|
Is it me or is there like three places the text notes she's making the other players uncomfortable, and this is just used as further evidence we've got some excellent idea jams going here.
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2015 01:58
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 8, 2024 06:06 |
|
|
This makes me embarrassed as gently caress. I can't even imagine what a normal person would feel reading through this dreck.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2015 02:03
|
|
|
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DV1fUwKMdAI quote:From the Beasts’ perspective, changelings are snatches of the oldest stories, sometimes rearranged or in a different key, but essentially unchanging. In every Ogre is the theme of the Anakim, in every Darkling a refrain of the Eshmaki. Many Beasts feel a closer Kinship with the Gentry than their partially-human servants: vast beings of infinite potential hemmed in by the roles they are forced to play, limited in their expression within the bounds of the world and only free to express their full nature within their own realm. nuke this splat from orbit
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2015 02:04
|
|
|
tatankatonk posted:
How the gently caress do you write 'These guys like to join the walking abuse metaphor on its fun sunday excursions to ruin souls and defile lives' and still think you're writing the good guys!?
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2015 02:06
|
|
|
loving called it. I want now a Dark Superfriends game where the Beasts are slain.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2015 02:07
|
|
|
The more I read about Beast, the more I feel like the handful of good ideas that did make it into it feel like they are Changeling's rightfully stolen crown. People keep mentioning that Beasts are the True Fae as a joke, but there's so much here that could've worked as tweaks for Changeling: The Lost 2e. Focus on narrative cycles, the emphasis on archetypes, the idea of becoming more the thing you are by living your own legend, etc. It doesn't hurt that Beasts so often mess about in the Astral and feed on emotions and/or odd obsessions. Can we melt Beast down and steal the few diamonds from the slag and allow a Changeling Draconic to actually breathe fire? Pretty please?
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2015 02:07
|
|
|
Night10194 posted:How the gently caress do you write 'These guys like to join the walking abuse metaphor on its fun sunday excursions to ruin souls and defile lives' and still think you're writing the good guys!? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lD1hncFgg8w
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2015 02:09
|
|
|
MonsieurChoc posted:Let's not says things we're going to regret, here. Gypsy was a giant ball of racism that still sort of fit the tone of white wolf at the time. Changing Breeds was a bizarre game of playing super sexy animal people who had lots of sex whenever they weren't being compelled to poo poo on people's lawns while maintaining eye contact because someone smoked a cigarette in front of you. Beast is a game with decent mechanics that's currently being brought down by it's fiction. They're all terrible, but for different reasons, arguing about which is "Worse" is missing the point (and it's also sort of an opinion) I think the reason why beast "feels' like it's worse is that it's not out yet, people have been telling BHM about these problems for 3 months now, and his constant response has been "Nope you're wrong."
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2015 02:10
|
|
|
tatankatonk posted:
Hey, OP writers: you cannot pal around with the loving True Fae and be a defensible thing. If you wrote this, you hosed up bad.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2015 02:13
|
|
|
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2015 02:13
|
|
|
My father is a doctor. He does medical witnessing for child abuse trials as one of his specialties. So all my life, I have heard about the absolutely awful things some broken and damaged people do to helpless children. A game about glorifying it, or 'Hey, now we can twist the kid she poisoned and possibly killed into something she'll feel downright great about murdering after she tortures him more by making his house unsafe and horrible for him' makes me so angry. So goddamn angry.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2015 02:15
|
|
|
Guys, you're too focused on the beast. Look at the kid - the kid NPC doomed to become an obsessed serial killer child because he stole some Halloween candy, got poisoned and was choked half to death.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2015 02:16
|
|
|
That character creation example makes me so upset. There are people I know in real life who I would not be able to show that to for fear of their emotional wellbeing, but more to the point: who could I show it to? What normal person would read the kind of poo poo that Beasts get up to and not quietly ask the police to put me on some kind of list? This isn't drinking the blood of the living or hunting down mutant spiders or even tv versions of slashers! Abusive school officials, parents, monstrous prosecutors, all these things exist in real life! They're not for sitting around chortling about how loving transgressive you are. It's not a joke, it's not funny.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2015 02:21
|
|
|
tatankatonk posted:
