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Calde posted:Does a beast feeding take away a point of Integrity for sure? If there's a rule for that I'd like to see it, I thought it just provoked a roll on the Breaking Someone's Psyche table. I can't believe I had to type that but here we are. You're right, the game treats it as an almost certainty though. Probably because the person is going to be getting several rolls over the course of the night as the beast enacts their elaborate ritual.
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Jun 8, 2015 06:59
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Mormon Star Wars posted:Thinking about it, the other thing that separates Beasts from Vampires is that you can take blood from someone without killing them, but all of a Beast's methods for feeding seem like the kind of thing that could give you PTSD and gently caress you up for life. I don't think that the Vampires can feed gently or innocently particularly matters. In theory, a Beast can try and exercise their Hunger in a fashion that victimizes the "right" people; the Hunger for Revenge, for example, might lead them only to target drug kingpins, serial killers, and so forth. The distinction is in presentation. Vampiric feeding is never shown as altruistic; it is always a parasitic, victimizing act. All the attempts to make it noble are dancing around the fact that the vampire is looking for an excuse; a means to justify their parasitic nature by turning it to a noble cause. The act itself is always, at best, morally grey. If I had to make an analogy, it's like really niche fetish erotica; you can write all the lovely prose you want, but it's ultimately just an excuse to get your rocks off. Beasts don't really have that going for them. Their Hunger isn't really depicted as ignoble and their aims aren't suggested to be excuses or thin veneers. That crosses a worrying line, because it suggests, for example, that revenge or lust for power can be a noble pursuit. At the very best, those are questions whose answers should be left to players. At the very worst, it perpetuates the kind of creepy revenge fantasy that sits at the heart of so much of what people are upset about here; the thing that transforms the understandable (but morally grey) desire to get revenge on someone who killed your child into torture porn.
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Jun 8, 2015 07:00
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Yeah, I am pretty sure being fed from by a Vampire could completely be a Breaking Point (at least the first time it happened). Heck, it could qualify in two categories, "What have I forgotten?" or "What is the most traumatic thing that happened to me?" (Potentially even "What's the worst thing you can imagine" if you're really scared of vampires but that's a stretch.) Even a seductive feeding is still a confusing, what-just-happened-to-me sort of act. That actually raises a pretty significant issue with the Breaking Point system actually - how do you make interesting ones for NPCs? It's clearly a system meant to apply to everyone in the 2nWoD so my normal method of "oh just don't worry about it" doesn't apply. There's Vampire Disciplines that they resist, but it's kind of boring to always have regular people just being regular. Or maybe I should make "normal people" aggressively normal and write up a "standard Breaking Point list" and just point to it whenever anyone tries to Majesty someone.
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Jun 8, 2015 07:10
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Beast is giving me ideas at least. It's making me want to push the section of Slashers that talks about how VASCU agents are psychics, and could potentially learn psychic powers if you wanted them to, in a Storyteller I know's face. And then talk about how psychics can enter the Temenos. Because clearly the answer to all this bullshit is arresting the Dark Mother for child abuse.
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Jun 8, 2015 07:49
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Boogaleeboo posted:Beast is giving me ideas at least. It's making me want to push the section of Slashers that talks about how VASCU agents are psychics, and could potentially learn psychic powers if you wanted them to, in a Storyteller I know's face. And then talk about how psychics can enter the Temenos. I prefer riding on the "Humanity's Collective Consciousness" angle for Beasts and Heroes in that the Dark Mother is actually a gestalt of all of Humanity's fears. This fear is strong enough to manifest itself as an entity and spawn more of its own, Beasts, by adapting those manifestations of that fear. However, the entities its adapting from carry some of those creatures' baggage. Namely: Heroes.
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Jun 8, 2015 08:43
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I'm perfectly willing to arrest humanity's collective unconscious. Containment is going to be an issue, as is setting up a trial that doesn't break the laws of God and man, but I like to consider those all tomorrow's problems.
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Jun 8, 2015 08:59
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Boogaleeboo posted:I'm perfectly willing to arrest humanity's collective unconscious. Containment is going to be an issue, as is setting up a trial that doesn't break the laws of God and man, but I like to consider those all tomorrow's problems. Seer or Technocrat: YOU make the call!
