|
Tias posted:Potlach is an amazing institution, both in and out of warfare. Soldiers everywhere enjoy it - for instance, the red army had a variant where fighting teams pooled their vodka rations and gave them to one guy, so he could have a nights oblivion away from the hardships of the eastern front. I encountered one 17th century commander who ran out of silver table services to buy and decided he'd better order gilded ones next time.  (Edit: That stuff is also portable, it's not as likely as a land endowment from your paymaster to change hands when you're not looking due to the war, and it won't change in value like currency might.) HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 08:34 on Jun 9, 2015 |
#
?
Jun 9, 2015 08:26
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 6, 2024 01:19 |
|
|
What's interesting is that carriages with six horses each were normally restricted to sovereign kings for their personal use. If Wallenstein really did have fifty of them just for his servants it is a giant flaming gently caress YOU to the entire HRE.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2015 08:39
|
|
|
ArchangeI posted:What's interesting is that carriages with six horses each were normally restricted to sovereign kings for their personal use. If Wallenstein really did have fifty of them just for his servants it is a giant flaming gently caress YOU to the entire HRE. Also to his stablehands because holy poo poo imagine having to clean up after that.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2015 08:44
|
|
|
ArchangeI posted:What's interesting is that carriages with six horses each were normally restricted to sovereign kings for their personal use. If Wallenstein really did have fifty of them just for his servants it is a giant flaming gently caress YOU to the entire HRE. Edit: -More money for me -gently caress you HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 08:58 on Jun 9, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2015 08:51
|
|
|
He's like an original republican G  So I just learned today that the Soviet invasion of Xinjiang was a thing! It has all sorts of craziness, like planes dumping mustard gas on foes, soviet and white Russians joining forces to kick Chinese muslim rear end (and failing horribly!) and sheepskin-dressed infiltraters defeating a pincer maneuver on a frozen river with swords! Even after reading the background blurb, I'm still baffled that soviets and whites would join up. Anyone know more about this conflict? Tias fucked around with this message at 10:24 on Jun 9, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2015 10:20
|
|
|
100 Years Ago The Italian Army is finally crossing the Isonzo in force, about two weeks late. Do I even need to say how horribly, ridiculously wrong it goes? Meanwhile, on Gallipoli Kenneth Best appropriates an absent friend's possessions in the finest military tradition, and at Second Artois Louis Barthas is having yet more horribly harrowing experiences, one of which is quoted by most reviewers and I'm going to be no exception, although I'm taking just a little more than is usually said. His squad has a moment to themselves in the trenches, with the two men who were recently lit on fire by that flamethrower attack for company. One's just died, the other is still waiting for his bus home. quote:“If we weren’t all cowards”, said Terrisse, “those who wanted this war would be here in our place. Then we’d see!” C'est la guerre. Oh, and the paper is once again hawking Phosferine to prevent "Brain-Fag", which as a terminal case I will never get tired of.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2015 11:00
|
|
|
Tias posted:He's like an original republican G It's a case of nationalism trumping ideology. See also the CCP/KMT united front during the Sino-Japanese war, movements like Mladorossi and Smenovekhovtsy, and even today the agreement between the PRC and RoC that the Diaoyu/Senkaku islands belong to China.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2015 12:55
|
|
|
Fangz posted:It's a case of nationalism trumping ideology. See also the CCP/KMT united front during the Sino-Japanese war While true, it must be admitted that this called for Chiang Kai Shek's kidnapping by his own generals before he agreed that the Communists should take second priority - and he was pretty sulky about that afterwards, since he thought he was on the verge of wiping them out at the time. Also, the funnier bit about PRC/ROC relations is that from what I understand, the PRC doesn't actually contest the ROC's (frankly absurd by this point) claim to all of China because such a claim agrees with their view that there is only one China and Taiwan is a province within it. The fact that the two governments disagree on where the capital of that China is located is a mere quibble compared to that all-important agreement.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2015 13:30
|
|
|
