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Prokhor Zakharov posted:Here's a theory: Bethesda had no idea what to do with the setting and ended up making a lot of mistakes in regards to world/lore huilding I feel like they're just too afraid to take any risks and that's why you get bland poo poo like: MEHRUNES DAGON SOME REHASHES OF THINGS INTERPLAY DID FOR FALLOUT 1+2, FEAT. POPULAR ACTOR LIAM NEESON HEY GUYS ELDER SCROLLS HAS DRAGONS NOW good lord bethesda just actually try to write something interesting
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Jun 8, 2015 23:33
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Shugojin posted:good lord bethesda just actually try to write something interesting
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Jun 8, 2015 23:35
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The thing is it's really hard to predict anything about FO4. We can look at fallout 3 (2008) and FNV (2010) and use those as a point of reference, but how useful is that really? FNV was so much more open ended than FO3, and they made huge improvements in basically everything in just 2 years. Now, they've had FIVE years to let their imaginations run wild on the possibilities of what they can do to expand the game and make it work. I don't really think saying "I don't like FNV because X, so I probably won't care about FO4" is good logic. There's going to be a lot of things in the game that are completely unrecognizable.
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Jun 8, 2015 23:36
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i mean their games sell really well because people like loving around in a world but when people typically just ignore your main quests you should probably like, i dunno consider trying harder on them
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Jun 8, 2015 23:36
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Or continue having a lame main quest and have all the other stuff be that much better.
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Jun 8, 2015 23:46
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Filthy Casual posted:Or continue having a lame main quest and have all the other stuff be that much better. ah yes a tactic that lead to great strides such as guild quests that take an hour each and then fart around with radiant quests for the rest of forever
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Jun 8, 2015 23:53
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I mean for gently caress's sake Radiant Quests are basically the Fighter's Guild in Oblivion except that actually ended.
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Jun 8, 2015 23:54
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I really liked the guild quests apart from the Companions, but the radiant stuff was really dumb.
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Jun 8, 2015 23:54
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The Skyrim guilds were beyond terrible. I don't think anyone here is stupid enough to defend them. e: oh jesus christ you Filthy Casual
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Jun 8, 2015 23:56
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icantfindaname posted:I'm saying Fallout 3 and New Vegas are badly written games. I don't give a gently caress about canon or the authors' ownership of the property and my critique is not that they're using a property that they don't have a right to or whatever, it's that the characters and dialogue and story is bad and that it is prominent enough in those games to worsen the experience for me. The Fallout world doesn't feel fleshed out enough to me to be able to just plunk the player down in it and say "have fun" with a boilerplate main quest like Skyrim, so they have to shoehorn in terrible narrative poo poo with the factions and make that the focus of the game I'm still not certain about where your opinion is coming from. It's logical that factions such as the Brotherhood of Steel, the NCR, and so on could move one state over. Not sure what the "fanfiction" accusation means at all. Do you just want a brand new story period? Also, I'm not sure what your fascination with Skyrim's main quest is. It's pretty dull and nothing interesting happens because I don't care about anyone in it because it's so detached from the player. Why would I want to continue a roleplaying game if I can't find any meaningful conflict or interesting characters to meet up with? gently caress, I wouldn't play D&D with a DM who just led me from generic dungeon to dungeon.
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Jun 8, 2015 23:57
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MisterBibs posted:I don't get the "Fallout 3 is fanfiction" thing. It's not fanfiction if the folks writing the property own the property. It's just... ya know, fiction by the author. 
