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Yeah that's what boggles me, frankly. Most everything McFarland's done so far has been pretty good, and the stuff Onyx Path has been making recently (putting aside Exalted) has been generally good quality compared to a lot of their history. Beast is kinda like someone ripping a wet fart into their tuba in the middle of the orchestra - unexpected, baffling, and makes everything around it seem just a bit worse by association. It's why I'm scratching my head so much.
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Jun 4, 2015 03:06
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Ferrinus posted:This looks cool. I especially appreciate how the means of modifying the dicepool are strictly defined (and TN shifting is tier-based) and how there's express support for just using existing skill/attribute ratings as a trump card rather than as interchangeable dicepool generators. I want to see that firmly supported, like with Culture 3 I can just always recognize where someone is from based on their table manners or w/e.  everything about that preview is basically like reading a reverse Wod 20th anniversary edition, where the game is actually pushed forward 20 years rather than looking back. I see Gumshoe and Burning Wheel as big influences and that is pretty darn cool.
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Jun 4, 2015 03:18
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Daeren posted:Yeah that's what boggles me, frankly. Most everything McFarland's done so far has been pretty good, and the stuff Onyx Path has been making recently (putting aside Exalted) has been generally good quality compared to a lot of their history. Beast is kinda like someone ripping a wet fart into their tuba in the middle of the orchestra - unexpected, baffling, and makes everything around it seem just a bit worse by association. It's why I'm scratching my head so much. Someone made a joke about Beast's first draft originating in the mid-1990's. It's the only theory that make sense aside from a lot of stalkery speculation about McFarland's personal life and feelings.
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Jun 4, 2015 03:21
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After looking at some of the authors' twitter interactions, I'm pretty sure that, yes, a book that amounts to a revenge fantasy against mras, gamergaters, internet trolls, or what have you is entirely in character and the book is probably the result of a need to vent about all those things.
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Jun 4, 2015 03:44
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You'd think there would be more robust mob rules if that were the goal. Or maybe I'm literalizing the wrong thing. It's baffling.
JDCorley fucked around with this message at 03:54 on Jun 4, 2015 |
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Jun 4, 2015 03:48
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Speaking of Matt McFarland, did Curse the Darkness turn out well? I remember really liking the preview stuff he was posting on LJ and then I basically stopped hearing about it until I found out the book eventually came out.
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Jun 4, 2015 03:51
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JDCorley posted:You'd think there would be more robust mob rules if that were the goal. Or maybe I"m literalizing the wrong thing. It's baffling. I really think the reason there's not enough nuance in Beast is because they made Heroes a stand in for everything they dislike, yet still feel strongly enough about to get into long pointless Twitter slapfights over. Heroes will never get a more sympathetic portrayal because they're stand ins for IRL people who they've already concluded are only either malicious and/or stupid. I don't care enough to know if they're right or wrong about that, but social media's tendency to induce outright Splitting is getting a lot more common. And that was my attempt to psychoanalyze people based on tweets, good night. Bedlamdan fucked around with this message at 04:04 on Jun 4, 2015 |
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Jun 4, 2015 03:54
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Chernobyl Peace Prize posted:Add to this that your presence inspires actual good person heroes to start being more Galahad and less gaston (but who still feel a compulsion to track and murder the beast on the side) and you'd have a legitimately interesting narrative tension built in. You're the worst but you bring out the best. If you indulge your beast, feed a lot, make life miserable for other people, then it seems natural that some kind of reaction happens in the world. Someone gets Called to Heroism, genuine St George and the Dragon, or some of the destruction you wreak leaves room for new life. But also in opposition, if you abstain from feeding in order to save your own personal morality, then perhaps the kind of Heroes that the book talks about rise up, selfish dickheads who might even become the next "host" of your beast somehow. Or perhaps it's more subtle than that, and everything around you falls to poo poo - your friends and family suffer nasty accidents and cruel twists of fate, or you cause chaos similar to Promethean's disquiet. Make it so that your very existance is a cruelty on the world - either you can control it and choose who it is inflicted upon or have some beneficial side-effects, or you can attempt to deny it and watch terror that you could have prevented spring up around you. Similar to Vampire in that the most moral choice is "kill yourself", but could be made less so if that'd just cause another Beast to spring up in your place. This also means that Beasts who mindlessly/evilly indulge will cause Heroes to spring up and murder them, so there's a selfish angle of self-preservation in it too. Some kind of rule where the Morality/Integrity of "your" Heroes is the same as your Satiety; high feeding, Saintly Heroes; sparse feeding, gun-toting MRAs. Also means that teaming up with other Splats is a good move either way - either way they'll be accomplices of a sort, but if they know the score then a Good Beast can have allies to put down the Evil Heroes that spring up, and an Evil Beast can have allies/minions to protect them from the Good Heroes that spring up, with an Evil Beast I think being able to do more Buff-work through High Satiety stuff so providing more of a benefit to their allies? Maybe it steps on the toes of a few of the other gamelines, but Designated Villain is a pretty compelling role - look at Better Angels for Superheroes, and Beast could fulfil it in a Fantasy/WoD-style way. Apologies if I'm restating stuff that's already been said throughout the thread.
