|
The Atlantic Carrying a photo-essay on the Battle of Midway today, with some great photos
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2015 14:25
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 27, 2024 22:00 |
|
|
FAUXTON posted:Well, the end of WWII ushered in the jet era, the MBT, assault rifles being the primary infantry weapon, nuclear propulsion, strategic missiles, etc all within like a decade. I mean maybe some stuff was retrofitted but poo poo that won the war went into the dustbin before people were even really demobilized. A LOT of that equipment wasn't destroyed or sold off. The huge waves of actual scrapping and sales didn't happen until the late 50s-60s for a few reasons. Even then a lot of that stuff wasn't just destroyed but sold off or given away as military aid in the Cold War. 1) The cold war. Even in 1946 there was a fair amount of tension building over Russia and everyone knew they couldn't just light all their military stocks on fire. 2) Most of the world was flat loving broke as far as military spending went. Populations that spend six years under all kinds of rationing and not having new consumer goods made aren't going to tolerate another couple just because the Army wants a new rifle. Doubly so for democracies where people get a say in who leads them. 3) the international arms market was loving FLOODED with surplus from the guys who lost. If you weren't on the US or Russia's military teat in the 40s-50s chances are you were buying up a goddamned shitload of German equipment, or happened to have a bunch lying around in your country because of how the war ended. Czechoslovakia and Norway in particular ended the war with giant formations of Germans still in the field, and those guys just stacked up their poo poo and went home after. The Czechs in particular were notorious for selling off Nazi military equipment to whoever could afford it. One of their most notable customers were the Israelis back when Britain and the US were pissed at them over the war of independence. Google around and there are some pretty funny pictures of early IDF BF-109s (technically A-109s after the Czech factory that just kept cranking them out after the war ended to pay the bills, using mostly spare parts left behind by the Germans). Heck, for that matter the Syrians were using Panzer IVs during the Six Days War, and a couple of them were captured by the IDF. I forget now whether those saw service or were just kept as trophies, but it should be pointed out that the IDFs own tank units had a lot of (heavily upgraded) WW2 era US and British tanks in them at that point. The Belgians later got into that big as well. FN Herstal had been cranking out huge numbers of rifles for the Germans under the occupation and they just kept on trucking, flooding the market with even more cheap K98ks - some of them built up off of salvaged rifles that were broken down for parts. To really see this delay in getting rid of surplus WW2 stuff in action, look at Korea. Basically every country involved in it was fighting with 10 year old stuff left over from WW2 in the early stages. Most of the "new" vehicles were things that were actually in development or early production in WW2, like the Pershing and the P-80. The Patton and the F-86 were both fairly exceptional as actual new-generation equipment. The other big reason that the large nations didn't just scrap that poo poo is that they were paranoid about what was going to happen next. Take the Soviets. They didn't just carefully store all their old tanks and rifles in case of a renewed invasion from the west under NATO auspices, they mothballed all the old German equipment they captured as well. The general plan was that if they found themselves in another winter-of-41 scenario they'd crack the crates full of old Nazi poo poo and use them to field third line reserve formations. Hell, even in the US the National Guard was using M1 Garands well into Vietnam. THEN you have all of the crazy international politics of the emerging cold war. It's a lot easier to give some small client state all your old crap from the previous conflict to go make trouble with on your behalf than it is to hand over the nice, new, expensive stuff the taxpayers are currently buying. A goddamned ton of European countries where we were worried about propping up the government got WW2 era military aid, and it worked the same way for the Russians . There was a good chunk of time where the emerging E. German army was armed with a mix of old Nazi stuff - re-imported from Russian storage depots - and Russian WW2 era weapons. Look at very early photos of the Berlin wall going up and most of the E. German soldiers are armed with PPSh-41 and PPS-43 SMGs, and that was in the 60s. Other examples abound. Vietnam is absolutely lousy with WW2 surplus if you look at ARVN and VC. Most of the really huge bouts of equipment destroying were done by the western allies either immediately after the war or during it out of fears that it could be used against them by the people who made them. Lots of German equipment was dumped in the English Channel and a whole shitload of Japanese stuff is at the bottom of Tokyo Bay. Not all of it was saved, but the stuff that was thrown out was generally pretty damaged or worn out from being used in WW2.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2015 14:27
