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Rereading the last few statements, did this derail actually come up because someone thought I was attacking an entire family tree of belief and ethical systems rather than the character that was actually being discussed and his specific methodology? Because I don't know how I feel about that.
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Jun 4, 2015 08:44
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I don't know, I just saw a lot of posting of poo poo in the world, thread's doing its job.
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Jun 4, 2015 08:50
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Twiddy posted:It is about being correct though, in a sense. I'll go back to the original statement. I sure was hell wasn't talking about giving up finding solutions. The point is that claiming that your solution is better means you'll more than likely only follow that train of ideas, meaning it is all to easy to accept other losses or consequences in the name of one's value or just outright ignoring anything that goes against it. The point is because the methods are created within the limitations of the human mind and nature it would always be full of flaws and creates unexpected problems. My implications was you shouldn't accept that any methods was 'better' because you should always keep in mind that you still have not found any true solution. You still have to look at other methods for options and never be content with what you have practiced so far. Except in reality people are already content with the methods they chose and would rather only see the flaws of other and the benefits of their own. It is that mindset that is one of the major reasons disputes happen. Because it is all too easy to just accept what you have if you think your method is better. But by knowing there is no true better methods is what would encourage people to constantly rework what they have or create new systems. Therefore, it is why Kiritsugu stayed with his methods for as long as he had because he doesn't want to risk the worst case because of what he ran away from as a kid.
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Jun 4, 2015 08:53
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Twiddy posted:No, it's what's wrong with his beliefs. Which again, aren't quite utilitarian. I am personally convinced a true utilitarian could come up with most solutions much, much better than Kiritsugu could. For a start he'd probably actually have a functioning relationship with Saber even if their core belief systems were at odds. Ulitarianism word was sure thrown around the thread alot whenever Kiritsugu was ever mentioned, long before I posted in this thread. Besides Kiritsugu was more following the assassin's version. And Kiritsugu did try to somewhat deal with the Saber relationship by having Irivisiel be the practical master for Saber since she was more compatible with her. He basically let them approach the fight their way most of the time while he plans around that factor.
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Jun 4, 2015 09:08
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me, after reading this thread:
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Jun 4, 2015 09:09
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Randomzx posted:I sure was hell wasn't talking about giving up finding solutions. The point is that claiming that your solution is better means you'll more than likely only follow that train of ideas, meaning it is all to easy to accept other losses or consequences in the name of one's value or just outright ignoring anything that goes against it. That said, that doesn't mean that you should in general accept that any solution is possibly correct. This is true in literature, math, engineering, economics, etc. The existence of many potential correct solutions does not mean that there are not any incorrect ones. Now let's get to the story itself. For one, the story itself rejects Kiritsugu's methodology, and I say it does it for a reason and that says something about the real world. Well, here it is. Kiritsugu's method is ultimately destructive, he doesn't particularly seek compromise, reform, or any constructive method of handling the sources of problems or of possibly fixing them at their cause. He instead repeatedly fixes surface problems as they come up, which is hardly gonna solve problems at their source and worse might bring collateral damage with it. That said, a lot of real life organizations have this as their role. One of which can be argued to be the military, a very important resource. The thing is, you don't rely on this one resource entirely because it doesn't fix all problems (example being all the problems in the Middle East, there's a lot that could be said about that). quote:Therefore, it is why Kiritsugu stayed with his methods for as long as he had because he doesn't want to risk the worst case because of what he ran away from as a kid. Hell, that's something that's just been gone over in UBW as well. Shirou really isn't benefited by having his entire philosophy dictated by that massive fire from his childhood. He had to come up with more solid, real reasons for his beliefs.