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Jun 4, 2015 04:04
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JDCorley posted:You'd think there would be more robust mob rules if that were the goal. Or maybe I'm literalizing the wrong thing. It's baffling. You don't engage trolls in mass combat, they feed off of each other and can rationalize away all your arguments because everyone they know is agreeing with them. You take them out one by one because if you can corner a troll in a lie you can destroy them. Which is basically how Heroes work.
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Jun 4, 2015 04:09
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The Red List, by the Other Matt McSomething, is finally out.
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Jun 4, 2015 04:22
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Gerund posted:
Gumshoe, yes. Burning Wheel . . . well, I'll call it a *reaction* to it.
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Jun 4, 2015 04:24
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MalcolmSheppard posted:Gumshoe, yes. Burning Wheel . . . well, I'll call it a *reaction* to it. If I can't script my turns in Adventure 2.0 I am ~out~
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Jun 4, 2015 04:37
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Swagger Dagger posted:If I can't script my turns in Adventure 2.0 I am ~out~ FInally, I can get my FFXII Gambits in table-top rpgs. When Enemy=Vampire Use Fira.
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Jun 4, 2015 04:48
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MonsieurChoc posted:FInally, I can get my FFXII Gambits in table-top rpgs. It was nice of FF12 to prove through game mechanics that the gameplay of 90% of JRPGs is mindless pattern-recognition in combat. I'm told that when WoW allowed conditional, multi-command macros, you could also get by just mashing a single button. Something I'm curious about because I only read bits of Promethean once and never owned it. Prometheans already have Disquiet which turns people against them with the torches and pitchforks, right? How are Beast's Heroes sufficiently different from that? It seems like a reinvention of a game mechanic that a different line already has.
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Jun 4, 2015 05:02
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bewilderment posted:It was nice of FF12 to prove through game mechanics that the gameplay of 90% of JRPGs is mindless pattern-recognition in combat. I'm told that when WoW allowed conditional, multi-command macros, you could also get by just mashing a single button. Disquiet is a bit more broad and can generate emotions other than shear hatred. It's still negative emotions, but Disquiet generates emotions of obsession whether that's the desire for simple destruction or to tear the Promethean apart to see how it ticks without any regard for its pain and suffering. Heroes do step on those toes a bit though.
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Jun 4, 2015 05:23
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Okay, this might be a dumb question but what happens when a vampire drinks the blood of another supernatural? For some reason this question's been bugging me, and I'm not sure if I'd want to purchase a rulebook to find out 
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Jun 4, 2015 05:26
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CommissarMega posted:Okay, this might be a dumb question but what happens when a vampire drinks the blood of another supernatural? For some reason this question's been bugging me, and I'm not sure if I'd want to purchase a rulebook to find out IIRC, Werewolf blood is like high octane fuel, the vampire would get wired and I think it's like 2.5 vitae per health level? Mage blood makes vampires trip balls and might give you hallucinations and derangements. Changeling blood tastes really good. Promethean blood tastes horrible, the vampire needs to inflict twice as much damage to get the normal amount of blood, and they're affected by Disquiet while they're doing it.
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Jun 4, 2015 05:42
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I only know stuff from oWoD, as one or two the Storyteller's Guides for VtM went into how Supernatural blood affects stuff, though I think nWoD kept both Werewolf and Mage effects roughly similar? Werewolf - double yield of blood drained, but take a penalty to rolls to resist frenzy. In oWoD it was +2 or +3 to difficulty as long as the blood remained in your system, which would probably translate to a dice pool penalty for nWoD, maybe check the corebook or ST's handbook for Requiem see if it says anything? Mage - visions/hallucinations, or potentially derangements I think? Again check the books for clarification, or alternatively interpret the visions as similar to temporary/uncontrolled Mage Sight of whatever Path of Mage it was? Changeling - oWoD had Changeling blood as a sortof happydrug for Vampires I think, like blood cocaine or just general Emotion-rich blood idk. nWoD Changelings are very different, so unlikely to still stand, but possibly still some emotion-related effect. None of the other lines really carried through or could be fed on, being either human, a human host, or dead/undead. Promethean blood is less nourishing because it's not real, I remember hearing but no idea if that's true or not.
