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Discovery-based learning is really not that good and has been linked, in Canada at least, to falling test scores and students not having even basic math skills when entering college.
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Jun 10, 2015 21:03
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Who What Now posted:And of course you're going to be at hand 24/7, constantly providing your child with varied and in depth demonstrations of anything and everything. You know, just in case they have a passing interest that exactly matches whatever you're doing at that moment they glance over to you at any given part of the day. We'll try to be available 24/7 but I think that's a bit unrealistic, we'll certainly be more available than a teacher with 30 other students to pay attention to though. I see your point about passing interests, I suppose we should throw out the idea to lock them in a box with no stimulus at all. Who What Now posted:And it's not like being acclimated to a regimented lifestyle would be useful in pretty much every job ever, or anything. Coupled with the fact that schools are literally some sort of military brainwashing academy "unschooling" is the obvious way to go. Be free, Indigo Child, and let no one tell you that your plan to get rich inventing Legos made of human poo is a bad idea. That's cool with me, they get to learn about business that way. Failure is a valuable learning tool. Literally The Worst posted:Like what do you do when that kid turns fifteen and is still reading at a kindergarten level because they don't give a gently caress about reading I guess we'll see how it goes, raising a feral child who can't use a computer because they lack the ability to read is totally going to happen. Who What Now posted:This is literally true. You know that, right? Weird, because it's literally not true. Nintendo Kid posted:The single easiest way is to have some manner of professional trained in teaching the subject involved. I hear you can get a hold of them for free these days, in the space year 2015. Really? Most learning that people do in my field is on the job, reading documentation, setting up test labs, etc. Every training class I've ever gone to has been a waste of time, practical experience is always superior to "training". Nintendo Kid posted:Don't give me this philosophical bullshit: if you unschool your kid, how will they learn advanced mathematics on their own? Do YOU know any, even? I don't know as much as I'd like but I'm still learning.
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Jun 10, 2015 21:08
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ElCondemn posted:I'm going to be a stubborn retard who refuses to give my child anything bearing a passing resemblance to an education that will equip them for anything other than breathing in the real adult world populated by human beings who can do math
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Jun 10, 2015 21:10
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ElCondemn posted:
Which they are able to do after a good decade plus of Actual School to teach them basics and even some advanced stuff. They would not be able to do that starting from nothing. ElCondemn posted:We'll try to be available 24/7 but I think that's a bit unrealistic, we'll certainly be more available than a teacher with 30 other students to pay attention to though. Where do you even live? Class sizes probably aren't even that big.
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Jun 10, 2015 21:11
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ElCondemn posted:Really? Most learning that people do in my field is on the job, reading documentation, setting up test labs, etc. Every training class I've ever gone to has been a waste of time, practical experience is always superior to "training". You learned literally everything you need for your job, starting from basic reading/writing/'rithmetic type poo poo, in the field, none of what you do is aided by you having a fundamental grasp of literally anything at all, and in fact Holy gently caress I can't even be sarcastic about this, that's how dumb it is
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Jun 10, 2015 21:11
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Political Whores posted:Discovery-based learning is really not that good and has been linked, in Canada at least, to falling test scores and students not having even basic math skills when entering college. There are a whole fuckload of people who went to public school who don't have basic math skills when entering college, that's why colleges have basic math courses. You're the stubborn retard, how's that feel? Guess it doesn't feel that bad really, your opinion is stupid.
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Jun 10, 2015 21:12
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ElCondemn posted:You're the stubborn retard, how's that feel? Guess it doesn't feel that bad really, your opinion is stupid. This isn't even a good attempt at burning me maybe you should be unschooled ElCondemn posted:There are a whole fuckload of people who went to public school who don't have basic math skills when entering college, that's why colleges have basic math courses.\ Yeah remedial classes are exactly the same as not knowing anything at all
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Jun 10, 2015 21:13
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This is what is gonna get this thread closed. Not a jrodian tirade on the evils of inflation and "cultural" time preference, but an argument with a compsci idiot about how to gently caress up his kid's future. I see the end approaching.