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Jun 8, 2015 09:01
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Leviathan: the Tempest is a loving fan splat and it's still better than Beast.
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Jun 8, 2015 09:40
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Cabbit posted:Seer or Technocrat: YOU make the call! Well, what splat is Sam Vimes?
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Jun 8, 2015 09:54
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I was going to respond to the question about what factions would work with Beasts earlier but I realized the question I was actually trying to answer was "do you have any plans to do anything with Beast" and right now I have a note in a planned vampire game about a coterie running an alternate Eloise psychiatric hospital as a resort for powerful Kindred, and they have a partnership with a Beast that's the ace up their sleeve. That's right, I'm actually trying to use parts of Beast. I'm the problem. I haven't pledged yet, and I don't know if I'm eventually going in for the PDF - a lot of it is going to rely on what word comes from OPP's camp, if any. Right now I'd still consider myself willing to run or play a Beast, but character concepts, potential arcs, characterization, all that is going to be under heavy scrutiny and is going to need some serious vetting before it hits the table.
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Jun 8, 2015 10:07
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Watching Beast go from "oh I guess they're making a new WoD game after Demon, wonder what it's gonna be" to all of this has sure been a hell of a thing.KirbyJ posted:I haven't pledged yet, and I don't know if I'm eventually going in for the PDF - a lot of it is going to rely on what word comes from OPP's camp, if any. Right now I'd still consider myself willing to run or play a Beast, but character concepts, potential arcs, characterization, all that is going to be under heavy scrutiny and is going to need some serious vetting before it hits the table. Legit question, but why? Even if you strip out the hamfisted writing and incredibly uncomfortable stuff, which is a majority of the product by the look of it, what does Beast touch on or deliver that other WoD gamelines don't already have covered? Like, the point's been belabored but it's a fairly salient one that if you want to play a shitbag, self-serving monster that drapes their destructive and harmful actions in a veneer of rationalizations or smug arrogance that Vampire already exists and has existed for a while.
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Jun 8, 2015 10:37
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Beast's probably going to be the single worst book ever written for the nWoD. I can't think of like a single other nWoD book that has just failed on every level like this.
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Jun 8, 2015 10:58
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Night10194 posted:I would play this character in a heartbeat. What the hell is wrong with someone who fought back against her attacker, won, and now quests to return to her family by fighting the horrors that put her in hell? The part you could use as "defence" is that she's A: fighting Beasts who have nothing to do with her and B: the text says she "pursued it back to it's lair". However, we really don't know how much active planning was part of B, and it seems unlikely a child would be a sociopathic serial killer from the get go, and as for A even if we didn't know a majority of Beasts really are that bad (because the book keeps telling us) then we'd just have the victim of a random happenstance victimising other people's dreams in order to live, which makes her exactly like the supposed protagonist splat. CommissarMega posted:'Young man' might not necessarily mean a 20 year-old dude, it might as well refer to a 16-18 year-old. But hell, a middle-aged man stealing candy from kids deserves a stern-talking to and maybe some shaming on social media at most, not being suffocated and then mind-raped into being a sociopath that you kill for bonus XP. A middle aged man stealing candy from kids would just be weird, anyway. I inferred it was an older child, at the 16-18 level. And certainly an appropriate reaction, regardless of age, is not to choke the poo poo out of them. Mormon Star Wars posted:Thinking about it, the other thing that separates Beasts from Vampires is that you can take blood from someone without killing them, but all of a Beast's methods for feeding seem like the kind of thing that could give you PTSD and gently caress you up for life. It's better than that: the issue with vampires, conviniently as a sometimes-sex-metaphor, is consent. It's possible, if vanishingly unlikely, to imagine a commune of humans and vampires where the vampires are completely open about what they are and humans volunteer blood. You can't be a consensually predatory beast; it's just flat out impossible, you're damaging their psyche like it or not. paradoxGentleman posted:Leviathan: the Tempest is a loving fan splat and it's still better than Beast. Good things Beast has done: Reminded me Leviathan exists.