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Jun 8, 2015 23:59
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Filthy Casual posted:I really liked the guild quests apart from the Companions, but the radiant stuff was really dumb. I liked the idea behind the radiant quests. It's occasionally nice to just do a quick one-off quest for some change and a bit of XP, without having to dive into some bigass storyline. Or when you've completed all the questline for a specific guild but want to do a few more quests in a certain style they have you covered. If you don't want to do them, nothing lost. If you do, all the better. What I don't like, AT ALL, is using radiant quests to pad out main questlines or shorten questlines because they assume the player will do radiant quests to make up the difference. It's lazy and a big middle finger to your fanbase. Skyrim's guild questlines suffered from being too short (likely due to radiant quests) and not having decent skill checks for relevant skills (Seriously, two loving spells to become an archmage?). Thieves Guild was a good example of how it should have been - bunch of radiant quests you could do to flesh out the guild, didn't prevent you from advancing in the main TG questline if you didn't do them, but if you did they rewarded you with extra vendors + gold + whatever. Not saying I liked the TG quest itself, just that I liked how they mixed the main questline with the radiant quests without shortening it too much. I hope there ARE radiant quests in FO4 but that they're NOT tied in with major faction questlines so that they can simply be done or ignored as each player decides. A job board with random poo poo thrown on it is pretty much exactly how I envision a good radiant quest system to be. Not every job posted to a job board needs to be an epic adventure, sometimes you gotta do the little lost cat quests just because you're a good guy. Unless you're not good and you skin the cat and hand its bloody intestines to the little orphan owner. You monster. khy fucked around with this message at 00:08 on Jun 9, 2015 |
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Jun 9, 2015 00:01
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The guild quests in skyrim just felt really rushed and unfinished more than outright terrible. Like, padding and filler quests obviously suck, but there were jumps from point A to point Z that felt like they skipped half the alphabet along the way. Especially with the Mages questline. Started off pretty promising but could have used a lot more stuff going on leading up to the conclusion and a better epilogue with the Psijic Order or even just the College itself would've been nice. At least the Dark Brotherhood had some kind of sensible progression as you worked your way through the ranks, capping off with a nice betrayal twist, and a pretty rad couple of final missions. The Thieves guild was probably the poorest written, since so little of any of it had to do with thievery at all. Tying them to a daedric prince was a cool concept but the whole execution of the nightingale plotline with mercer, karliah and gallus was awful. The plot progression just felt like an excuse to lead the PC to the major cities around the map without really putting any thought or effort into the overarching story they were trying to tell. The Companions were alright I guess, just kinda bland and it didn't help that the werewolf transformation/perk was really underwhelming.
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Jun 9, 2015 00:05
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SunAndSpring posted:I'm still not certain about where your opinion is coming from. It's logical that factions such as the Brotherhood of Steel, the NCR, and so on could move one state over. Not sure what the "fanfiction" accusation means at all. Do you just want a brand new story period? Also, I'm not sure what your fascination with Skyrim's main quest is. It's pretty dull and nothing interesting happens because I don't care about anyone in it because it's so detached from the player. Why would I want to continue a roleplaying game if I can't find any meaningful conflict or interesting characters to meet up with? gently caress, I wouldn't play D&D with a DM who just led me from generic dungeon to dungeon. My point is Skyrim's story was mostly ignorable, New Vegas' story was not. And I don't know what to say if you think the faction conflict poo poo in New Vegas was meaningful or interesting, the factions were literally reskins of each other with parallel quest structures and poo poo. If that's the best narrative the genre has to offer then I'll take shuffling between generic dungeons any day of the week. I unironically think Skyrim's world was more interesting and less generic than New Veags's. Maybe I just don't like 50s Americana poo poo, but it feels like there's not much depth there. Hence why they needed to bring back all the old actors and stuff from the first two games icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 00:11 on Jun 9, 2015 |
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Jun 9, 2015 00:08
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I also felt that the College of Winterhold quest line was too short and left me wanting more but what they had was good. I was happy with everything else for the most part.
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Jun 9, 2015 00:09
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Xavier434 posted:I also felt that the College of Winterhold quest line was too short and left me wanting more but what they had was good. I was happy with everything else for the most part. CoW was too short and needed more skill checks. Archmage when you don't have a single magic skill above 25 is not good design.
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Jun 9, 2015 00:13
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icantfindaname posted:My point is Skyrim's story was mostly ignorable, New Vegas' story was not. And I don't know what to say if you think the faction conflict poo poo in New Vegas was meaningful or interesting, the factions were literally reskins of each other with parallel quest structures and poo poo. If that's the best narrative the genre has to offer then I'll take shuffling between generic dungeons any day of the week They all seemed pretty different to me. While there are shared goals between most or all of them (Deal with the bunker under Caesar's fort, get rid of House, secure the dam), each faction sends you to deal with different groups and demands you deal with certain ones in a specific way. I suppose you just wanted a more freeform game and that's cool. But I feel like you're really giving the game an unfair shake because it isn't your thing.