Oh look something happened while I was trying to properly word that last post. loving hell Matt. Night10194 posted:My father is a doctor. He does medical witnessing for child abuse trials as one of his specialties. So all my life, I have heard about the absolutely awful things some broken and damaged people do to helpless children. A game about glorifying it, or 'Hey, now we can twist the kid she poisoned and possibly killed into something she'll feel downright great about murdering after she tortures him more by making his house unsafe and horrible for him' makes me so angry. So goddamn angry. If he doesn't post an article tomorrow about how they're going to rework most of the book then someone at OPP needs to take him to task about this crap. It glorifies abusers and most of their interactions with other splats is "Hey you guys should be more like me because I'm loving awesome." I mean poo poo, that line from earlier about telling promethians they should murder more people goes against most of the entire point of Promethian. But he's a Beast, so he's right. See? the book says right here.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2015 02:21
|
|
|
Kurieg posted:Let's not go saying things we'll regret. I dunno, I'd agree it is worse than Changing Breeds by a considerable portion. It ties with Gypsy though.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2015 02:27
|
|
|
"Alright Orson, I need to feed. It's Halloween, so I look outside to see if anyone's messing with the kids and their candy." "Yeah, you see a kid snatching some candy of out of a younger kid's bag. You recognize him, his name's Brent." "Do I know where he lives?" "I mean, yeah, but you can just scare him and you'll be fine." "Okay. I break into his house. Is there any candy around?" "Hey, Orson, can we get to my character now?" "No! Orson, is there any candy around?" "...Sure." "Alright, so I want to poison that candy, just enough to make him throw up, okay? Do I need to roll anything?" "Brent's like twelve." "So?" "...Fine, you poison the candy." "I'll hide in the attic until Brent comes back. NOW we can get to you, Alice." LATER "Alright, is Brent home?" "Yes, he gets home, and you hear him throwing up." "Great. I sneak up behind him and choke him with a bag." "You're going strangle a child to death." "I just want to scare him!" "Can we not?" "Look, I hold it until his face goes blue. Does he kick me?" "Jesus, Magda." "This is the game!" "Just wrap it up." "Fine. I use You Deserve This on Brent. That lets me turn the house into one of my Chambers, so I can keep torturing Brent, right? And he'll get a ton of nightmares too, forever?" "We're not playing this game anymore."
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2015 02:32
|
|
|
For real. I don't usually like to presume based on the fact that we have OPP authors that read this, but, guys, you're clearly reading, you've been posting. I realize that some of you wrote on Beast and that there's probably a lot of poo poo we don't know about and will likely never know about. I don't want to pillory people who didn't have a direct hand in perpetuating the worst of this poo poo, or who realized what was going on. Please, for the love of God, ask Matt to at least say something about the abuse. I don't even care at this point if it's just "this game's dark and edgy, if you can't handle it, cya shitlords" because that's at least a response rather than silence, or casual dismissal like through all of development. If this is really the hosed up catastrophic Biblical proportions accident that his statements/history indicate, it's the least he can do to own up to it to the people he's made angry and disgusted for extremely good reasons. Christ. I haven't gotten actually, for-real angry at something in nerd games for a very long time, and I've tried as I get older and more aware of the hobby to be less ad hominem about poo poo like this, but the longer I think about this the more my blood boils. This isn't something you just miss in an editing pass.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2015 02:33
|
|
|
To clarify, in case people from other places who haven't followed the whole conversation (who could blame them) are reading: I'm not saying you can't include abusive relationships in tabletop roleplaying games. It's not always (or often) appropriate, but done thoughtfully it can even be helpful. The attitude where "Magda" turns to the camera and snickers AIN'T I A STINKER is not a thoughtful treatment of child abuse.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2015 02:37
|
|
|
tatankatonk posted:Beast doesn't make me want to stop playing nWoD/OPP games. It really, really makes me wish that a bunch of other people would stop playing them, forever. Actually it kind of does make me want to stop playing nwod game for a while. It just gets worse the more you think about it
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2015 02:37
|
|
|
pospysyl posted:"Alright Orson, I need to feed. It's Halloween, so I look outside to see if anyone's messing with the kids and their candy." It says "Young man" in the book, so I assume he's like 16-18, but largely because that's at the level of where it could still be picking on kids (as is her niche) and that you might plausibly steal candy if you're an rear end, but not so old that you just seem like a depressing loser.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2015 02:40
|
|
|
It's amazing how Beast just keeps getting shittier and shittier, but with a clearly visible trend throughout. I mean Jesus.