Tomn posted:While true, it must be admitted that this called for Chiang Kai Shek's kidnapping by his own generals before he agreed that the Communists should take second priority - and he was pretty sulky about that afterwards, since he thought he was on the verge of wiping them out at the time. That sounds pretty reasonable, actually. It's a standard-fare unionist argument when it comes to questions of control. It's like the "United Korea" line from the North Koreans (possibly the South Koreans as well? I don't know whether they're as strident in wanting a united peninsula) where they frame the division as South Korea pretty much being a secessionist territory lured away from the prosperous Juche union by the capitalist siren song or whatever. China doesn't have the batty language of the Kims but it's certainly similar on the union issue. Heck, you probably had similar views from some people during the ACW.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2015 14:58
|
|
|
FAUXTON posted:It's like the "United Korea" line from the North Koreans (possibly the South Koreans as well? Most South Koreans would rather self immolate than be re-united with NK, regardless of which side ends up in charge.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2015 15:08
|
|
|
FAUXTON posted:That sounds pretty reasonable, actually. It's a standard-fare unionist argument when it comes to questions of control. It's like the "United Korea" line from the North Koreans (possibly the South Koreans as well? I don't know whether they're as strident in wanting a united peninsula) where they frame the division as South Korea pretty much being a secessionist territory lured away from the prosperous Juche union by the capitalist siren song or whatever. China doesn't have the batty language of the Kims but it's certainly similar on the union issue. Heck, you probably had similar views from some people during the ACW. Nah, nah, you're not quite getting it. Claiming to own currently-rebellious territory, that's pretty standard fare. This, however, is a little unusual:  Because the KMT used to be the central government of China before losing the civil war, they have yet to officially renounce their claims to owning all of China, including the bits currently run by the PRC (i.e. pretty much all of it). The PRC has no objections to this because it proves that Taiwan is in fact a province of China, and in fact they'd probably get angrier than they are now if Taiwan renounced those claims because it'd seem like a move towards formal independence as a separate nation. It's not just that the PRC claims to own Taiwan, it's that the ROC claims to own China and the PRC is completely OK with this despite being the actual people who own China.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2015 15:33
|
|
|
Tomn posted:Nah, nah, you're not quite getting it. Claiming to own currently-rebellious territory, that's pretty standard fare. Is it that the PRC agrees with the scale of the ROC claim (e.g. all of China) and disagrees with the idea of the ROC controlling all of China? I can't imagine they'd be like "sure, they control the country," but it seems a lot like they're maintaining the concept of the indivisible union and they won't refer to the dispute in terms of territorial control because it would mean there's the PRC area and the ROC area, both being China in name but existing as two Chinas. Basically "they can claim to control China but we won't let them declare independence with Taiwan because China is an indivisible union and that includes the island of Taiwan."
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2015 16:53
|
|
|
quote:Basically "they can claim to control China but we won't let them declare independence with Taiwan because China is an indivisible union and that includes the island of Taiwan." That's right. The official Chinese government perspective is that Taiwan is basically a province in rebellion, that the central authority has chosen to tolerate.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2015 17:02
|
|
|
Also note that the ROC claims maximum Qing borders. I guess because all the treaties normalizing the modern borders with Russia, Mongolia etc. were signed by the PRC?
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2015 17:05
|
|
|
Thread forgive me this is loving retarded. A girl im speaking to is trying to convince me the "battle for los angeles" was a ufo incident. Normally id lol and move on but shes hot. Did the japanese have assets to launch planes from subamrines at the time? I know they flew over seattle, and released ballons over like...oregon. The Wikipedia article talks about secret bases in mexico which has gotta be bullshit. Whats the contemporary opinion of cause? Hyped up, nerve wracked nation blows some ammo at air or commercial aircraft? Forgive me for this retarded loving question
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2015 00:30
|
|
|
The Japanese had a large number of submarines that carried planes for reconnaissance. The I-400 submersible aircraft carriers came later in the war, but single plane subs were on station off the West Coast from December 7 onwards. No idea on the cause of the battle of LA, but I would guess some combination of nerves, undertrained personnel, faulty equipment and tunnel vision/hammer syndrome (it looks like an air raid so it must be an air raid). It should be noted that gently caress ups are so common in military matters that military theory recognizes them as a major, unavoidable force that can not be fully planned for (Clausewitz calls it friction). If you ever wonder why the military did something stupid during a war, assuming a gently caress up somewhere along the line is nearly always the safest bet.