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Jun 9, 2015 00:14
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icantfindaname posted:I unironically think Skyrim's world was more interesting and less generic than New Veags's. What the god drat hell is wrong with your brain. Generic fantasy Viking Land with dragons was less than generic than Fallout anything to you?
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Jun 9, 2015 00:15
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khy posted:
The Guild jobs did own, and having the bonus of being able to bribe guards to clear your name without confiscating equipment was huge. I hated that you were left to the mercy of random city selection, because on the last city it always seem to take about 7-10 jobs to get the one you needed. The actual Thieves Guild story was dumb, but the missions themselves are a lot of fun, especially if a low-to-no-kill approach is taken.
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Jun 9, 2015 00:16
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New Vegas is fantastic, but I'm still not convinced about Roman Bad Guys
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Jun 9, 2015 00:16
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They should have had the Caesar's Legion be insufferable, physically weak, hyperintelligent pre-war Roman reenactors.
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Jun 9, 2015 00:18
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The Droid posted:What the god drat hell is wrong with your brain. Generic fantasy Viking Land with dragons was less than generic than Fallout anything to you? I don't consume a ton of fantasy media so I'm not saturated with that stuff, but yeah. Steampunk and 50s Americana / Victorian England fetishization is like the only thing even worse and more boring than generic fantasy
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Jun 9, 2015 00:21
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I would've like the Legion much better if they weren't all wearing football equipment. If it was just the grunts who were stuck with the sports surplus, that would be fine, but everyone from the bottom to the top is decked out for the big Homecoming game.
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Jun 9, 2015 00:22
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icantfindaname posted:I don't consume a ton of fantasy media so I'm not saturated with that stuff, but yeah. Steampunk and 50s Americana fetishization is like the only thing even worse and more boring than generic fantasy
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Jun 9, 2015 00:22
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SunAndSpring posted:I would've like the Legion much better if they weren't all wearing football equipment. If it was just the grunts who were stuck with the sports surplus, that would be fine, but everyone from the bottom to the top is decked out for the big Homecoming game. Didn't the Legate have actual Romanesque armour?
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Jun 9, 2015 00:22
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Shugojin posted:HEY GUYS ELDER SCROLLS HAS DRAGONS NOW Dragons were part of ES since 1998.
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Jun 9, 2015 00:23
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icantfindaname posted:I don't consume a ton of fantasy media so I'm not saturated with that stuff, but yeah. Steampunk and 50s Americana fetishization is like the only thing even worse and more boring than generic fantasy Fallout is not steampunk and it is mocking 50's Americana, not putting it on a pedestal.
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Jun 9, 2015 00:23
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The Droid posted:Fallout is not steampunk and it is mocking 50's Americana, not putting it on a pedestal. It may as well be, and no it isn't because the writers aren't good or clever enough to do that. Same goes for Bioshock
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Jun 9, 2015 00:24
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FutonForensic posted:Dragons were part of ES since 1998. Yeah I know but they weren't like, the centerpiece.
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Jun 9, 2015 00:25
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Noctis Horrendae posted:Didn't the Legate have actual Romanesque armour? Yeah, and the Centurions. Everyone else is stuck with shoulder-pads and cups. icantfindaname posted:I don't consume a ton of fantasy media so I'm not saturated with that stuff, but yeah. Steampunk and 50s Americana / Victorian England fetishization is like the only thing even worse and more boring than generic fantasy Fallout is an entire series mocking the very idea of Americana and 50's culture. I feel you've missed the point of everything.
