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Pauline Kael posted:It'd have to be real stiff with all that Saudi oil money in which he's awash after selling his lovely TV network to them. I'm proposing that the people who are shrieking the loudest that this is a crisis, start acting like it is. I'm sure once celebrities and luminaries like Al Gore move into sub 1500 sq ft homes and take public transportation (and stop eating meat!) perhaps the culture will stop completely ignoring Climate Change This is a thread about Climate Change, not Al Gore you incredible retard.
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Jun 3, 2015 19:42
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CommieGIR posted:Here's the thing: Nobody trying to push for solutions about Climate Change gives a poo poo about Al Gore. He's just a vocal supporter. That's it. Is he a hypocrite? Like many politicians, yes. So Al Gore and Mark Ruffalo shouldn't modify their behavior to reflect what they're preaching to the great unwashed masses? Very good comrade, some animals are more equal than others
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Jun 3, 2015 19:43
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Pauline Kael posted:So Al Gore and Mark Ruffalo shouldn't modify their behavior to reflect what they're preaching to the great unwashed masses? Very good comrade, some animals are more equal than others Only you seem to care about Al Gore, everyone else (including the post you quote) already said he's a hypocritical wealthy dude and moved on. If you're going to try and troll, do a better job. At least come up with a new strawman as we've all heard the Al Gore one before. I'd suggest lurking more and reading what Arkane posts, he's a far better troll than you. edit: I'm realizing you probably just don't understand the meaning of the word hypocritical. Here's some info: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hypocritical
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Jun 3, 2015 19:46
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Pauline Kael posted:So Al Gore and Mark Ruffalo shouldn't modify their behavior to reflect what they're preaching to the great unwashed masses? Very good comrade, some animals are more equal than others Swing and a miss.
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Jun 3, 2015 19:47
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Pauline Kael posted:So Al Gore and Mark Ruffalo shouldn't modify their behavior to reflect what they're preaching to the great unwashed masses? Very good comrade, some animals are more equal than others Because climate change isn't about these two individuals (and lets be honest, the climate change opponents are FAR FAR more overzealous). Pauline Kael posted:Very good comrade, some animals are more equal than others gently caress you, idiot.
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Jun 3, 2015 19:58
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Pauline Kael posted:Define have to? Nope, I doubt you see much change in first-world behavior. The more hysterical predictions fall by the wayside, the more people tune it out. It's hard to imagine that in a democracy that anybody is going to get elected on a platform of lets get poor and suffer lol if you actually think that's what the platform would have to be, jesus christ
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Jun 3, 2015 20:00
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TheQat posted:lol if you actually think that's what the platform would have to be, jesus christ The best part, he keeps bringing up Animal Farm and has demonstrated he doesn't even understand the point of the book 
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Jun 3, 2015 20:06
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Happy_Misanthrope posted:I just fail to see how demonstrating ecological mindfulness actually moves the needle to any meaningful degree, especially when we're talking about the opposition that actually takes pleasure in consuming as much as possible in order to mock Earth Day participants. You lead by example, you're just a pathetic liberal tree-hugging vegan hippy, if not you get the "Lol AlGore took a plane to that CC conference!" argument. 7 pages later in this very thread...
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Jun 3, 2015 20:13
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Pauline Kael posted:It's hard to imagine that in a democracy that anybody is going to get elected on a platform of lets get poor and suffer If I buy solar panels and have them installed on my house, am I poorer? What about the installer? The panel manufacturer? (hint: substitute any other capital improvement for 'solar panels' e.g. a new furnace)
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Jun 3, 2015 22:16
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Wow, I didn't realize all that stuff about Al Gore...I guess...climate change is fake after all. Arkane; I'm sorry.