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Jun 10, 2015 21:15
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Nintendo Kid posted:Which they are able to do after a good decade plus of Actual School to teach them basics and even some advanced stuff. Literally everyone starts from nothing. There are people with all kinds of educational backgrounds, traditional schooling isn't the only way to learn. Nintendo Kid posted:Where do you even live? Class sizes probably aren't even that big. I grew up in Phoenix, 30 students isn't a lot there. Literally The Worst posted:You learned literally everything you need for your job, starting from basic reading/writing/'rithmetic type poo poo, in the field, none of what you do is aided by you having a fundamental grasp of literally anything at all, and in fact Well, everything I need to know about my job was learned on the job. I suppose counting was learned early on. What do you think unschooling is exactly?
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Jun 10, 2015 21:16
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ElCondemn posted:Literally everyone starts from nothing. There are people with all kinds of educational backgrounds, traditional schooling isn't the only way to learn. You know what's a good way not to learn though Not getting any kind of a structured education ElCondemn posted:Well, everything I need to know about my job was learned on the job. Okay now remove "about your job" and tell me if that sentene is still true You are seriously getting super mad about your right to deprive a child of an education and considering school a personal failure.
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Jun 10, 2015 21:17
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ElCondemn posted:What do you think unschooling is exactly? Stupid bullshit perpetuated by flaky, well-intentioned idiots at the expense of their children.
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Jun 10, 2015 21:17
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Literally The Worst posted:
Totally not empty quoting.
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Jun 10, 2015 21:20
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OK I'm looking into some research on discovery-based learning and maybe I'm wrong. For most people a lot more structure might be a good thing. I could be rebelling against the lovely early elementary schooling I got at an authoritarian Baptist institution.
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Jun 10, 2015 21:22
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This can't be as stupid as it looks, like you still have to meet state standards right and the kids self-learning is extracurricular right?
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Jun 10, 2015 21:22
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like seriously for all the "well when they're interested in something they'll learn what they need to know to do that thing" unschooling proponents (read: idiots) keep ignoring the question of "What do you do if your kid isn't interested in that thing" Like, how many kids in your high school enjoyed reading? How many of them had to be forced to read for class, and still were reading well below grade level, and were only at whatever level because they had to read? Now imagine if they didn't ahve to do that Raskolnikov38 posted:This can't be as stupid as it looks, like you still have to meet state standards right and the kids self-learning is extracurricular right? Nope platzapS posted:I could be rebelling against the lovely early elementary schooling I got at an authoritarian Baptist institution. It's this.
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Jun 10, 2015 21:23
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Literally The Worst posted:You know what's a good way not to learn though Prove it! Literally The Worst posted:Okay now remove "about your job" and tell me if that sentene is still true I'm sure someone helped me with my ABCs and 123s if that's what you're asking. I personally learned everything by reading my textbooks, but I understand people learn in different ways. Literally The Worst posted:You are seriously getting super mad about your right to deprive a child of an education and considering school a personal failure. How could you tell! I'm steaming over here! Captain_Maclaine posted:Stupid bullshit perpetuated by flaky, well-intentioned idiots at the expense of their children. So you've never looked into it, great contribution.
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Jun 10, 2015 21:23
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platzapS posted:OK I'm looking into some research on discovery-based learning and maybe I'm wrong. For most people a lot more structure is probably a good thing. I could be rebelling against the lovely early elementary schooling I got at an authoritarian Baptist institution. I'm sorry for that, and I'm sure everyone in this thread (well, jrod aside maybe) recoils in horror at A.C.E. and their ilk. But the solution isn't to burn all structured public schooling to the ground, but rather to invest in it and make it effective.
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Jun 10, 2015 21:23
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So exactly how much study did you put into this decision to unschool your children?