|
|
|
Cyrano4747 posted:Hell, even in the US the National Guard was using M1 Garands well into Vietnam. They also were still using the Thompson, M3 Grease Gun, M1919, and M1903 sniper rifles at least in the early parts of the Vietnam War. The M3 actually didn't leave American service until after the first Gulf War when there weren't enough AR-15 carbines for armor crews.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2015 14:44
|
|
|
Weren't STG44s and MG42s being used by the Iraqis during Desert Storm 2.0? Edit: Also this - http://defensetech.org/2015/06/03/us-air-force-targets-and-destroys-isis-hq-building-using-social-media/ ISIS member posts a selfie from his HQ, which promptly gets JDAM'd a few hours later. Saint Celestine fucked around with this message at 16:19 on Jun 4, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2015 15:44
|
|
|
Saint Celestine posted:Weren't STG44s and MG42s being used by the Iraqis during Desert Storm 2.0? DnD superstar Brown Moses actually uncovered a scheme by which Saudi Arabia supplied Croatian StG 44s to Syrian rebels.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2015 16:35
|
|
|
Cyrano4747 posted:The Czechs in particular were notorious for selling off Nazi military equipment to whoever could afford it. One of their most notable customers were the Israelis back when Britain and the US were pissed at them over the war of independence. Google around and there are some pretty funny pictures of early IDF BF-109s (technically A-109s after the Czech factory that just kept cranking them out after the war ended to pay the bills, using mostly spare parts left behind by the Germans). I just want to pull this out of the middle of that wall-o-text to confirm I'm reading it right. What you're saying here is that the Israeli military was literally fighting battles with Nazi German weapons? I have that all the correct way round???
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2015 16:35
|
|
|
Trin Tragula posted:I just want to pull this out of the middle of that wall-o-text to confirm I'm reading it right. What you're saying here is that the Israeli military was literally fighting battles with Nazi German weapons? I have that all the correct way round??? If there is a Hell, a poster of a squadron of BF-109s with Stars of David painted on is probably plastered to the ceiling of Hitler's cell. Edit: Or a Panzer IV, to be even more iconic.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2015 16:39
|
|
|
Trin Tragula posted:I just want to pull this out of the middle of that wall-o-text to confirm I'm reading it right. What you're saying here is that the Israeli military was literally fighting battles with Nazi German weapons? I have that all the correct way round??? http://www.google.se/search?q=avia+199&prmd=ivns&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=dHFwVeSHBILaU7HZgpgH&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2015 16:41
|
|
Trin Tragula posted:I just want to pull this out of the middle of that wall-o-text to confirm I'm reading it right. What you're saying here is that the Israeli military was literally fighting battles with Nazi German weapons? I have that all the correct way round??? Both sides had Axis and Allied gear.   Shermans  Egyptian one:  Egyptian T-34:  Israeli Bf109 variant bought from the Czechs:  Syrian Stug:  Jadgp: 
Disinterested fucked around with this message at 16:47 on Jun 4, 2015 |
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2015 16:44
|
|
|
Disinterested posted:Both sides had Axis and Allied gear. That's great. Built by Natzi Germany. Captured by the IDF from the Syrians.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2015 16:55
|
|
|
Were It not for the efforts of McNamara the army would've used M1 Garands in Vietnam.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2015 16:58
|
|
|
I'm also amused by how the stat listing is entirely pictographic. I think I've worked out most of it, but what's the one on the bottom-left mean? And am I right in guessing that the bottom-right denotes main gun caliber?
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2015 16:58
|
|
|
Trin Tragula posted:I just want to pull this out of the middle of that wall-o-text to confirm I'm reading it right. What you're saying here is that the Israeli military was literally fighting battles with Nazi German weapons? I have that all the correct way round??? poo poo I own a K98k that was made by the Germans in 1940 and repurposed by the IDF after the war. It had both swastika and Star of David acceptance stamps. I'll throw up a picture tonight if I remember.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2015 17:00
|
|
|
Whoa is that an Egyptian Sherman with an AMX-13 turret?