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Jun 3, 2015 23:10
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This is insanity. I spent a ton of time last night and today reading this thread and a lot of the articles posted, and it's just disgusting how nobody in a position to do so has ever truly brought the hammer down on anything the fossil fuel industry is doing, and how absurdly little the media is covering climate change or ignoring urgency at all levels. poo poo, the news is already scaremongering, why not make it about something that actually matters? Is there an activism organization thread on the forums? Would it be possible to start a massive lawsuit involving multiple parties, not so much to win as to start drawing attention to the urgency and the people responsible for this horseshit? Just a nonstop hammering of lawsuits, or one massive one, on the oil companies, executives, the koch industry, coal orgs, with the full force of scientific testimony, all the environmental organizations working together, citizens, OWS, what the gently caress ever, just anything to dig in to these issues. It's beyond crimes against humanity. We don't even have to wait for these issue to appear 100 years from now, they're already here, and already costing everybody and everything. gently caress, just pay a poo poo-ton of hackers for constant denial of service attacks, stealing information, constant problems for Exxon, Koch etc. (disclaimer: I am an idiot and have not so big of an idea what l33t haXX0rs are capable of). I feel one of the big issues is the complete lack of leadership and honesty/urgency of the issue. If the president, any president, just bit the bullet and had a national address telling the country that things are going to be hard, but we'll literally save the world, I think at this point a majority of people, at least people my age, will listen and get on board with some sort of new new deal scenario, as long as the government makes it easier for them and creates a ton of jobs in the process (maybe I'm too optimistic on that). As noted in this thread before, transition doesn't even have to be that bad with smart planning. The people advising the president should be screaming into his eardrums right now. It's so infuriating to me to see these people with the keys to the kingdom and more money than they could possibly know what to do with from their positions alone, just take a big poo poo on all of humanity and nature because they can't see past 3 months or some more money. It's past the point of civility. They should be torn apart, but instead we watch them do it. It is absolute insanity. My mind is thoroughly boggled, truly.
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Jun 4, 2015 05:26
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Okay everyone, shut down all science, total waste of money. We just need to watch Al Gore's every move to find out how much the earth is warming and whether vaccines cause autism.
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Jun 4, 2015 08:51
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Attack! posted:This is insanity. I spent a ton of time last night and today reading this thread and a lot of the articles posted, and it's just disgusting how nobody in a position to do so has ever truly brought the hammer down on anything the fossil fuel industry is doing, and how absurdly little the media is covering climate change or ignoring urgency at all levels. poo poo, the news is already scaremongering, why not make it about something that actually matters? Is there an activism organization thread on the forums? The last time a president tried to do this he was mocked for literally decades and set us up for one of the worst presidents ever. You vastly overestimate the American voter. Americans *will not* be told they have to buckle down and be responsible, or believe in anything more than Jaysus and cash. It's why I'm an accelerationist - Americans simply will not get off their stupid fat asses unless they're scared enough.
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Jun 4, 2015 13:40
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Attack! posted:This is insanity. I spent a ton of time last night and today reading this thread and a lot of the articles posted, and it's just disgusting how nobody in a position to do so has ever truly brought the hammer down on anything the fossil fuel industry is doing, and how absurdly little the media is covering climate change or ignoring urgency at all levels. poo poo, the news is already scaremongering, why not make it about something that actually matters? Is there an activism organization thread on the forums? Are you fifteen? Radbot posted:The last time a president tried to do this he was mocked for literally decades and set us up for one of the worst presidents ever. Agreed, the assumption that the average voter is a self absorbed apathetic moron is usually accurate.
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Jun 4, 2015 13:53
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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Family Values posted:If I buy solar panels and have them installed on my house, am I poorer? What about the installer? The panel manufacturer? If you buy solar panels (and I've done the calculation any number of times for my home in upstate NY) you are definitely doing something good for your consciousness, but probably not for your wallet, assuming of course you don't count the environmental cost of the production of the panels. It would cost me ~$30k (panels + battery pack as I had my house built 'stubbed in' for solar so wont need extensive wiring, which wasnt a big lift in cost when building and is probably a good idea for anyone building a new home) to go full solar. Of course, most people don't do full solar, they use it to augment the grid, and sell back power. That's going away, and the utilities won't be required to pay market rate for the electricity you produce. The deal being pushed on the public now is these companies that will put the cells on your roof for 'free' and they'll guarantee you a 30% reduction in your electric bill. They're the ones that make out in this, at least until the legislation changes and the utility only pays them a fraction of what they're paying today for the electricity produced on YOUR roof. The other option I've studied is wind. I live in a windy area, with very few days having no wind. I'm not sure we've had one yet this year. The advantage here is that even though the up front cost of wind is about the same as solar (here, for me, not sure elsewhere) but capable of producing a lot more electricity (again, for me, here) and on a more consistent basis since upstate NY has more wind that sun 10 months of the year. The problem with wind is that local/county/state government are pretty fundamentally against it, and the paperwork and permitting hurdles are considerable. I had a couple candidates for town council knock on my door a couple nights ago looking for signatures to get them on the ballet, and when discussing this very topic with them, their answer is, we don't want residential windmills. Now this is a town where the minimum lot size is 5 acres. The next closest house to mine is almost 1000'. There is NO reason I shouldnt be able to have a windmill, but as it stands, I cant even get officials to return my calls to ask about permitting or anything else. There's a bit of good news in the wind front though, i havent seen it here, maybe in the alt energy thread, but I do think this has the potential, if the political will exists (it doesnt) to get a lot more homes using wind and away from fossil fuel based electrical, its http://www.treehugger.com/wind-technology/vortex-vertical-bladeless-wind-turbine.html pretty interesting stuff. My only real alternative at this point is to do geothermal with enough solar to make up the difference, but the issue there is that the ROI is measured in decades. I have 2 kids to put through college and can't really justify the $50k+ it would cost to do that, even though it would save me an easy 3-4k a year in propane costs.