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2015 00:55
|
|
|
Waroduce posted:Thread forgive me this is loving retarded. You know she's probably talking about the movie, right?
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2015 00:57
|
|
Jamwad Hilder posted:You know she's probably talking about the movie, right? Although some people do think the historical incident was aliens. But that's a bit...niche.
|
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2015 00:59
|
|
|
Japan did release long-range balloons that were supposed to just haphazardly drop incendiaries at some random interval and the plan was to use the news to help chart the balloons
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2015 01:00
|
|
|
Wasn't there a battle of Los Angeles in the Mexican war? Maybe she was referring to when the Spanish lancers skirmished with illegal aliens from los Estados Unitos.
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2015 01:02
|
|
|
  Shes pretty hot but if she likes ancient aliens im just gunna walk on principle
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2015 01:12
|
|
Waroduce posted:
Good call imo.
|
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2015 01:18
|
|
|
Waroduce posted:
lmao
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2015 01:21
|
|
|
Blame the History Channel for that one.
|
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2015 01:35
|
|
|
wait, how hot are we talking about here
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2015 01:39
|
|
|
Waroduce posted:
hahaha I retract my earlier statement
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2015 01:40
|
|
|
Waroduce posted:A girl im speaking to is trying to convince me the "battle for los angeles" was a ufo incident. Normally id lol and move on but shes hot. There were many "Battles for Los Angeles", and one indeed was a UFO incident. It was the originator of the whole "Weather Balloon" trope. Five people were killed during the incident due to accidents caused by the chaos of the AA fire. Obviously aliens weren't actually involved, but it certainly was a UFO incident. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Los_Angeles
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2015 01:45
|
|
|
I could definitely see the news blackout surrounding it if the OPSEC folks didn't want news to get out about one of the Japanese balloons reaching LA. I mean if you needed to split the difference between acknowledging that something was getting shot at and not tipping Japan off, you would say something like "weather balloon."
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2015 01:48
|
|
|
FAUXTON posted:I could definitely see the news blackout surrounding it if the OPSEC folks didn't want news to get out about one of the Japanese balloons reaching LA. I mean if you needed to split the difference between acknowledging that something was getting shot at and not tipping Japan off, you would say something like "weather balloon." Government actually prohibited the news publishing balloon reports. Didn't want to panic people and let the Japanese know they actually hit the U.S. Granted they only killed like 1 person who kicked an unexploded bomb.
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2015 01:58
|
|
|
Raskolnikov38 posted:We should instead discuss the tactical brilliance of Ramsey burning an entire army's worth of supplies with only 20 guys. The character is so transparently favored by the show. They just love doing the "look how much this fantasy world sucks, this horrible guy keeps winning!" Like his prior greatest hit was fighting off a rescue party of picked ironborn while trapped in a basement and basically naked. Yeah loving right. The sequence where Daario killed a charging warhorse with a throwing knife was more plausible. My favorite bit in the most recent episode was when even the characters in the show were incredulous and without explanation for how his plan had even worked.