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Jun 4, 2015 05:49
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Ambi posted:I only know stuff from oWoD, as one or two the Storyteller's Guides for VtM went into how Supernatural blood affects stuff, though I think nWoD kept both Werewolf and Mage effects roughly similar? I think Promethean referenced it in one book or another. None of the other lines have said much of anything so who knows what happens with a Demon or a Mummy. Presumably there's nothing specifically wrong with Sin-Eater blood until they turn it into ectoplasm and good luck getting Vitae out of that without the right tricks.
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Jun 4, 2015 06:11
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OWoD Changeling drug was basically high-octane hallucinogens for vampires and there were stories ranging from "I drank a little Changeling blood and talked to hallucinations for a few hours" to "I drank a Changeling and suddenly it was a week later and I didn't know where I was."
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Jun 4, 2015 06:13
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It's like joose for vampires. You drink a few drops of Changeling and suddenly you've been put on the Red List, spent all your money on a piano you don't know how to play, and it's not Monday anywhere.
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Jun 4, 2015 06:23
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Kavak posted:It's like joose for vampires. You drink a few drops of Changeling and suddenly you've been put on the Red List, spent all your money on a piano you don't know how to play, and it's not Monday anywhere. I would definitely play Vampire: The Hangover.
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Jun 4, 2015 06:25
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Kavak posted:It's like joose for vampires. You drink a few drops of Changeling and suddenly you've been put on the Red List, spent all your money on a piano you don't know how to play, and it's not Monday anywhere. Eyeballing the correct dose is just so difficult!
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Jun 4, 2015 06:26
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 Beast is the story of a monster fighting off the victims created when they act in accordance with their nature against a society that can't accept their right to exist and act on their harmful urges.
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Jun 4, 2015 07:51
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NutritiousSnack posted:
All this talk and I totally forgot that in attempting to be socially considerate, they set up the accidental reading that LGBT people (and minorities, and all out-groups) are abusive sociopathic deviants that can at best sublimate their urges 
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Jun 4, 2015 08:10
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Thanks for the replies guys. For some reason, it's been bugging me for a bit.Daeren posted:All this talk and I totally forgot that in attempting to be socially considerate, they set up the accidental reading that LGBT people (and minorities, and all out-groups) are abusive sociopathic deviants that can at best sublimate their urges Who's that guy?
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Jun 4, 2015 11:32
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CommissarMega posted:Thanks for the replies guys. For some reason, it's been bugging me for a bit. William Tecumseh Sherman, hero of the Civil War.
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Jun 4, 2015 11:37
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CommissarMega posted:Okay, this might be a dumb question but what happens when a vampire drinks the blood of another supernatural? For some reason this question's been bugging me, and I'm not sure if I'd want to purchase a rulebook to find out In 2nd ed, nothing if you haven't bought the Merit that lets you feed off of other supernaturals. I believe it's ST's discretion as to whether there are any weird side-effects like ragemode if you drink a Werewolf, hallucinations if you drink a Mage, etc. If you've got the Merit, they're like Kindred blood to you, without addictions and blood bonding. Even the Merit is like "lol good luck drinking Werewolves u dummy", though
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Jun 4, 2015 13:13
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While it's not called out anywhere, I would assume that Demon blood would be the same as normal blood since the body itself is pretty explicitly meant to read as normal as possible in every regard. Maybe a particularly picky vampire would go like "huh, this tastes slightly off for some reason."
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Jun 4, 2015 14:28
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Was anyone else kind of disappointed when they got rid of the whole "you can drink from other supers but it's also got these side effects" deal? Because I always thought that was a wonderful bit of flavor (and led to some great misadventures, like trying to kidnap a werewolf for their crazy efficient blood).
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Jun 4, 2015 15:20
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Daeren posted:All this talk and I totally forgot that in attempting to be socially considerate, they set up the accidental reading that LGBT people (and minorities, and all out-groups) are abusive sociopathic deviants that can at best sublimate their urges *Cultural Studies hat on* That's a bit of a basic reading. Samuel Delany and Clive Barker have both represented queerness this way in their fiction to represent its defiance of heteronormative power structures and as something that is seen as immanent inside people, but transgressive through the act. You have to take a bit of a step beyond seeing the fiction as pure world simulation with the thinnest layer of allegory on top. You're allowed some leeway because of the bare fact that we are not opening a window into a self-sustaining other world with real moral actors, so people doing and being one thing can broadly be people doing/being something else, and various forms of mayhem can stand in for more reasonable acts. The parts of Beast that work are strongly evocative of Barker's Cabal/Nightbreed, which is a pretty blatant queer text. Boone is "coming out" as a monster and going through a process of queer self-definition, including having his condition treated as a psychiatric pathology, trouble with the law, a tortuous period of self-acceptance, encountering people who have failed to do the same and finally, community. A good reading of Beast would be about these things. Maybe the rendering of heroes is off a bit then by not bringing their passion/nature from the same basic place, since we know that so often, hatred comes from a refusal to recognize what is in yourself. *hat off*
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Jun 4, 2015 15:20
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Yawgmoth posted:Was anyone else kind of disappointed when they got rid of the whole "you can drink from other supers but it's also got these side effects" deal? Because I always thought that was a wonderful bit of flavor (and led to some great misadventures, like trying to kidnap a werewolf for their crazy efficient blood). In almost every Mage game I've been in, as soon as it is revealed that Vampire blood contains Quintessence/Tass/Mana, someone has tried to kidnap a vampire and keep them in their basement as a source of power. It never goes well, and is usually never tried again in that group of players, but in the next game... Hasn't happened yet in the current game, but while I was unable to play during heavy exam season, by mage character was held captive my vampires because magical LSD blood, so I guess the recurrent vampire related kidnapping happened the way you'd expect for once.