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Jun 4, 2015 15:20
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Radbot posted:The last time a president tried to do this he was mocked for literally decades and set us up for one of the worst presidents ever. Yeah you're a great human being, you think Jimmy Carter *wasn't* one of the worst presidents ever AND you're an accelerationist. I guess perhaps the two notions are related!
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Jun 4, 2015 15:21
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Salt Fish posted:Wow, I didn't realize all that stuff about Al Gore...I guess...climate change is fake after all. Arkane; I'm sorry. Right, that's exactly what I said. Climate change is real. The issue I have (and most normals, to say not the D&D in crowd) is that the prescription for curing the ills of climate change basically read like a laundry list of everything the left hates about America, while at the same time, the cultural leaders of the AGW movement are the biggest goddamned hypocrites on earth. Sorry if that's too difficult for you to grasp, most people really don't like someone telling them to live more simply while they go about living more lavishly. Not sure I can dumb that down any more for you, but there you have it.
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Jun 4, 2015 15:25
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Pauline Kael posted:So Al Gore and Mark Ruffalo shouldn't modify their behavior to reflect what they're preaching to the great unwashed masses? Very good comrade, some animals are more equal than others Ugh why do your posts read like a senile old man ranting on facebook until the nurses drag him away to get his meds? Is this some kind of Grandpa Simpson performance art you're doing?
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Jun 4, 2015 15:27
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What point are you even making? Climate change is real, and man-made, but we shouldn't do anything about because it's better to really stick it to some failed presidential candidate from over a decade ago? What? What else you got? Let's teach creationism, not because it's true, but because it'll really stick in that slimy big-nosed Tip O'Neill's craw! 
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Jun 4, 2015 15:33
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Pauline Kael posted:Right, that's exactly what I said. Climate change is real. The issue I have (and most normals, to say not the D&D in crowd) is that the prescription for curing the ills of climate change basically read like a laundry list of everything the left hates about America, while at the same time, the cultural leaders of the AGW movement are the biggest goddamned hypocrites on earth. Sorry if that's too difficult for you to grasp, most people really don't like someone telling them to live more simply while they go about living more lavishly. Not sure I can dumb that down any more for you, but there you have it. "Climate change is real but the left sucks so I'd rather just bitch about a political party than the real implications of AGW." Glad you've shown us the error of our ways.