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2015 02:37
|
|
|
Taiping Tianguo Part 1 Part 2 Part 3 Part 4 Part 5 Part 6 Building the Heavenly Kingdom The Taiping are in no immediate hurry to leave Yongan. After one attack by Wulantai is beaten back, the imperial forces once again resort to a full encirclement of the city. The blockade is relatively ineffective, and food and other supplies are easily bought from sympathetic locals, smuggled in by secret societies, or even bought from corrupt imperial officers. The Taiping centralize industries within the city and have their output contributed to the sacred treasury to be shared as needed. Among these industries is the printing presses, which rapidly begin churning out propaganda and religious texts to be distributed throughout the empire. The Taiping have territory now, and begin establishing a political program. Men and women are kept separate within the city, and religious services are held every Sunday. Sunday takes place on the western Saturday, under the new Taiping calendar of 366 days. The calendar eliminates the old superstitions of lucky and unlucky days, as under God's benevolence all days are good days. Hong Xiuquan uses these months to begin writing the political and religious tracts which will form the basis of the Heavenly Kingdom's official ideology. It is also in Yongan that the Taiping leadership receive civil titles to accompany their military rank. Hong Xiuquan-天王 Tianwang, the Heavenly King Yang Xiuqing-東王  Dongwang, the Eastern KingXiao Chaogui-西王 Xiwang, the Western King Feng Yunshan- 南王 Nanwang, the Southern King Wei Changhui-北王 Beiwang, the Northern King Shi Dakai-翼王 Yiwang, the Assistant King (The Mr. Pink of kingly titles) Leaving Yongan Saishanga, former imperial councilor, takes charge of the operation and begins tightening the noose. A siege wall around the city tightens the blockade and the city begins to run short of salt and other supplies. Xiang Rong and Wulantai are joined by Jiang Zhongyuan, a scholar from Hunan who has brought with him a privately organized militia. He will be horrified by the squabbling, inactivity, and general uselessness of the Qing commanders, and return to Hunan in disappointment. Saishanga is unfortunately blind to Taiping plans. His ring of spies and defectors within the city has been smoked out by Yang Xiuqing and executed. It is not actually Yang, but the voice of the Heavenly Father who publicly condemns the traitors ( conveniently freeing Yang from the need to disclose his intelligence sources). The Taiping secretly plan another breakout. April 5, 1852, the Taiping break out to the weakly defended east and advance past the Leng Liao cliffs. Tragedy strikes, as Wulantai catches up with the Taiping rearguard before they reach the pass, and kills at least 2000, including the old, sick and wounded who had been lagging behind (those too sick to leave the city will also be massacred, as well as the local residents who had nothing to do with the Taipings). Overconfident, Wulantai continues in hot pursuit while the more cautious Xiang Rong stays back. The Taiping set up an ambush on the narrow pass, eager to take revenge. While the imperial army struggles through fog and mud up the steep trail, they find themselves assaulted from above, as the Taiping set off mines, drop stones from ledges, and pour murderous gunfire into the imperial column. As many as 4000 imperial troops are lost, and Wulantai himself falls over the cliff edge, surviving only by landing in a stream. The imperial pursuit is halted, and the Taiping proceed unmolested towards their next target, Guilin. They nearly take it, too. Luo Dagang has concocted a clever plan to march a small vanguard right into the unsuspecting city bearing captured Qing banners and uniforms. Xiang Rong is fortunate to spy this column in the distance, and realizing that he never ordered any troops to march in that direction, personally rides at top speed along a shortcut to warn Guilin. He arrives just in the nick of time to shut the gates and flip off Luo from the top of the walls. The Taiping, over 60,000 strong, settle in for a siege. Wulantai leads the imperialist vanguard, catching up with the Taiping from the south. In his distinctive mixture of bravery and stupidity, he will be killed leading a cavalry charge across a narrow, heavily defended bridge. The Taiping are unable to surround the entire city, and Xiang receives reinforcements via the north gate. He enhances his firepower by literally digging up a buried stash of Ming era cannons. After a month, it is clear that the Taiping will not be able to take the city. They have been gathering boats this whole time, and now have enough to safely move supplies and noncombatants by river, freeing up manpower for combat. They lift the siege and strike north, looking to leave their home provinces