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Jun 9, 2015 00:26
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Anime Schoolgirl posted:Read Tolkien, that'll kill your boner for anything fantasy right quick I'd love to see Obsidian make fun of the Elder Scrolls series if they're ever commissioned for a future Fallout game again, by having an island community that has based their lifestyle after a Tolkien-esque fantasy writer. It'd be like Lord of the Rings meets Zardoz. edit: Also holy poo poo you have to be stupid not to realize that the Fallout series is a satire of Cold War paranoia, 50's Americana and uberpatriot jingoism. It's not all there is to the series but it's very closely tied to it.
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Jun 9, 2015 00:27
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Shugojin posted:Yeah I know but they weren't like, the centerpiece. They were also extinct by-and-large
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Jun 9, 2015 00:27
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icantfindaname posted:It may as well be, and no it isn't because the writers aren't good or clever enough to do that. Same goes for Bioshock I still don't get you, man. They've shown off the pre-war 50's inspired culture to be full of paranoid witch-hunters and war-mongers. How'd they fail about making that point, asides from maybe too heavy-handed about some of it? Also where are you getting the steampunk poo poo from?
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Jun 9, 2015 00:32
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SunAndSpring posted:I still don't get you, man. They've shown off the pre-war 50's inspired culture to be full of paranoid witch-hunters and war-mongers. How'd they fail about making that point, asides from maybe too heavy-handed about some of it? 
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Jun 9, 2015 00:35
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Anime Schoolgirl posted:Vacuum tubes are steampunk right Only thing I can think of that was remotely steampunk was that gun in Fallout 3 that was made out of a steam engine and shot spikes. I suppose there's a punk influence from Road Warrior, what with the leather-bound raiders and ramshackle survivors wearing make-shift armor and fortifications made out of scrap metal.
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Jun 9, 2015 00:39
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SunAndSpring posted:I still don't get you, man. They've shown off the pre-war 50's inspired culture to be full of paranoid witch-hunters and war-mongers. How'd they fail about making that point, asides from maybe too heavy-handed about some of it? Because it's impossible to criticize something like that while simultaneously soaking everything about the world's aesthetic in it, especially when the game's main appeal is in loving around and having fun in that world. I'm reminded of the Far Cry 3 thing where the game's writers intended to write a satire or parody and it ended up being indistinguishable from the real thing. It doesn't matter what the authors intended, the game's tone still comes out as "isn't 50s retro-futurism so cool???  " Self-awareness isn't the same thing as critique. And it is the exact same situation as steampunk, fetishization of that historical setting and aesthetic while somehow being convinced it's a critique of it at the same time
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Jun 9, 2015 00:39
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icantfindaname posted:Because it's impossible to criticize something like that while simultaneously soaking everything about the world's aesthetic in it, especially when the game's main appeal is in loving around and having fun in that world. I'm reminded of the Far Cry 3 thing where the game's writers intended to write a satire or parody and it ended up being indistinguishable from the real thing. It doesn't matter what the authors intended, the game's tone still comes out as "isn't 50s retro-futurism so cool??? Kind of a stretch to say that the world is soaked in the 50's setting when there's nothing left of that era but blasted-apart relics that the modern day survivors are trying to jerry rig into something useful.
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Jun 9, 2015 00:50
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cantfindaname is either actually retarded or trolling, either way we should probably stop talking to him.
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Jun 9, 2015 00:52
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King Vidiot posted:cantfindaname is either actually retarded or trolling, either way we should probably stop talking to him. What if he's both???? Not outside the realm of possibility here.
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Jun 9, 2015 00:54
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Couple things I was thinking of on my way home from work today. 1) Do you guys think that if Fallout hadn't been sold off and Black Isle had made 3 and onward, would the series have gained as much mass market appeal as it did? In your opinions, would it be more or less successful than Bethesda made it? 2) A lot of the Fallout appeal is the ruined cities, ruined structures, homes and dwellings and towns built out of makeshift rubble, debris, etc. Important landmarks are turned into important bases by the factions that take control. Let's say a new fallout title appears, and the survivors have started an organized cleanup, rebuilding, new materials, clearing up rubble, etc. Would it still be as interesting a world to play a game in? How would you guys see the future of the Fallout series? We can't stay in a wasteland forever after all...
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Jun 9, 2015 00:55
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