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Jun 4, 2015 15:45
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VitalSigns posted:What point are you even making? Climate change is real, and man-made, but we shouldn't do anything about because it's better to really stick it to some failed presidential candidate from over a decade ago? What? Sorry you're bad at reading (of course you are) but it's pretty simple. AGW caused climate change is a crisis. Why aren't we acting like it's a crisis by allowing people to do things like build windmills without years and years of paperwork and palm greasing nonsense? Just answer that and I'll leave you alone to your furious circle jerk
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Jun 4, 2015 15:45
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Attack! posted:This is insanity. I spent a ton of time last night and today reading this thread and a lot of the articles posted, and it's just disgusting how nobody in a position to do so has ever truly brought the hammer down on anything the fossil fuel industry is doing, and how absurdly little the media is covering climate change or ignoring urgency at all levels. poo poo, the news is already scaremongering, why not make it about something that actually matters? Is there an activism organization thread on the forums? I get what you're saying but as an IRL lawyer, the answer is no. I'm not going to bother with the long version. The court system is not the place for politics or political activism. Societal change has to come from the people, by the people and the most civilized way of doing so is through a legislative body like a parliament. Otherwise you're simply enabling a tyranny of the courts. Therein lies the problem and the reason I'm saying that only a paradigm shift politically, culturally, economically, industrially and environmentally can make the necessary changes to stop the worst to come. But you are right, a new deal where society finds a new way of distributing resources and stops the oligarchical and nobility-esque hoarding of wealth by the top 1% of the world's wealthy, and we use every resource to create a truly sustainable society, infrastructire and industry, would create a massive amount of work for everyone. At least short term. But you should probably ask yourself why everyone needs to have a job in the first place, because that's capitalism talking. Pauline Kael posted:If you buy solar panels (and I've done the calculation any number of times for my home in upstate NY) you are definitely doing something good for your consciousness, but probably not for your wallet, assuming of course you don't count the environmental cost of the production of the panels. It would cost me ~$30k (panels + battery pack as I had my house built 'stubbed in' for solar so wont need extensive wiring, which wasnt a big lift in cost when building and is probably a good idea for anyone building a new home) to go full solar. Of course, most people don't do full solar, they use it to augment the grid, and sell back power. That's going away, and the utilities won't be required to pay market rate for the electricity you produce. The deal being pushed on the public now is these companies that will put the cells on your roof for 'free' and they'll guarantee you a 30% reduction in your electric bill. They're the ones that make out in this, at least until the legislation changes and the utility only pays them a fraction of what they're paying today for the electricity produced on YOUR roof. Yeah. One major problem is small scale versus huge scale. The economy (and physics) of electricity gives significant efficiency gains over small scale energy production and takes a lot less resources and manpower to do the same job. It's pretty logical; one powerplant for ten thousand homes or ten thousand windmills/solar panels etc. with ten thousand windmills worth of maintenance, materials, wiring, power managment... And the gains from each individual house are likely to be wildly different based on their local and regional geography. I believe the energy generation megathread goes into this at length. Energy generation is absolutely the biggest most significant topic of the whole global warming debate: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3505076 My take on is that extremely energy-efficient houses combined with non-CO2 generating power plants will have the most significant impact on global warming. This means solar power plants, massive high-efficiency windmill parks AND modern nuclear breeder reactors as a baseline. Pauline Kael posted:Right, that's exactly what I said. Climate change is real. The issue I have (and most normals, to say not the D&D in crowd) is that the prescription for curing the ills of climate change basically read like a laundry list of everything the left hates about America, while at the same time, the cultural leaders of the AGW movement are the biggest goddamned hypocrites on earth. Sorry if that's too difficult for you to grasp, most people really don't like someone telling them to live more simply while they go about living more lavishly. Not sure I can dumb that down any more for you, but there you have it. It's not wrong to point out the basic hypocrisy of global warming figureheads living the lavish lifestyles that ultimately is a threat to civilization. Absolutely agree. It sends a very bad message to everyone else. Personally, I will most definitely spend a great deal of personal resources on living sustainably; I've always done well with very little in terms of personal possessions, and my ideal lifestyle would be an earthship-like house that's semi-built by myself (up to code, obviously) with a big permaculture yard and some a carbon neutral vehicle. Sounds like paradise to me, at least. No telling if I'll ever be able to do it, though.
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Jun 4, 2015 15:58
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Okay so complaining about Al Gore was irrelevant fluff or a nervous tic or something, and I should improve my reading skills and learn to ignore that...your actual point all along was that we should invest more aggressively in wind energy, is that right?
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Jun 4, 2015 16:00
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Pauline Kael posted:LOTS OF WORDS There is an energy generation thread for this topic [ed: or it might even be better in DIY & Hobbies]; It has little to do with climate change, and would still have little to do with climate change, even if regulations for solar or wind installations were relaxed, since domestic PV and wind will never make more than the tiniest of dents in our CO2e production. Rather than fuss with PV and wind, cut your energy wastage instead, and get a solar thermal installation.
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Jun 4, 2015 16:57
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Well if you have some kind of legal standing then sue away. You are not likely to get very far tough going up against a giant industry like that. Legal activism does sometimes work. That`s how America got free abortion. It can on rare occasions also be instrumental in changing people`s opinions because it creates a media circus. You can`t just go to trial and accuse a company of being evil and greedy however. What law`s or property rigths have been broken exactly?
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Jun 4, 2015 17:19
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"Over a year ago I changed my diet to a vegan diet, really just to experiment to see what it was like," he says. "And I felt better, so I continued with it. Now, for many people, that choice is connected to environmental ethics and health issues and all that stuff, but I just wanted to try it to see what it was like. In a visceral way, I felt better, so I've continued with it and I'm likely to continue it for the rest of my life." http://www.mnn.com/health/fitness-well-being/blogs/al-gore-says-hell-likely-stay-vegan-for-life Face it, Al gore is better than you.
