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VitalSigns posted:You have to have an assload of money for PPACA or UHC to actually be a bad risk for you economically compared with what Republicans are offering. Or people actually look at a real single payer system like the VHA and figure the self-interest scales aren't quite so close to tipping yet.
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Jun 8, 2015 20:54
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Franco Potente posted:Walker, Huckabee. Maybe Rubio. Comedy answer: Santorum. Santorum is on the lips of every young republican male.
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Jun 8, 2015 20:54
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TheDisreputableDog posted:Or people actually look at a real single payer system like the VHA and figure the self-interest scales aren't quite so close to tipping yet. People who have VHA care prefer it to what they'd be able to afford through private insurance, and VHA outperforms or equals private insurance in a ton of metrics, so if you look at VHA you should want that sort of care. I definitely would. We should fund it more though, it's also amazingly more cost effective than private insurance. Have any of the GOP hopefuls actually put up a real healthcare proposal? Obdicut fucked around with this message at 20:59 on Jun 8, 2015 |
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Jun 8, 2015 20:56
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TheDisreputableDog posted:Or people actually look at a real single payer system like the VHA and figure the self-interest scales aren't quite so close to tipping yet. Yes, the rational response to disabled soliders and veterans getting hosed over by the backlogged underfunded VA is to vote for more austerity at home and ground wars abroad, you've got it.
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Jun 8, 2015 20:57
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TheDisreputableDog posted:Or people actually look at a real single payer system like the VHA and figure the self-interest scales aren't quite so close to tipping yet. Mmm, yes. The VHA is totally the model that people talk about when they talk about single payer systems. You know, since it operates completely different from something like Canada or the UK NHS. Yes. Totally. No the reason we don't have national healthcare is because both times we had an opportunity to do it (Truman and Nixon) stuff got in the way (COMMUNISM IS BAD! and Watergate.) And now the system is so heavily entrenched and insurance and pharma have so much leverage that it would be nearly impossible to transition directly.
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Jun 8, 2015 21:03
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TheDisreputableDog posted:Or people actually look at a real single payer system like the VHA and figure the self-interest scales aren't quite so close to tipping yet. Actually, it's been pretty conclusively shown that the VA delivers equal or better healthcare on nearly every metric across the board at a lower cost than the private system. What you're saying is an unfortunately common belief, but it is provably false.
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Jun 8, 2015 21:03
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Scott Walker's campaign wants to make sure you know that he also ate ribs without gloves on.
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Jun 8, 2015 21:04
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Not as depressing as Sarah Palin eating NEW YORK PIZZA (actually Sabaro's) with Trump using a knife and fork.
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Jun 8, 2015 21:05
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All I want for my birthday is for that Walker photo to be revealed as taken two days later in a studio after people made fun of him for wearing gloves as desperate damage control.
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Jun 8, 2015 21:07
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Joementum posted:Scott Walker's campaign wants to make sure you know that he also ate ribs without gloves on. I know it got laughs here, but I'm surprised they even dignified it with a response. This seems like one of those times you just ignore it but make sure it doesn't happen again... Radish posted:All I want for my birthday is for that Walker photo to be revealed as taken two days later in a studio after people made fun of him for wearing gloves as desperate damage control. Yeah, exactly.
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Jun 8, 2015 21:08
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I won't be satisfied until each candidate eats an Its It the way it's meant to be eaten, awkwardly holding it in the cellophane, desperately chomping at the giant chocolate covered mass as it melts, getting it all over their fat loving faces.
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Jun 8, 2015 21:09
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Obdicut posted:Have any of the GOP hopefuls actually put up a real healthcare proposal? Like Hillary, just generic blurbs at this point.
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Jun 8, 2015 21:09
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Radish posted:All I want for my birthday is for that Walker photo to be revealed as taken two days later in a studio after people made fun of him for wearing gloves as desperate damage control. remember when paul ryan made them give him a bunch of clean dishes to wash
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Jun 8, 2015 21:09
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TheDisreputableDog posted:Like Hillary, just generic blurbs at this point. Luckily, the Democrats already did the ACA, which, while flawed and crippled by rear end in a top hat conservatives, was a genuine step forward, so she can campaign on that and on improving it.
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Jun 8, 2015 21:10
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Obdicut posted:Luckily, the Democrats already did the ACA, which, while flawed and crippled by rear end in a top hat conservatives, was a genuine step forward, so she can campaign on that and on improving it. Reminder that until Obama proposed it, it was their standard idea.
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Jun 8, 2015 21:11
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:remember when paul ryan made them give him a bunch of clean dishes to wash and then when the shelter asked not to be used for political purposes all the charitable right wingers decided to pull their monetary support?
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Jun 8, 2015 21:12
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Cantorsdust posted:Actually, it's been pretty conclusively shown that the VA delivers equal or better healthcare on nearly every metric across the board at a lower cost than the private system. What you're saying is an unfortunately common belief, but it is provably false. The qualitative studies you linked use data from 2005 and 2009. The recent one only looks at cost. I'm not really sure why people would consider a bureaucratic maze of waiting lists resulting in deliberately underreported deaths to be a negative outcome though.