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Jun 8, 2015 11:05
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Kai Tave posted:Legit question, but why? Even if you strip out the hamfisted writing and incredibly uncomfortable stuff, which is a majority of the product by the look of it, what does Beast touch on or deliver that other WoD gamelines don't already have covered? Like, the point's been belabored but it's a fairly salient one that if you want to play a shitbag, self-serving monster that drapes their destructive and harmful actions in a veneer of rationalizations or smug arrogance that Vampire already exists and has existed for a while. Speaking for myself, if I was to play it it would not be much different in theme from other nWoD games, maybe, but there is something to be said for playing as a mythological monster awakened from the mists of time. It's what got me interested in Beast in the first pace. paradoxGentleman fucked around with this message at 11:30 on Jun 8, 2015 |
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Jun 8, 2015 11:11
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paradoxGentleman posted:Speaking for myself, if I was to play it it would not be much different in theme from other nWoD games, maybe, but there is something to be said for playing as a mythological monster awakened from the mysts of time. There's a lot to be said for it, but A). it seems like a weird fit for the World of Darkness, not that I guess "rebellious cyber-angels of the unfathomable God-Machine" are necessarily any less weird, but "mythological monsters awakened from the mists of time" doesn't immediately leap out to me as an obvious inclusion in a game of modern-day mainly urban horror/fantasy, though mostly the real issue is B). Beast sounds like a loving terrible execution of that premise even if it's something you're interested in. Do you want to salvage the good parts of Beast? It doesn't sound like there are many unless you turn a lot of the concepts being presented on their head in which case why are you buying this game just to have to do a bunch of work to turn it into something it isn't, just play other, better nWoD games and make some poo poo up.
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Jun 8, 2015 11:22
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Beasts don't even have actual plot to them, they just do things. Their only antagonists are created by themselves and other Beasts, they have no interesting agendas or reasons to do anything other than self-gratification. There is no reason to play them beyond liking the idea of being a horrible avatar of abuse and misery.
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Jun 8, 2015 11:23
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I just realized something: if you alter Leviathan's premise so that it accounts for earthly and flying creatures (it al ready sort of does, but in a very limited manner) you can pretty much obtain the same result without even needing to touch BtP. You just nerd to rename some Vestiges so that they are not necessarily as focused on marine life, come up with a couple more to cover flying and other stuff and you're golden. Only problem is the emphasis on cults and divinity that that fan gameline has, but it cold be' done.
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Jun 8, 2015 11:41
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On the upside, Pugmire can probably serve admirably as Rango: the Tabletoping.
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Jun 8, 2015 11:44
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Kai Tave posted:Legit question, but why? That's a fair question, and the answer is that the broadest stroke ideas appeal to me and I like how the mechanics fit together, for the most part. I like the idea of a monster whose soul is an astral nightmare, I like that you get an inborn personal otherworld that connects all throughout the world and other realms, I have a big thing for fear magic, I like the idea of a game that is relatively simple and varied that can mesh with other lines thematically, I love it when they try to do something different with the Integrity meter, and aside from Atavisms being a little powerful for my tastes, stuff like them, the Nightmares, the Kinship mechanics and especially the Lair work for me, execution-wise. I still hate the way most of it is written, don't get me wrong, and I hate Heroes not only for their presentation but also because that's the one unique conflict Beast brings to the table. The other thing Beasts have is their Lair, which while awesome doesn't bring much besides kewl powers and crashspace. You'd expect much more from introducing the Primordial Dream, but it doesn't pan out.
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Jun 8, 2015 11:48
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Am I misremembering, or do most WoD books have a section about player boundaries? I feel like every game but Beast has explicitly said to reel it in when players are uncomfortable, but that example of Beast play affirms the real-world antisocial behavior of ignoring/relishing your real life friends' discomfort.
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Jun 8, 2015 13:22
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I didn't know SMG tradgamed.And Other Plays from RPGnet posted:I did not call you an unreasonable oppressor. moths posted:Am I misremembering, or do most WoD books have a section about player boundaries? I feel like every game but Beast has explicitly said to reel it in when players are uncomfortable, but that example of Beast play actually real-world antisocial behavior of ignoring your real life friends discomfort.