|
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2015 02:40
|
|
|
I spend money on Onyx Path products and nWoD is the game i'd recommend if someone new to the hobby asked me what I thought they would have the most fun playing. This is probably the first time I've felt this way, but I really would like a statement from someone from the company saying this offensive material is a mistake, or a one-off that won't get any further support, or something. I just don't think we'll get it, or at least we won't get it from McFarland, who is the public face of this project.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2015 02:41
|
|
|
tatankatonk posted:I spend money on Onyx Path products and nWoD is the game i'd recommend if someone new to the hobby asked me what I thought they would have the most fun playing. This is probably the first time I've felt this way, but I really would like a statement from someone from the company saying this offensive material is a mistake, or a one-off that won't get any further support, or something. I just don't think we'll get it, or at least we won't get it from McFarland, who is the public face of this project. Yeah. Yeah, this is exactly where I'm at.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2015 02:44
|
|
|
What the gently caress? What the gently caress How How does anyone defend this? WHY would anyone defend or write this poo poo? I sincerely regret buying Demon now, instead of pirating a pdf. I don't care how ineffective it it, I'm spreading the damned word everywhere I can. OPP doesn't deserve money for this, McFarland needs to be thrown out on an asphalt road.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2015 02:45
|
|
|
Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater. ..said nobody playing a game of Beast.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2015 02:48
|
|
|
Effectronica posted:It's amazing how Beast just keeps getting shittier and shittier, but with a clearly visible trend throughout. I mean Jesus. It's like, Demon was written by a fully-functioning adult with the tastes therof, while Beast was written by a manchild who still hasn't gotten over the jerk jocks (seriously, were those ever a thing outside 80s movies?) in high/secondary school. It's like reading Dominic Deegan all over again.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2015 02:50
|
|
|
It finally happened. I'm mad at tradgames.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2015 02:51
|
|
|
I have to say, quotes like this:Beast posted:Separated by the Gauntlet, Beasts and spirits have little direct interaction, but no discussion of a Werewolf crossover would be complete without addressing the denizens of the Shadow. Much as with other kinds of supernatural beings, Beasts see spirits — even the mighty Firstborn — as little siblings and cousins. Their true peers are the mighty and possibly long-vanished gods of the Shadow: Father Wolf, the Plague King and Spinner-Hag, and Luna herself. ...are really funny given the mindset Dave Brookshaw says he was taking when he wrote 'em. You know what, they would think that.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2015 02:55
|
|
|
Beast sucks but all of the rage of "I wish I never bought a single nwod book and will never buy one again" is really hyperbolic.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2015 02:56
|
|
|
jim truds posted:Beast sucks but all of the rage of "I wish I never bought a single nwod book and will never buy one again" is really hyperbolic. I agree, this doesn't retroactively make the other lines garbage or anything. However, what I AM worried about is being associated with it in any form. I wanted to actually try and introduce some coworkers to nWoD since they played other P&P games, but now it has to remain a dark and terrible secret. Forever.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2015 02:59
|
|
|
jim truds posted:Beast sucks but all of the rage of "I wish I never bought a single nwod book and will never buy one again" is really hyperbolic. What's really hyperbolic is this dumbass statement you've put in the mouths of people in this thread. "I'm re-evaluating the financial support I give this company, and also the time I spend using its products" is a perfectly legitimate stance to take when they put out a product like this.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2015 03:00
|
|
|
Obligatum VII posted:I agree, this doesn't retroactively make the other lines garbage or anything. Or you could just say "I know beast is terrible but let's play Demon instead. You are both Neo and James Bond. It is fun and had nothing to do with abusing kids."
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2015 03:01
|
|
|
jim truds posted:Or you could just say "I know beast is terrible but let's play Demon instead. You are both Neo and James Bond. It is fun and had nothing to do with abusing kids." Also your characters hate beasts. I mean, that would happen anyway, but still.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2015 03:03
|
|
|
jim truds posted:Or you could just say "I know beast is terrible but let's play Demon instead. You are both Neo and James Bond. It is fun and had nothing to do with abusing kids." Wanting a very small amount of accountability or concern from the company I support with my money and words is not a bad thing. I would like to see my concerns addressed, because this game makes me feel gross and also makes me want to do other things with my free time. It's pretty reasonable for an adult to want that.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2015 03:05
|
|
|
jim truds posted:Or you could just say "I know beast is terrible but let's play Demon instead. You are both Neo and James Bond. It is fun and had nothing to do with abusing kids." Things have already gone terrible wrong if you have to preface potential conversations with the context of "I know X is horrible, but..."
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2015 03:08
|
|
|
In general, I feel like this is a manifestation of a lack of top-level editorial oversight in WoD 2E as opposed to 1E. The specific problems it has aren't problems I expect to see repeated in Mage or Promethean or whatever, but the potential of something wildly out of kilter getting released later on certainly remains.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2015 03:13
|
|
|
It's kind of amazing how Beast so thoroughly co-opts the language of people who are concerned with preventing and dealing with abuse to instead glorify and justify that abuse.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2015 03:14
|
|
|
I don't think anyone who isn't already into TTRPGs will know what Beast is. It will also probably, hopefully, sink like a rock after the KS is done. But that's secondary. The issue is that they wrote a game where multiple example characters are child abusers, and they need to at least acknowledge this, and ideally apologize for it.
|
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2015 03:21
|
|
|
So what faction from each splat would join with Beasts to terrorize humanity and just generally make things worse for everyone?
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2015 03:22
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 8, 2024 06:06 |
|
|
Seers.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2015 03:24
|
|