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2015 17:01
|
|
Koesj posted:Whoa is that an Egyptian Sherman with an AMX-13 turret? FL-10 Turret apparently so yeah: quote:Egyptian variants Israelis had some weird poo poo also: quote:Sherman M-50 - Upgraded Sherman with the French CN 75-50 75 mm gun, as used in the French AMX 13 light tank, in the "old" turret fitted with a counterweight. Entered service in 1956. Was used in the Suez Crisis (1956), the Six Days War (1967) and the Yom Kippur War (1973). Sometimes colloquially misnamed as Super Sherman. 
|
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2015 17:05
|
|
|
Archangel posted:DnD superstar Brown Moses actually uncovered a scheme by which Saudi Arabia supplied Croatian StG 44s to Syrian rebels. The StG 44 is still in use with the Lebanese Forces militia on top of occasional use by various other militias, guerrilla forces, and criminals. Though guerrillas and other irregular forces aren't the best example of the slow pace of military change, as they tend to use whatever they can get their hands on. A better example would be how the US was still bringing out World War II firearms up through Vietnam and even the Gulf War and just about everyone was using World War II tech to a major extent during the Korean War. Ships also have a very long shelf life; the USS Intrepid aircraft carrier was built in 1941 and not decommissioned until 1974 and turned into a museum in NYC. quote:I'm also amused by how the stat listing is entirely pictographic. I think I've worked out most of it, but what's the one on the bottom-left mean? And am I right in guessing that the bottom-right denotes main gun caliber? I think the bottom left is the number of main gun shells carried.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2015 17:05
|
|
|
Tomn posted:I'm also amused by how the stat listing is entirely pictographic. I think I've worked out most of it, but what's the one on the bottom-left mean? And am I right in guessing that the bottom-right denotes main gun caliber? Yep! 87 rounds of main armament. 75 mm caliber cannon. I'm curious about the tonnage though. A Panzer IV G is only 23.6 short tons, and it's hard to imagine that they doubled that through upgrades. So what unit of measure are they using to come up with the number 43 under the scales? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzer_IV Kaal fucked around with this message at 17:16 on Jun 4, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2015 17:08
|
|
|
Saint Celestine posted:Weren't STG44s and MG42s being used by the Iraqis during Desert Storm 2.0? Hell there are probably modern armies using MG 3s, which are basically MG 42s in 7.62x51mm NATO, in Afghanistan right now. Some currently used arms really are basically the same as they were in WW2. 
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2015 17:29
|
|
|
Of course everybody is still using the Human version 1.0 Is there a reason there were so many Sherman variants? Was it just because there were a ton of them, or was there something mechanical that made them easy to modify?
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2015 17:44
|
|
|
Some changes were external (VVSS vs HVSS suspension), some were to get around construction bottlenecks at various factories (welded vs cast hull, some powerplants), and it had a rather large turret ring which allowed for upgrades.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2015 17:52
|
|
|
BurningStone posted:Of course everybody is still using the Human version 1.0 Each upgrade got its own designation, plus there were specialized variants like the Jumbo. The PzIV had quite a large number of variants as well. The T-34 also underwent a ton of minor modifications, they just weren't documented as well with a model number.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2015 17:53
|
|
|
BurningStone posted:Of course everybody is still using the Human version 1.0 Designing an entirely new tank is hard, resource intensive and time consuming. Modifying an existing design to fit a particular need is a faster, cheaper way. Kaal posted:Yep! 87 rounds of main armament. 75 mm caliber cannon. I'm curious about the tonnage though. A Panzer IV G is only 23.6 short tons, and it's hard to imagine that they doubled that through upgrades. So what unit of measure are they using to come up with the number 43 under the scales? They use the metric system, but none of that checks out when comparing the weight written on that information tablet and documented sources. Other examples in their collection also seem to have the wrong weight according to Metric, so maybe they are using something else?