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Jun 8, 2015 13:27
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tatankatonk posted:Description: Thaddeus is a tall, skinny man in his mid-30s, clean-shaven with pale skin and neatly cut hair. During office hours, Thaddeus wears business casual polo shirts and slacks, and is completely unremarkable. While out hunting monsters, he wears a poorly fitted trenchcoat and a black trilby hat. Thaddeus considers himself a modern gentleman and speaks with an unnecessarily verbose vocabulary, dotted with “chivalric” language he’s mostly picked up from fantasy movies and novels. He sounds really cool.
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Jun 8, 2015 13:45
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Luminous Obscurity posted:I didn't know SMG tradgamed. For all the good points he has, I still don't think "well at least I don't kill people intentionally" is an excuse. (And entrenching your monsters within the mechanics and structures of society that allow the strong to oppress the weak is already a thing vampire does.) Beasts need a reason to exist given in the text, a justification for the crimes they commit. If all their murdering, torturing, and owning people on the basketball court with the power of existential dread is simply for their own self perpetuation then they don't have a leg to stand on in the "mean hero won't just lay there and take it" argument.
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Jun 8, 2015 14:12
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It's immensely tiring how everyone who likes Beast seems to go for "Beasts are like marginalised people, and Heroes are their bigots, so if you find Heroes sympathetic and think Beasts sound like assholes perhaps it is you who are the bigot, hmm?". I dislike the splat because there's like four sample characters who abuse children and they mock the concept of changeling trauma, not because I'm just itching to throw my skin off and reveal I've actually been the grand dragon of the KKK all this time.
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Jun 8, 2015 14:24
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Given the fact that beasts are abusers and persecutors who act from positions of power inside society, 'grand dragon' is a pretty solid beast pun.
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Jun 8, 2015 14:27
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Kurieg posted:Beasts need a reason to exist given in the text, a justification for the crimes they commit. If all their murdering, torturing, and owning people on the basketball court with the power of existential dread is simply for their own self perpetuation then they don't have a leg to stand on in the "mean hero won't just lay there and take it" argument. Honestly, I for one would like Beasts more if they were unrepentantly dickish. Maybe you want to be Snidely Whiplash, maybe you want to be O'Brien from 1984. Whatever, you're a bad guy, the worst of the worst, go forth and do your thing. Slashers are playable, after all.
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Jun 8, 2015 14:30
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After thinking about it while trying to sleep yesterday, I think I get what they were going for. Now, apparently Beasts are meant to be a stand-in for marginalized group, with Heroes being a stand-in for the bigots who hate them for no adequate reason. So why then have the Beasts do terrible acts, justifying the Heroes? Well, look at Republicans and Fox News. They loathe homosexuals and think that what they do is unnatural and horrifying. The terrible acts of the Beasts are not meant to be a metaphor for what marginalized actually do, but rather for how the bigots SEE those acts. Of course, this doesn't work in the slightest, because they have a crazy lady almost kill a teenager for stealing candy.
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Jun 8, 2015 14:32
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As a mind/matter mage in a group of 3 vampires, how do I avoid blowing past the others in everything, yet while still remaining a unique asset to the team? Alternatively how do I gently caress with them the most?
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Jun 8, 2015 14:33
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Is it in any way ironic that the splat with the biggest overt emphasis on family (Vampire wins for actual use) has the least connection? I admit to also liking Beast's mechanics, but mostly in a jealous, fist-shaking "This should have been theirs!" sort of way. My best players have all agreed, though, that the setting material as written is too grotesque and dull to play. That being said, I have a Mage game or two I'm running, one centred around classical heroics, the other around dealing with sicknesses of the collective soul(s) of humanity. A Beast would make a tremendous villain in either; a hydra for Hercules, a disease for the doctor. Beasts really do make pretty excellent prepackaged villains.
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Jun 8, 2015 14:35
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MonsieurChoc posted:After thinking about it while trying to sleep yesterday, I think I get what they were going for. Now, apparently Beasts are meant to be a stand-in for marginalized group, with Heroes being a stand-in for the bigots who hate them for no adequate reason. So why then have the Beasts do terrible acts, justifying the Heroes? Well, look at Republicans and Fox News. They loathe homosexuals and think that what they do is unnatural and horrifying. The terrible acts of the Beasts are not meant to be a metaphor for what marginalized actually do, but rather for how the bigots SEE those acts. Agreed. I can see the idea they wanted there, but that's not what's come across in text. EDIT: Axelgear posted:Is it in any way ironic that the splat with the biggest overt emphasis on family (Vampire wins for actual use) has the least connection? Also agreed with this particularly the mechanics bit. There's a lot on Beast that makes me sad because it's stapled to the Abuse: the Justification rather than Changeling, Promethean, or hell something like Vampire or Werewolf, even.