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Jun 4, 2015 15:28
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MalcolmSheppard posted:*Cultural Studies hat on* Cool. What about the parts of Beast that don't work at all?
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Jun 4, 2015 16:27
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tatankatonk posted:Cool. What about the parts of Beast that don't work at all? I didn't work on it so I can't say much more, and I certainly can't answer a question that broad and leading even if I did.
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Jun 4, 2015 16:37
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CommissarMega posted:Thanks for the replies guys. For some reason, it's been bugging me for a bit. That is Jerry Sandusky, former Penn State football defensive coordinator and serial child rapist MalcolmSheppard posted:*Cultural Studies hat on* This is one hell of a smoke grenade, and in all fairness, "trivially correct" certainly is a form of correct Crion fucked around with this message at 16:45 on Jun 4, 2015 |
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Jun 4, 2015 16:40
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Crion posted:This is one hell of a smoke grenade, and in all fairness, "trivially correct" certainly is a form of correct So you're just going to ignore the fact that the thing Beast is being accused of subtextual homophobia for is a thing employed by prominent queer genre writers for a specific reason because TOO MANY WERDS. Got it. poo poo, this isn't even my project, but the level of discussion was so poor.
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Jun 4, 2015 16:50
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The Cabal/Nightbreed comparison doesn't really work because all the Midians wanted was to live peacefully. Sure, some were over-zealous in their defense of that community, but they didn't go out into the world and deliberately gently caress with regular people. I suspect that's the comparison Beast really, really wants to make but then drops the ball. It's the kind of thematic disconnect that happens when you use tropes as Lego blocks. We're supposed to see Heroes as the rear end in a top hat cops from the end of Nightbreed, but it fails because there's a strong moral case for destroying Beasts. (Whereas in NB they were essentially a stand-in for bigots or homophobes.) A more concise example is in Karloff's Frankenstein. The Monster accidentally kills a little girl, the village forms a mob to destroy him. It's a tragedy. But Beast wants us to deliberately drown the girl, and then paint the resulting mob as unjustified, pathetic assholes. It's a mess.
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Jun 4, 2015 16:50
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MalcolmSheppard posted:So you're just going to ignore the fact that the thing Beast is being accused of subtextual homophobia for is a thing employed by prominent queer genre writers for a specific reason because TOO MANY WERDS. Got it. No, it's just that your word salad was a lot more sophomoric and obtuse than you might have intended. Should we break it down line-by-line to show how it's condescending and meaningless as a defense of the thing we've been talking about?
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Jun 4, 2015 16:55
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MalcolmSheppard posted:So you're just going to ignore the fact that the thing Beast is being accused of subtextual homophobia for is a thing employed by prominent queer genre writers for a specific reason because TOO MANY WERDS. Got it. I mean my actual problem with your critique was your refusal to engage with the full text of Beast except to brush off Heroes and how they subvert the reading you wish that the authors hadn't undermined through their own overzealousness, but hey man type in caps and misspell poo poo, it's your post, do what you feel
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Jun 4, 2015 16:56
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moths posted:The Cabal/Nightbreed comparison doesn't really work because all the Midians wanted was to live peacefully. Sure, some were over-zealous in their defense of that community, but they didn't go out into the world and deliberately gently caress with regular people. Maybe. In Cabal/Nightbreed the monsters want to eat people too, and at the end of Cabal the Breed go out into the world. Midian was never the true solution for them. My point is that analysis isn't just a game of "What if you were transported somewhere where this guy was totally being awful and he could be mapped to something different," because the *act* is also mapped to something different as well. White Wolf style games have never been built wholly on world simulation as the approach, though it can get confusing because you can do it that way due to the naturalistic presentation.
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