slashers, do we actually lose anything? I am kind of psyched about this.
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Jun 4, 2015 01:43
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Boogaleeboo posted:You know who else can't have an Integrity higher than 4 to start with? Slashers. Who are also more sympathetic and easier to play than either Beasts or Heroes. Wait, I think I missed something because it's been a long time since I looked at Slashers. What makes Slashers sympathetic when for the most part they're Literal Horror Movie Villains? And for occasionally being Hunters that got so crazed and overzealous that they turned into Literal Horror Movie Villains.
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Jun 4, 2015 02:03
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bewilderment posted:What makes Slashers sympathetic when for the most part they're Literal Horror Movie Villains?
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Jun 4, 2015 02:08
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bewilderment posted:Wait, I think I missed something because it's been a long time since I looked at Slashers. What makes Slashers sympathetic when for the most part they're Literal Horror Movie Villains? And for occasionally being Hunters that got so crazed and overzealous that they turned into Literal Horror Movie Villains. A fallen Hunter is a tragic story. A Beast or Hero have always been and always will be unrepentant assholes.
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Jun 4, 2015 02:16
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Beast, to me, seems to step all over the same things that Changeling: the Lost does with balancing a supernatural being and a mundane life. It literally has almost every single type of character you can make with Changeling and I'm seriously curious about how this poo poo got ok'd when from all I've heard Changeling: the Lost is one of the biggest Onyx Path properties. Like literally everything I read is like why should I play this juvenile version of Changeling: the Lost. Also, Matt Mcfarland took over Promethean after the core which was Bill Bridges.
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Jun 4, 2015 02:28
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Kibner posted:A fallen Hunter is a tragic story. A Beast or Hero have always been and always will be unrepentant assholes. That, and from what I understand of Slasher, isn't it possible to have one who has an Undertaking like 'I really love killing poo poo that views me as prey' and go around playing Vampire Turnabout Dexter?
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Jun 4, 2015 02:31
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Mexcillent posted:Also, Matt Mcfarland took over Promethean after the core which was Bill Bridges. Who was responsible for the original supplements?
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Jun 4, 2015 02:51
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Kellsterik posted:Who was responsible for the original supplements? It's Mcfarland.
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Jun 4, 2015 02:53
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Kellsterik posted:Who was responsible for the original supplements? McFarland. He can make good stuff, I just hope whatever happened with Beast doesn't leak over into PtC 2.
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Jun 4, 2015 02:57
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The alchemists being shoehorned in are a little worrying, but they're not as inextricable as the Hero/Beast dynamic.
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Jun 4, 2015 03:02
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Pope Guilty posted:So A Beast I Am... Doing everything I can Holding on to what I am Pretending I'm a superman
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Jun 4, 2015 03:06
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