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Jun 4, 2015 09:11
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Jun 4, 2015 09:41
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Jun 4, 2015 09:52
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same
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Jun 4, 2015 10:12
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Compendium posted:same
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Jun 4, 2015 10:15
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Paracelsus posted:That review illustrates that Shirou and Archer aren't the only ones talented at projection.  Twiddy posted:Honestly "a whole bunch of clueless nerds larping" does sound an awful lot like what a fight between a bunch of heroes would be like. Reminds me of that one Dexter episode where he and Mandark bring to life the heads of Presidents Washington and Lincoln and turn them into massive stone humans and have them fight to the death... to which they both just gently caress off and have a beer together or something. This was a very, very confusing post until I realized you were talking about Dexter's Laboratory. Twiddy posted:
This gonna be on the test Teach?
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Jun 4, 2015 10:26
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Twiddy posted:Carnival Phantasm mandatory viewing for everyone post UBW. I am okay with this. Zogundar posted:This gonna be on the test Teach? I'm gonna write my dissertation about why Kiritsugu sucks and how he ruined my life, it'll be my masterpiece (in all seriousness though, I do appreciate Twiddy's approach on how to look at characterization and narrative in general)
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Jun 4, 2015 10:30
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Compendium posted:I'm gonna write my dissertation about why Kiritsugu sucks and how he ruined my life, it'll be my masterpiece (in all seriousness though, I do appreciate Twiddy's approach on how to look at characterization and narrative in general) So yeah that is the exact kind of person I can be.
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Jun 4, 2015 10:36
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I guess one thing I want to talk about, though, is the nature of the Holy Grail and why it was presented as it was in Fate/Zero. Randomzx dug up that comment from the Commentary in Fate/Zero's episode 24 about the true nature of the Holy Grail, and that is entirely accurate. The Holy Grail is an actively malicious rear end in a top hat in this universe, surely everybody felt that. That said, the end of Fate/Zero instead focused on a different reason that Kiritsugu's wish could not be granted, and that's because it's essentially unlimited energy that needs form. The reason it focused on this instead of the Grail's maliciousness is that it highlights the primary flaws in Kiritsugu's reasoning and methodology. In the real world, one of the biggest obstacles to getting productive things done is what is called scarcity in Economics. That is, there are only so many resources in the world (of any type) and so you have to carefully allocate them in order to get the results you desire. A lot of people have really great ideas that should work that can fix problems in the world, but they don't have enough resources in order to accomplish them. The Holy Grail essentially acts as this. Any one of those people I've met in real life could have used the Holy Grail to create change that produced great benefit to the world. Kiritsugu, however, had no idea how to use it. This shows that fundamentally, Kiritsugu doesn't have an actual real plan that could bring about a better world, but just needs more funding or more... well, anything. In terms of having a methodology that solves more than a handful of problems, he is quite bankrupt. Essentially, the core idea that was pushed was that even if the Holy Grail was pure, he didn't have the remotest idea of how to actually benefit the world. The idea that the Grail is actively malicious is also there (and obviously the reason he has to destroy it), but it ends up being more important in Fate/Stay Night (where by contrast, the idea that the Grail is just a mass of energy is downplayed compared to its malicious nature).
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Jun 4, 2015 11:44
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I think it is important to note that the name of entity possessing the grail is name dropped in F/Z, but it isn't actually attributed to the entity, itself. (In fact, the way it is dropped is rather ironic.)
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Jun 4, 2015 12:58
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AlternateNu posted:I think it is important to note I mean, not really? Its name literally doesn't matter either way except for being a neat nod to Zoroastrianism and being a clue that "oh hey this giant rear end in a top hat might be a giant rear end in a top hat." The "spoiler," if there is one, would be the Grail being a jackass, not the thing that makes it a jackass being named after the Zoroastrian god of jackassery. WeedlordGoku69 fucked around with this message at 13:08 on Jun 4, 2015 |
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Jun 4, 2015 13:05
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avenger's a pretty nice guy actually i don't think he would appreciate you guys calling him a jackass
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Jun 4, 2015 13:12
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Avenger is great but he's totally a jackass.
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Jun 4, 2015 14:31
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AlternateNu posted:I think it is important to note that the name of entity possessing the grail is name dropped in F/Z, but it isn't actually attributed to the entity, itself. (In fact, the way it is dropped is rather ironic.) I don't fully catch the irony, can you explain in the TM thread or pm me?