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2015 17:54
|
|
|
BurningStone posted:Of course everybody is still using the Human version 1.0 There are a shitload of variants for any vehicle which is produced in large numbers over a significant span of time. A lot of the time it's easier to improve an existing design to try and keep up with the pace of progress than completely retool your production lines for a new product, especially during a war. Just about any major vehicle that served in large numbers in WW2 has a crazy number of iterations. Off the top of my head: Sherman, T-34, PzIII, PzIV, BF-109, Spitfire, P51, Zero, B17, Ju87, Ju88 . . . You can see this with more modern systems as well. For what it's worth it's the same way with small arms as well, although they frequently don't get an entire new model designated unless the changes are so profound it makes parts non-interchangeable. The earliest Garands had a completely different gas system setup than the ones we all think about and changes in production techniques (mostly manufacturing as many parts as possible out of stamped rather than milled steel) make a late war K98k look very different than an early war rifle. The same thing happens with bigger, more expensive things as well although those involve retrofits and upgrades rather than just making a different type of thing. Ships are a great example of this. The USS Missouri in WW2 and the USS Missouri in the first Gulf War are two very, very different beasts. Modern CVNs usually undergo a major overhaul and refitting in the middle of their life span (I could be wrong, but I think it's when they refuel the reactor) and get some pretty crazy changes in their capabilities. Probably the best example of this is the evolution that an AWACs undergoes in its operational life. An airframe from the 70s or 80s might still be flying today, but the actual functional bits have had a lot of replacing and modification.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2015 17:56
|
|
|
Jobbo_Fett posted:They use the metric system, but none of that checks out when comparing the weight written on that information tablet and documented sources. Other examples in their collection also seem to have the wrong weight according to Metric, so maybe they are using something else? Some variant of talents maybe?
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2015 18:17
|
|
|
They could also just be plain wrong. You wouldn't believe how many mislabled things I see in museums. When you get into spergy poo poo like vehicle weights and gun calibers it gets even worse. It's not like experts in German armor sat around and carefully crafted that stat sheet. Chances are a curator specializing in display design made the general template to make it intelligible to people who don't read Hebrew or English and then a bunch of interns, grad students, etc. filled in the numbers.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2015 18:32
|
|
|
Cyrano4747 posted:They could also just be plain wrong. You wouldn't believe how many mislabled things I see in museums. When you get into spergy poo poo like vehicle weights and gun calibers it gets even worse. It's not like experts in German armor sat around and carefully crafted that stat sheet. Chances are a curator specializing in display design made the general template to make it intelligible to people who don't read Hebrew or English and then a bunch of interns, grad students, etc. filled in the numbers. No joke, this is the main reason for me to want to volunteer at my nearest War Museum. That and promote a better understanding of past/current struggles.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2015 18:37
|
|
|
Trin Tragula posted:I just want to pull this out of the middle of that wall-o-text to confirm I'm reading it right. What you're saying here is that the Israeli military was literally fighting battles with Nazi German weapons? I have that all the correct way round??? He forgot the Stugs.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2015 18:47
|
|
|
Murgos posted:I doubt it happened or if it did it was for Lend-Lease. Sounds apocryphal and it has a lot of issues. Fraud by a grateful ally not least among them but also that the terms would be operational losses are written off. I've heard another probably apocryphal story about the Soviets deciding to report some Sherman tanks as destroyed rather than return them to the Americans. The story goes that one tank that had been mired in a bog. A team of engineers recovered the tank by draining the bog, towing it out, cleaning the tank, and transporting it to Odessa, where it was crushed into a cube and dropped in the ocean.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2015 18:53
|
|
|
Chamale posted:I've heard another probably apocryphal story about the Soviets deciding to report some Sherman tanks as destroyed rather than return them to the Americans. The story goes that one tank that had been mired in a bog. A team of engineers recovered the tank by draining the bog, towing it out, cleaning the tank, and transporting it to Odessa, where it was crushed into a cube and dropped in the ocean. That's patently bullshit if only for two reasons: 1) the soviets loving never threw out anything that could conceivably be used to kill someone. If the story ended with them driving it into a warehouse and telling the US it was a burning hulk outside Kiev I'd be half tempted to give it a little credence. 2) Based on what I've seen pulled out of bogs in eastern europe on Youtube, I'm pretty sure the Soviets didn't give two solid fucks about abandoning a vehicle that was stuck. edit: I would also like to see the compactor capable of cubing a Sherman. Cyrano4747 fucked around with this message at 19:12 on Jun 4, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2015 19:04