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Jun 8, 2015 21:12
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Radish posted:and then when the shelter asked not to be used for political purposes all the charitable right wingers decided to pull their monetary support? Yeah, I can only hope this election is as glorious.
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Jun 8, 2015 21:14
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Obdicut posted:I won't be satisfied until each candidate eats an Its It the way it's meant to be eaten, awkwardly holding it in the cellophane, desperately chomping at the giant chocolate covered mass as it melts, getting it all over their fat loving faces. That's one of the least awkward-looking half-eaten It's Its I've ever seen in my life.
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Jun 8, 2015 21:15
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TheDisreputableDog posted:
But enough about private insurers. Jerry Manderbilt posted:That's one of the least awkward-looking half-eaten It's Its I've ever seen in my life. You're right. I can't find any pictures of the mess they actually make. Clearly a conspiracy by the Shamieh brothers. Obdicut fucked around with this message at 21:17 on Jun 8, 2015 |
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Jun 8, 2015 21:15
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Obdicut posted:Luckily, the Democrats already did the ACA, which, while flawed and crippled by rear end in a top hat conservatives, was a genuine step forward, so she can campaign on that and on improving it. So despite garnering zero Republican votes, pushed through two Democratic chambers, and signed into law by a Democrat, the flaws of the ACA are the Republicans' fault. ...
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Jun 8, 2015 21:17
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TheDisreputableDog posted:The qualitative studies you linked use data from 2005 and 2009. The recent one only looks at cost. Do you suddenly expect health care costs in the private sector to decrease after the mid 2000s? This type of data takes a long time to work its way through analysis and publication. And the first study I posted was a systematic review, the absolute strongest level of evidence, which is only looking at studies after large numbers of them have been posted, which takes time. Along with that is a Congressional Budget Office (nonpartisan!) analysis which I included to support my claim that the VA is providing its care at a lower cost. Finally, we have a think-tank (Rand Corp) analysis of past studies which shows that the VA beat the private healthcare system on every loving metric except for acute care, where it tied. That's really loving good. And that's with the VA being chronically underfunded, with a culture suffering from corruption and apathy at every level. And it still beats private healthcare. Where's your recent data to show otherwise?
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Jun 8, 2015 21:18
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Obdicut posted:I won't be satisfied until each candidate eats an Its It the way it's meant to be eaten, awkwardly holding it in the cellophane, desperately chomping at the giant chocolate covered mass as it melts, getting it all over their fat loving faces. What the hell is this
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Jun 8, 2015 21:18
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TheDisreputableDog posted:So despite garnering zero Republican votes, pushed through two Democratic chambers, and signed into law by a Democrat, the flaws of the ACA are the Republicans' fault. Well, the Republicans definitely damaged popular support for it by lying their stupid asses off as they do on the reg these days--like you with the VHA, for example--but mainly I was talking about conservative Democrats.
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Jun 8, 2015 21:18
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EugeneJ posted:Calling something "racist" is lazy and counterproductive. I know black politicians who are corrupt and do unspeakable things to take advantage of their community. The blacks need people they can trust - not preachers and politicians who take advantage of them, then keep them entrenched in poverty. So, when cops treat blacks more harshly than whites- despite their being no more likely to commit a crime in the first place, what do you call it, if not racism? African-American focused corruption?
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Jun 8, 2015 21:25
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Will we see a picture of O'Malley eating lake trout?
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Jun 8, 2015 21:27
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TheDisreputableDog posted:So despite garnering zero Republican votes, pushed through two Democratic chambers, and signed into law by a Democrat, the flaws of the ACA are the Republicans' fault. If they hadn't spent months screaming about SOCIALIST DEATH PANELS  then perhaps some less Tea Party-ish Republicans could have been persuaded to vote for it before the watering-down provisions were placed in it. They're certainly responsible for the glut of misinformation in the years after the law was passed, that's for sure.
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Jun 8, 2015 21:32
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Cantorsdust posted:And that's with the VA being chronically underfunded, with a culture suffering from corruption and apathy at every level. And it still beats private healthcare. Where's your recent data to show otherwise? It beats private healthcare so soundly that they had to pass a law empowering patients to go private if they couldn't get an appointment within thirty days. It was recently pilloried by the GAO for a number of issues, including poor outcomes.
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Jun 8, 2015 21:34
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TheDisreputableDog posted:It beats private healthcare so soundly that they had to pass a law empowering patients to go private if they couldn't get an appointment within thirty days. It was recently pilloried by the GAO for a number of issues, including poor outcomes. And yet the numbers still clearly show it's better. What does that say about the state of private healthcare, then? Do you have any response to my data?
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Jun 8, 2015 21:40
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Cantorsdust posted:And yet the numbers still clearly show it's better. What does that say about the state of private healthcare, then? Do you have any response to my data? His response will be to dodge it or red-herring it or otherwise obfuscate. That's how he earned that big red text: his bullshit isn't even interesting, it's just the generic GOP bullshit you can get literally anywhere. He's the 5 cent version.