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Jun 4, 2015 15:21
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Twiddy posted:.... That's not really the point, even somebody like him know what people benefits from. But he was actually searching for a miracle that would grant a permanent solution to to everybody, which is way beyond human capabilities as Kotomine said. He was going for the grail to deny human nature. The actual issue is that the grail is actually limited, because it is literally expecting you to write a detailed program code to get what you want. Which means nobody in the real world would actually have any plan that could actually save EVERYBODY any with practical methods. What Kiritsugu was expecting is having the ability to completely to completely change human nature and how the universe works as the straightforward answer, basically a system so powerful that the most simple of fairy tale answers would be easy to achieve, since it was actually said by many people that it was supposed to omnipotent (which is actually part of scam the three families had for outsiders) and even should the grail been more complicated than Kiritsugu expected, he was also relying on the Einzbern's sorcery trait ,wish-granting (the ability to cast magic without the knowledge) to help shape his would be wish during the process. After all the Einzbern wanted the grail to have the power to recover the Third Magic, which definitely something the mages couldn't achieve within their capabilities, since they need a miracle to recover a miracle. Basically Kiritsugu wanted something that could actually create a permenant solution for the humans, which was beyond human capabilities. But was basically asked by a limited system by himself alone to solve an impossible equation using mundane methods. Randomzx fucked around with this message at 16:18 on Jun 4, 2015 |
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Jun 4, 2015 16:12
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I think if Kerry had actually had some sort of plan to mind control everyone into being peaceful, he would have mentioned it (and the grail may or may not have been able to do so). That's not what he wished for though. He wished for "world peace", full stop. It was a totally naive wish with no method at all. Kerry never considered mass mind control, and I don't think he would've wanted that anyway. He just wanted a "miracle" to happen, something beyond human understand, possibly divine.
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Jun 4, 2015 18:15
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Clarste posted:I think if Kerry had actually had some sort of plan to mind control everyone into being peaceful, he would have mentioned it (and the grail may or may not have been able to do so). That's not what he wished for though. He wished for "world peace", full stop. It was a totally naive wish with no method at all. Kerry never considered mass mind control, and I don't think he would've wanted that anyway. He just wanted a "miracle" to happen, something beyond human understand, possibly divine. If you want an actual answer as to why I don't think that Kiritsugu's method actually solves real world problems, I guess that's the closest thing to it. Give Kiritsugu unlimited resources and his methodology really doesn't get any closer to his goal. Give someone who has a plan to solve world hunger, plans for hospitals, etc unlimited resources, and they can actually get a lot done. EDIT: Not to say that it should be a requirement for a good method to want unlimited resources, that would be absurd. It's merely a thought experiment that gets across another, very important factor. One way of going about things produces very tangible results with room for growth, while the other is very stagnant. Twiddy fucked around with this message at 18:54 on Jun 4, 2015 |
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Jun 4, 2015 18:45
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The question then is, to bring the conversation back around to its topic somewhat, if we were to hand Shirou the uncorrupted Grail, would he have a plan for it? Because, while I agree with most of what Twiddy is saying, I'm not sure he would.
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Jun 4, 2015 18:49
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He wouldn't, but Shirou never wanted the Grail to begin with. He is in the war to protect bystanders and keep the grail away from lunatics.