|
|
|
Chamale posted:I've heard another probably apocryphal story about the Soviets deciding to report some Sherman tanks as destroyed rather than return them to the Americans. The story goes that one tank that had been mired in a bog. A team of engineers recovered the tank by draining the bog, towing it out, cleaning the tank, and transporting it to Odessa, where it was crushed into a cube and dropped in the ocean. I heard it as someone on these forums retelling an anecdote from their ...grandfather? Of some Red Army soldiers painting up and cleaning their Lend lease studebaker truck 'till it shone, driving up to some exchange poing I guess and being mortified when the Americans had it crushed/chopped.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2015 19:11
|
|
|
Yeah, it would have to be a pretty loving special tank to go through all that trouble. Standard procedure was to write "oops we dropped it in a river" or whatever in your journal and then just wait until you got another one.Nuclear War posted:I heard it as someone on these forums retelling an anecdote from their ...grandfather? Of some Red Army soldiers painting up and cleaning their Lend lease studebaker truck 'till it shone, driving up to some exchange poing I guess and being mortified when the Americans had it crushed/chopped. A common anecdote, likely untrue. Studebakers went into storage just like everything else. Hell, they kept assembling them from the parts that already arrived way after the war was over
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2015 19:11
|
|
|
Plus the soviets were hardcore into recycling after the war. Their economy was a mess, the western half of their country was a loving wreck, and they needed almost as many raw materials for the rebuilding as they did in the war. I'd believe them cutting it up for scrap way before I'd believe them dumping it in the ocean. As an example, behold a fence made out of scrapped Mosin barrels and receivers. These are the guns that were determined too shot out and otherwise wrecked to bother coating in grease and storing or giving away to some satellite state. 
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2015 19:12
|
|
|
That fence loving owns, I want one.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2015 19:14
|
|
|
Cyrano4747 posted:That's patently bullshit if only for two reasons: 1) the soviets loving never threw out anything that could conceivably be used to kill someone. If the story ended with them driving it into a warehouse and telling the US it was a burning hulk outside Kiev I'd be half tempted to give it a little credence. Speaking of which, there's a story on iRemember, where the guy tells how they prepared shiploads of jeeps and trucks to give back to the US, freshly painted and repaired and the US dude taking over the load tells them that they'll just scrap them.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2015 19:17
|
|
|
Cyrano4747 posted:Plus the soviets were hardcore into recycling after the war. Their economy was a mess, the western half of their country was a loving wreck, and they needed almost as many raw materials for the rebuilding as they did in the war. I'd believe them cutting it up for scrap way before I'd believe them dumping it in the ocean. Now I want a fence made out of reclaimed weapons and it's all your fault. I live in an apartment. I don't even have anything to put a fence on.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2015 19:44
|
|
|
Cyrano4747 posted:As an example, behold a fence made out of scrapped Mosin barrels and receivers. These are the guns that were determined too shot out and otherwise wrecked to bother coating in grease and storing or giving away to some satellite state. You know, you might be able to make a decent buck these days producing specialty furniture made out of reclaimed military surplus.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2015 19:48
|
|
|
Tomn posted:You know, you might be able to make a decent buck these days producing specialty furniture made out of reclaimed military surplus. Real life Iron Throne? Yeah I'd buy that (and then die by stabbing myself on all the bayonets)
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2015 19:58
|
|
|
Nenonen posted:Real life Iron Throne? Yeah I'd buy that (and then die by stabbing myself on all the bayonets)
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2015 20:14
|
|
|
Ensign Expendable posted:Each upgrade got its own designation, plus there were specialized variants like the Jumbo. The PzIV had quite a large number of variants as well. The T-34 also underwent a ton of minor modifications, they just weren't documented as well with a model number. This is also the case with a lot of more modern military equipment too - the Abrams is at least a few revisions deep, the M16 and M4 are as well, it's probably a mixture of attempts at futureproofing by allowing for upgrades to a chassis/frame design and prevailing project management doctrine among the people doing the design. E: milsurp furniture: 
FAUXTON fucked around with this message at 20:39 on Jun 4, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2015 20:36
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 27, 2024 22:00 |
|
|
Found something: https://astroeternity10.wordpress.com/articles/ancient-astrology-looks-at-the-life-and-death-of-general-albreht-von-wallenstein/ (This is actually the second modern occultist I've seen throw a horoscope for Wallenstein. I bet he's well known in those circles, but I've never asked.)
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2015 20:42
|
|