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Jun 4, 2015 18:01
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Pauline Kael posted:Yeah you're a great human being, you think Jimmy Carter *wasn't* one of the worst presidents ever AND you're an accelerationist. I guess perhaps the two notions are related! I legitimately wear your disapproval as a badge of pride, thank you. Kurt_Cobain posted:Face it, Al gore is better than you. "Nobody that has ever been on a plane can ever have an opinion about anything, ever." - Pauline Kael Radbot fucked around with this message at 18:14 on Jun 4, 2015 |
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Jun 4, 2015 18:12
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Radbot posted:I legitimately wear your disapproval as a badge of pride, thank you. The best part being: Carter was followed by Reagan
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Jun 4, 2015 18:14
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CommieGIR posted:The best part being: Carter was followed by Reagan Yeah, which was exactly my point. Americans will not be told to be grownups about things, they will elect a Reagan figure to tell them it's morning in America repeatedly before they will make any significant changes.
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Jun 4, 2015 18:15
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CommieGIR posted:The best part being: Carter was followed by Reagan Yup, Carter made liberal a dirty word for 2 generations
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Jun 4, 2015 18:16
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Wait how the gently caress can anyone who has read a book say Jimmy Carter is one of the worst Presidents ever? America has had some lovely, lovely-rear end presidents, Jimmy doesn't even come close. Let's just start with Andrew Johnson and go from there.
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Jun 4, 2015 18:16
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Radbot posted:Yeah, which was exactly my point. Americans will not be told to be grownups about things, they will elect a Reagan figure to tell them it's morning in America repeatedly before they will make any significant changes. Says forums accelerationist. Now are you telling us grownup things about things as someone who cares, or someone who wants to see the world burn?
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Jun 4, 2015 18:16
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VitalSigns posted:Wait how the gently caress can anyone who has read a book say Jimmy Carter is one of the worst Presidents ever? answered your own question there
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Jun 4, 2015 18:27
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VitalSigns posted:Wait how the gently caress can anyone who has read a book say Jimmy Carter is one of the worst Presidents ever? Carter didn't have sufficient disdain for the average American, and gave you Reagan 
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Jun 4, 2015 18:31
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Pauline Kael posted:Yup, Carter made liberal a dirty word for 2 generations No, actually, that was mostly the GOP propaganda machine and poor party cohesion among the Liberal Democrats that did that. Reagan did FAR FAR worse than Carter, but is seen as a national hero by the GOP despite being a literal war criminal.
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Jun 4, 2015 18:34
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Carter got bitten by a rabbit. What a pussy. The measure of a
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Jun 4, 2015 18:39
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http://www.theguardian.com/environment/climate-consensus-97-per-cent/2015/jun/03/research-downplaying-impending-global-warming-is-overturnedquote:In fact, ignoring a vast body of important relevant research was a recurring theme throughout the Monckton paper. After they manufactured a problem by exaggerating the discrepancy between mainstream climate model simulations and temperature observations, and ignored the relevant scientific research on that issue, Monckton and colleagues created their own “irreducibly simple climate model” with built-in assumptions based on circuit design rather than the physics of the Earth’s climate system.
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Jun 4, 2015 18:46
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Pauline Kael posted:Says forums accelerationist. Now are you telling us grownup things about things as someone who cares, or someone who wants to see the world burn? I am functionally a leftist (meaning I vote for leftists candidates and/or Democrats if it's a very tight race) and philosophically an accelerationist. I don't want to see the world burn, but it likely will.
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Jun 4, 2015 19:11
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Pauline Kael posted:Says forums accelerationist. Now are you telling us grownup things about things as someone who cares, or someone who wants to see the world burn?  people don't think the future is going to be sunshine and butterflies
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Jun 4, 2015 19:13
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Pauline Kael posted:My only real alternative at this point is to do geothermal with enough solar to make up the difference, but the issue there is that the ROI is measured in decades. I have 2 kids to put through college and can't really justify the $50k+ it would cost to do that, even though it would save me an easy 3-4k a year in propane costs. You entirely missed my point. 'Doing something about climate change will make us poor' is wrong. Economic activity makes us richer, not poorer.
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Jun 4, 2015 19:30
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