of Guangxi and Guangdong behind. Quanzhou fucks up pretty bad The Taiping's first stop is the undefended city of Xingan. They occupy it without violence, but rapidly move on. At the next city, Quanzhou, the Taiping seek to bypass the city without a fight. A Qing gunner, seeing an elaborate sedan chair in the Taiping column, takes the opportunity to strike a great blow for the dynasty, and a terrible one for Quanzhou. The lucky shot hits Feng Yunshan, mortally wounding him. The furious Taiping stop and turn to assault the city. For days on end, magistrate Cao Xiepei mounts a desperate defense with a handful of troops and civilian volunteers. He writes letters in his own blood to neighboring Qing commanders begging for help. He does not receive it, as they choose for whatever reason to sit around with their thumbs up their asses, ignoring the battle only a few miles away. When the city finally falls, the Taiping, frustrated by the fierce resistance and still outraged by Feng's wounding, massacre thousands, showing no mercy in stark contrast to their civilized occupation at Yongan and Xingan. The toll would have been higher had Cao not opened the gates just before the city's fall to allow civilians to flee. Red Cliff in miniature The Taiping continue their northward journey, looking to make their way to the provinical capital of Changsha. The first step is to cross the Xiang river, and they advance up it by both land and water. Jiang Zhongyuan, the militia leader who would attempted to help previously at Yongan, realizes that once over the river the Taiping could advance almost unopposed through his province. He organizes his tiny force of a few thousand men and prepares an ambush at strategic Suoyi ford. He blocks the river with tree trunks and bushes cut from the east side of the river, and sets his men in ambush on the western side of the river. He notifies He Chun, now in command of the ill Xiang Rong's troops, to set up another ambush on the eastern side.  The plan is a success. The Taiping vanguard is ambushed on the west ahead of the ford, and the unsuspecting boats find themselves blocked by Jiang's fortifications. The current carries the boats in the rear forward into the ones behind, and soon the entire navy is stuck in a disorganized jumble. Jiang's troops set the whole mess on fire and their guns add to the hellish confusion. A few boats make it to the eastern shore, among them Feng Yunshan. The stress is too much, and he finally succumbs to his wounds and dies on the riverbank. Jiang doesn't have the strength to prevent the Taiping land forces from fleeing east across the ford. If He Chun had shown up at this moment and attacked the disorganized survivors as they reached the eastern shore, the rebellion may have been annihilated in one battle. He never appears. The Taiping survive, but with 10,000 dead, including the irreplaceable Southern King, have suffered by far their worst disaster yet. By popular demand, weaponry of the Taiping Rebellion (I don't have great sources for most of this stuff, so if anything seems off, feel free to call it out. TFR gunspergs, I'm looking at you.) The great majority of troops on both sides are armed with spears and swords. Most spears, per western observers, were simple bamboo poles with iron spikes, though more sophisticated types certainly were used. Lengths ranged anywhere from short 8 footers to 18 ft pikes. Period artwork also shows a great many troops armed with the tiger fork or trident.  Swords were also commonly carried, usually single edged dao of varying designs. The double edged jian was less common but sometimes carried by officers.  Bows remained in use, either among militia without guns, or, much more effectively, by the Manchu and Mongol bannermen. As most of the war took place in the south, bows would see limited use. Crossbows would also see use, most famously the repeating zhuge-nu during the second opium war, which we'll get to later. (If I'm lucky, this is where JaucheCharly jumps in with everything you could ever want to know about Manchu bows.)   Most guns in use at the start of the war are of indigenous Chinese design and manufacture. Guns could remain in service for many generations, the empire spending the bare minimum on upgrading its arsenals. Chinese matchlock muskets varied in design. Many would have a short, curved stock, too small to brace against the shoulder. Sights were not common. Powder could be carried in premeasured cartridges of paper or bamboo, or simply in a flask. The tremendous windage of these guns meant that en lieu of a ramrod, they would often be simply tap loaded by ramming the butt against the ground. Compared to contemporary western muskets, let alone rifles, accuracy and power was poor. Both sides were well aware of these deficiencies, and would buy more advanced weaponry from western traders whenever possible.   