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Jun 4, 2015 18:54
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JimmyT64 posted:The question then is, to bring the conversation back around to its topic somewhat, if we were to hand Shirou the uncorrupted Grail, would he have a plan for it? It's worth noting that unlike Kiritsugu, the real world military (at least in the US) also puts its vast resources to use by preventing problems before they happen, bringing about scientific advancement, as well as being used as labor to aid various beneficial causes such as construction. Constructive things, in other words. EDIT: But yeah also what Rodyle said, there's a reason that F/SN doesn't deal with that mechanical aspect of the grail that much and instead focuses on it being malicious, because Plan A was never to use the Grail in either of the protagonist's minds. Twiddy fucked around with this message at 19:02 on Jun 4, 2015 |
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Jun 4, 2015 18:56
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Clarste posted:I think if Kerry had actually had some sort of plan to mind control everyone into being peaceful, he would have mentioned it (and the grail may or may not have been able to do so). That's not what he wished for though. He wished for "world peace", full stop. It was a totally naive wish with no method at all. Kerry never considered mass mind control, and I don't think he would've wanted that anyway. He just wanted a "miracle" to happen, something beyond human understand, possibly divine. What he wanted was not something he could actually conceive of beyond an abstract fantasy. That goes for any form of utopia, really, since there's no real definition of what properties would define a utopia. In my mind, I think of a utopia as the social-dynamics equivalent of the heat-death of the universe. Social interactions, like thermodynamic interactions, are driven by entropy in some form. I think of entropy in social dynamics as the wants of an individual; so long as someone wants something, there will be some measure of disorder in the system of society. To me, a utopia would be a societal state in which no one wants for anything, since only in such a society could everyone be content. I specifically mean content, because happiness is something else entirely. Happiness require some form of stimuli, which inherently implies non-zero entropy since it would induce others to want that stimulus to affect them, except in the case where no person can affect another in any way (that sounds kind of hellish). Therefore, no one can be happy in a true utopia. But that's a heavily philosophical notion of a utopia. The typical notion is more like a sort of paradise, which is what Kiritsugu is looking for. The thing with paradise is that it is a selfish, contradictory dream. A paradise cannot exist without someone working to allow its existence, which inherently suggests a disparity between the lives of those living in paradise and those managing the paradise, which inherently contradicts the fantasy people dream of. I say it's a selfish dream because, unless you are willing to be the one managing the paradise, you are condemning someone (or something?) else to live a sub-standard life so that you can feel good about yourself. The only way to escape the zero-sum game of social dynamics is if something broke the rules of the world. Something like the true Holy Grail. But as Kiritsugu discovers, his grail is bound by the rules of the world. For all its potential and power, it could never create Kiritsugu's paradise.
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Jun 4, 2015 19:05
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I wish for robots. Slave robots who can't feel emotions. Also, I think mass mind control could make everyone happy. Clarste fucked around with this message at 19:17 on Jun 4, 2015 |
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Jun 4, 2015 19:08
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Clarste posted:I wish for robots. Slave robots who can't feel emotions. When you come across a problem, even if it seems unbeatable, you try to work around it however you can.
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Jun 4, 2015 19:21
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Coming up with stupid counterexamples to purely theoretical models is a proud tradition of philosophical discourse.
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Jun 4, 2015 19:25
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Clarste posted:I wish for robots. Slave robots who can't feel emotions. Source your D&D quotes.
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Jun 4, 2015 19:25
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Clarste posted:Coming up with stupid counterexamples to purely theoretical models is a proud tradition of philosophical discourse.
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Jun 4, 2015 19:29
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Twiddy posted:TBF, a slave robot that can't feel emotions is literally what your microwave is, so you're a bit more on track than you might realize. To be honest, it wasn't really a joke. I think slave robots punch a big hole through his theory.
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Jun 4, 2015 19:30
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Unlimited Blade Works S2: Hey, that's hell you're walking into. Change the thread name to this please, tia Beef.
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Jun 4, 2015 22:37
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Compendium posted:Unlimited Blade Works S2: Hey, that's hell you're walking into. Seconding.
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Jun 4, 2015 22:58
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ViggyNash posted:Seconding. Third. Seriously how do we have such apropos quotes for the discussion?
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Jun 4, 2015 23:04
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Actually, this conversation is shaped by the counter force in order to fit the quotes.
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Jun 5, 2015 00:01
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ADTRW: Hey, that's Hell you're walking into
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Jun 5, 2015 11:53
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It is done.
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Jun 5, 2015 18:12
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Awesome. The thread can only escalate from here. 
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Jun 5, 2015 18:25
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Anime News Network
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Jun 5, 2015 19:10
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