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Jun 8, 2015 14:35
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There's also a weird thing where the game is written like it assumes that Beasts have suffered persecution throughout history at the hands of Heroes and your PCs finally turning the tables, but in fact the only oppression they suffer is from the occasional psycho - they don't even have a masquerade to enforce. If there was some grand, structural element in society that hunted beasts down (and most beasts aren't abusive shitlords and instead mostly sit in their lair trying to be left alone) the themes would work a *lot* better. Again, it all just doesn't line up.
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Jun 8, 2015 14:38
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I think I saw Stephen Lea Sheppard suggest on rpg.net that if you reversed the chronological order entirely - Heroes have always existed, and they periodically generate Beasts to slay, and you're one of the few Beasts that managed to flip the script and escape - then at least the stuff about subverting narratives would begin to make even the slightest bit of sense.
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Jun 8, 2015 14:40
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CommissarMega posted:Honestly, I for one would like Beasts more if they were unrepentantly dickish. Maybe you want to be Snidely Whiplash, maybe you want to be O'Brien from 1984. Whatever, you're a bad guy, the worst of the worst, go forth and do your thing. Slashers are playable, after all. That would work too. but as long as they're hell bent on justifying the Beast's actions then they need to actually justify them. Saying they're justified while a beast murders people for wandering near his lake because they might be there to get his girlfriend's treasure is just idiotic. MonsieurChoc posted:After thinking about it while trying to sleep yesterday, I think I get what they were going for. Now, apparently Beasts are meant to be a stand-in for marginalized group, with Heroes being a stand-in for the bigots who hate them for no adequate reason. So why then have the Beasts do terrible acts, justifying the Heroes? Well, look at Republicans and Fox News. They loathe homosexuals and think that what they do is unnatural and horrifying. The terrible acts of the Beasts are not meant to be a metaphor for what marginalized actually do, but rather for how the bigots SEE those acts.
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Jun 8, 2015 14:42
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Ferrinus posted:I think I saw Stephen Lea Sheppard suggest on rpg.net that if you reversed the chronological order entirely - Heroes have always existed, and they periodically generate Beasts to slay, and you're one of the few Beasts that managed to flip the script and escape - then at least the stuff about subverting narratives would begin to make even the slightest bit of sense. Yeah, that'd be so much better. It even makes sense of why all your powers, your very existence causes suffering, because it was forced upon you to make you someone's one-dimensional antagonist. Your endgames could be becoming the biggest, baddest monster to never get hunted again, to force the beast soul out of you and go back to life, or to steal the heroes' power and fuse it with the beast power to free yourself from legends.