One slightly unusual weapon commonly used in the rebellion is the jingal, known in Chinese as the taiqiang. These enormous guns were crew served weapons that skirted the line between musket and artillery. Typically mounted on a tripod or braced on a wall, they could also be fired over the shoulder of a particularly good friend. Firing balls ranging from a quarter pound to over half a kilogram, the weapon could be fired accurately up to 1000 yards, much greater than smaller matchlocks. Commonly emplaced on fortifications, they were also carried for mobile use by infantry and even cavalry. Each jingal would usually be maintained and transported by a five man crew.(I suspect it was a weapon of this type that sniped Feng) Artillery, like firearms, varied tremendously, with some pieces dating back centuries. For the most part guns were relatively low caliber compared to contemporary western cannon, four or six pounders. While effective for defending fortifications or use in the field, these weren't large enough to batter down a city wall. Gun carriages were usually primitive and accuracy was typically poor. Shot was generally solid, except where exploding shells were used with western artillery later in the war. Like with handheld guns, the government and the Taiping would both try to acquire better cannons from the west whenever they could. There were plenty of other, slightly weirder weapons in use. In the early phase of the rebellion, the Taiping created wooden "cannon" out of hollowed out tree trunks. These would self destruct after a few shots, but, loaded with balls instead of solid shot, worked effectively as a 19th century claymore mine. There are also references made to "stinkpots" a sort of crude incendiary grenade that would create nasty rear end fumes and leave its victims unable to breathe. The armies were thoroughly up to date with the 19th century in one respect, though. Outside of the banner cavalry, almost no one wears any significant armor. P-Mack fucked around with this message at 14:02 on Jun 10, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2015 03:53
|
|
|
P-Mack posted:Lengths ranged anywhere from short 8 footers to 18 ft pikes. Period artwork also shows a great many troops armed with the tiger fork or trident. quote:
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2015 04:16
|
|
|
HEY GAL posted:The early modern West knows inbetween weapons kind of like this as "hackbuts," "hook guns," or wall guns." Cav doesn't use them though, that's way too rad for the West. 
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2015 04:50
|
|
|
P-Mack posted:Very interesting work. Thank you for all these, I mainly know about the rebellion through Flashman and the Dragon. Is it known when the black banners were first used?
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2015 05:48
|
|
|
P-Mack posted:
I think that photo is of a punt gun, though it is a similar weapon. The men, clothing, and architecture certainly look Western and not Chinese.
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2015 06:15
|
|
|
P-Mack posted:He will be horrified by the squabbling, inactivity, and general uselessness of the Qing commanders, and return to Hunan in disappointment. I'm pretty interested in hearing about overstretched governments nearing collapse - can you recommend any books going into detail about the corruption and mismanagement of the late Qing dynasty? Entertaining read as always, by the by. Chamale posted:I think that photo is of a punt gun, though it is a similar weapon. The men, clothing, and architecture certainly look Western and not Chinese. While I can't claim perfect knowledge of the whereabouts of that photo, it's quite possible that it was taken in Shanghai - lots of Western influences there from an early point, what with the various foreign concessions. Edit: As an aside, my pingyin is a little rusty but I'm pretty sure that one way of literally translating "taiqiang" would be "too much gun" (though a more accurate translation would be more "Extremely big gun"). Tomn fucked around with this message at 06:29 on Jun 10, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2015 06:26
|
|
|
Tomn posted:"too much gun"
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2015 06:49
|
|
|
HEY GAL posted:no such thing Father Tilly begs to differ.
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2015 07:02
|
|
|
HEY GAL posted:no such thing Now I want to hear about gigantic gunz. Didn't Saddam Hussein plan for something 'eavy enough to shoot the moon at one point?
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2015 07:32
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 6, 2024 01:19 |
|
|
Tomn posted:
Assuming it's 太, "extreme" is probably the best translation, cf 太極 and poo poo.
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2015 07:35
|
|