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Jun 8, 2015 21:45
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Franco Potente posted:Walker, Huckabee. Maybe Rubio. Comedy answer: Santorum. Keep in mind that just as important as who wins is how well they did relative to expectations. Walker is expected to do well simply because he is a governor of a neighboring state, so there's not a lot of upside in winning Iowa (outside of the headlines) but a lot of downside if he can't. Conversely, getting second place in Iowa is a bigger prize given Walker's likely dominance.
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Jun 8, 2015 21:46
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Mister Macys posted:So, when cops treat blacks more harshly than whites- despite their being no more likely to commit a crime in the first place, what do you call it, if not racism? Is it racism if someone's doing it not because they dislike black people or think less of them, but simply because they think they can get away with it? Is it racist if the cop is black? What if the police force is, on the whole, mostly black, and they still target black people? Obviously the system is racist if that's the case, but is crass opportunism a racist act in and of itself, or does it merely have racist results when expressed through a racist system? I completely disagree with EugeneJ's attitude, but he is right that simply calling racism is lazy. It's a complicated issue, and it's often difficult to explain the actual problem, forget making real proposals to change things. But we do need them. I'd really like Bernie (and Hillary) to do is make some concrete proposals on what we can actually do about it on par with his economic proposals - even if they aren't perfect, I want them to exist. Bernie's economic proposals, a high tide that will hopefully lift all boats, but it won't change the fact that black people in this countries have inherited some pretty rickety boats and thus have a higher chance of drowning, and he does seem disinclined to make any suggestions for improving that situation. To stretch an analogy. His problems address the plight of the lower class, but don't address the problem that black people are institutionalized as a member of that class by the structures and systems in this country. So yes, his policies would help racial minorities. But it certainly doesn't deal with the root causes of racism, only limits some of the damage it can do at the very worst end.
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Jun 8, 2015 21:46
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Cantorsdust posted:And yet the numbers still clearly show it's better. What does that say about the state of private healthcare, then? Do you have any response to my data? I just pointed out that outcomes and wait times were being deliberately and systematically misreported for who knows how long. So, in made up "we don't kill people while they're waiting for care" fantasyland, yes the numbers look good.
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Jun 8, 2015 21:54
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Vienna Circlejerk posted:Will we see a picture of O'Malley eating lake trout? He'll be eating crabs if he knows what's good for him; picking them from the pile in the center of the table, a table covered in the Baltimore Sun.
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Jun 8, 2015 21:54
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Vienna Circlejerk posted:Will we see a picture of O'Malley eating lake trout? Carcetti strikes me as more of a pit beef kinda guy.
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Jun 8, 2015 22:11
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Sorus posted:He'll be eating crabs if he knows what's good for him; picking them from the pile in the center of the table, a table covered in the Baltimore Sun. Just so long as it's not scrod.
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Jun 8, 2015 22:14
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Jun 8, 2015 22:21
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http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/presidential-races/244251-sanders-pulls-within-8-points-of-clinton-in-wisconsinquote:Wisconsin Democrats might not be ready for Hillary Clinton, as Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) finished just 8 percentage points behind Clinton in a new Badger State straw poll. Will America be doomed with the Racist Bernie Sanders?
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Jun 8, 2015 22:25
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GlyphGryph posted:Is it racism if someone's doing it not because they dislike black people or think less of them, but simply because they think they can get away with it? Is it racist if the cop is black? What if the police force is, on the whole, mostly black, and they still target black people? Obviously the system is racist if that's the case, but is crass opportunism a racist act in and of itself, or does it merely have racist results when expressed through a racist system? I completely disagree with EugeneJ's attitude, but he is right that simply calling racism is lazy. It's a complicated issue, and it's often difficult to explain the actual problem, forget making real proposals to change things. I think you misunderstood my statement. I was disagreeing with Eugene. In this chicken and egg scenario, I'm of the belief that it's the systemic racism dating back to before the founding that had led to the racially prejudiced corruption that exists. This is one of the areas where I disagree with Bernie. Money won't make the poor and minorities equal, merely better able to fight back after the fact. Also, it's totally possible to be racist against your own. It's called, "I'm one of the  good ones. Those hoodlums just don't know how to straighten up and fly right like I did and they need to be taught a lesson. I chose to protect the law, they chose to be thugs and break it. If they want to act like wild animals they'll be put down, hard."
Mister Facetious fucked around with this message at 23:57 on Jun 8, 2015 |
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Jun 8, 2015 22:26
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Sheng-ji Yang posted:http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/presidential-races/244251-sanders-pulls-within-8-points-of-clinton-in-wisconsin It's a straw poll. Ron Paul is not the nominee for the GOP. Instead of mocking people who are bringing up the issues that Sanders has in getting minority support, maybe you should engage with them? You can still support Sanders and admit his flaws, it's okay.
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Jun 8, 2015 22:28
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