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Jun 8, 2015 14:45
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Flavivirus posted:There's also a weird thing where the game is written like it assumes that Beasts have suffered persecution throughout history at the hands of Heroes and your PCs finally turning the tables, but in fact the only oppression they suffer is from the occasional psycho - they don't even have a masquerade to enforce. If there was some grand, structural element in society that hunted beasts down (and most beasts aren't abusive shitlords and instead mostly sit in their lair trying to be left alone) the themes would work a *lot* better. Again, it all just doesn't line up. Yeah, actually, Lair mechanics give a perfect place for Beast to go "So Heroes come up and randomly start harassing people who just want to be left alone". Although there, really, we're stepping into Promethean territory, making me wonder what beasts are for. Ferrinus posted:I think I saw Stephen Lea Sheppard suggest on rpg.net that if you reversed the chronological order entirely - Heroes have always existed, and they periodically generate Beasts to slay, and you're one of the few Beasts that managed to flip the script and escape - then at least the stuff about subverting narratives would begin to make even the slightest bit of sense. This would also be a massive improvement, and it instantly fixes the issue that even if they were kind of jerks, Heroes got mind-whammied into going on a suicidal quest to kill monsters, thus making the whole thing kind of tragic rather than a clear example of how terrible people who call trilbys fedoras and comatose teenage girls are. Have Heroes be a thing that always existed, even better if it's a thing that they actively picked to do, as a choice (because right now their lack of agency is just kind of sad rather than a mark against them), and that Beasts were the ones who never asked to end up as what they are. You could even make the criteria of becoming a Beast to be transgressive; not even negatively transgressive, but just upset a Hero's sense of what should be normal and proper. For daring to hold non-mainstream views, you get a crazy monster soul and obsessive crusading assholes chasing you. Almost all Beast's issues evaporate then, even if they are still friends with other splats* and the ones who do bad stuff now benefit from the same sympathy Heroes currently do because at least they got it forced on them. *Though frankly their relationship with changelings is bad bad bad. Their relationship with Prometheans I can live with but I'd want the idea that Beasts are wrong and unhelpful to them to be a bit more obvious in text. RichT also posted this on the OP forums: quote:90-99% done doesn't mean we cant or won't edit sections that require it, or rewrite material that didn't come across as intended. Part of the reason for putting out the text with the KS is so we can hear and respond to comments about the book before we have gone into the next phase of the production process. We are aware of folks' concerns and are discussing what tweaks to the material could help to resolve any issues where the authors' intent didn't come through. Thanks. So maybe this'll get sorted out after all.
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Jun 8, 2015 14:47
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Kurieg posted:The Metaphor doesn't work because the heroes aren't wrong. For that metaphor to work the acts the heroes rail against would need to be completely imaginary, and they're not. The only part that does sort of fit that narrative is if a Hero uses the Entrancement Anathema on them, forcing them to want something they otherwise wouldn't. Yeah, I know. I was just tyring to guess what the authors were going for, not what they actually accomplished.
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Jun 8, 2015 14:47
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I've seen it argued that not all Beasts necessarily go around tormenting and murdering people and some of them pick retributive targets. Given the ratios, though, I'm not sure how good an argument it is.
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Jun 8, 2015 14:51
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Hell, if you have the case that being this thing was forced on you by someone else's story, you also have a good reason that other splats act oddly friendly towards them. "They're all monsters, whatever, they're probably all in cahoots!" doesn't sound like an uncommon way a crusading psychopath would think, leading to a vampire being really confused about why he pals around with the Beast until they both realize something's up. But that keeps coming back to the idea we've hit consistently in this thread, that the real foe of this narrative should be the narrative.
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Jun 8, 2015 14:53
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The people making the arguments that Beasts are good stand-ins for marginalized groups are ignoring that, in more situations than not, the Beasts are the ones marginalizing people and using their entrenched power over others, and basically never the reverse. They outright emulate real, actual abusers more often than they fight that sort of thing, and the explicit narrative is that their victims, who suffer the same things people in real life (myself included) have suffered, deserved it. Of course when I tried to talk about this on RPG.net a mod redtext'd me for "insulting the authors" and stuff, in regards to my paragraph that Beast did not spontaneously generate, it was created by actual people who chose to put these elements into it, using the language and excuses of actual abusers to justify the Beasts' actions and making a world where these excuses are true, and since RPG.net bans people if they respond to mods I cannot object, I've been completely shut down for something I didn't even say. While there's room for a joke there that accusing someone of writing Beast is apparently a grievous insult, the whole affair has left me rather disgusted.
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Jun 8, 2015 14:56
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The tools are also present to treat Beasts to be horrific, racist stereotypes.The stingy Jew banker who delights in tormenting the working class, the "welfare queen" in her Cadillac, the sinister foreigner here to spread disease and steal jobs. They become the literal monsters imagined by racists and hate groups. And there doesn't seem to be any guidance as to who gets "punished" or what criteria is used. Stealing candy gets you poisoned and suffocated... what violence is justified against those who "assault traditional marriage" or live "alternate lifestyles." Maybe having too many tattoos or tolerating diversity offends a Beast. Who even loving knows. In any case, the game tells us the Beast is Always Right, which is a socially irresponsible message. It's Jack Bauer syndrome on a massive scale.
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Jun 8, 2015 15:01
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