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Jun 10, 2015 21:24
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platzapS posted:OK I'm looking into some research on discovery-based learning and maybe I'm wrong. For most people a lot more structure might be a good thing. I could be rebelling against the lovely early elementary schooling I got at an authoritarian Baptist institution. Yyyyyyyeah, I'm gonna go ahead and say that you can't compare education you got from a literal cult to actual public school education. And I don't know why you would.
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Jun 10, 2015 21:25
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ElCondemn posted:I understand people learn in different ways. Oh man you fuckin owned me by rebutting something I never once intimated, you got me
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Jun 10, 2015 21:25
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ElCondemn posted:Literally everyone starts from nothing. There are people with all kinds of educational backgrounds, traditional schooling isn't the only way to learn. Traditional schooling is the most effective way to learn barring various mental/emotional disorders that make it unworkable. Unschooling is a completely ineffective way to learn unless you and your child are of the idle rich. Good for you. No it wasn't. You learned to read, you learned how to do math, you learned history and science and all that stuff at a school or at worst from a homeschooler sticking reasonably close to standards. How old is your kid? platzapS posted:OK I'm looking into some research on discovery-based learning and maybe I'm wrong. For most people a lot more structure might be a good thing. I could be rebelling against the lovely early elementary schooling I got at an authoritarian Baptist institution. In seriousness, "discovery based learning" tends to work great when it's something you do with your kid after school instead of something done entirely instead of school or even homeschool. It's particularly good if you try to do it with your kid over like Summer and Winter breaks.
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Jun 10, 2015 21:25
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 So the whole idea is that kids will be interested in learning how to interpret books on their own instead of just playing video games all day?
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Jun 10, 2015 21:26
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Someone post the fplus episode on unschooling. I would buy i'm on my phone on a bus.
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Jun 10, 2015 21:27
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Raskolnikov38 posted:This can't be as stupid as it looks, like you still have to meet state standards right and the kids self-learning is extracurricular right? People haven't looked into it at all, that's why they're so incredulous, it just sounds bad to say "unschooling". There are definitely standards and groups and all kinds of chances for learning from trained individuals that still conform to more traditional methods. But it's so much easier to just think you know poo poo, must have learned that in school.
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Jun 10, 2015 21:28
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Raskolnikov38 posted:
Maybe they play with legos? That's like a step away from being a certified structural engineer.
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Jun 10, 2015 21:28
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Raskolnikov38 posted:
Yup Political Whores posted:Someone post the fplus episode on unschooling. I would buy i'm on my phone on a bus. http://thefpl.us/episode/92
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Jun 10, 2015 21:28
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ElCondemn posted:People haven't looked into it at all, that's why they're so incredulous, it just sounds bad to say "unschooling". There are definitely standards and groups and all kinds of chances for learning from trained individuals that still conform to more traditional methods. But it's so much easier to just think you know poo poo, must have learned that in school. You didn't actually answer the question, what standards do you have to meet, how do you plan on meeting those standards if a fundamental part of unschooling is the lack of planning, how do you continue to feed yourself, all very important questions
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Jun 10, 2015 21:29
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ElCondemn posted:People haven't looked into it at all, that's why they're so incredulous, it just sounds bad to say "unschooling". There are definitely standards and groups and all kinds of chances for learning from trained individuals that still conform to more traditional methods. But it's so much easier to just think you know poo poo, must have learned that in school. Can you cough up the studies you read showing the positives of minimal guidance versus more traditional structured education systems?
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Jun 10, 2015 21:29
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President Kucinich posted:Maybe they play with legos? FTFY
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Jun 10, 2015 21:30
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ElCondemn posted:I personally learned everything by reading my textbooks No, you didn't. Because while reading those textbooks you would have had questions about them, questions you turned to a person trained and certified to answer such questions for a child like yourself to answer. And then when you got that answer you apparently went and blocked out that event so you could later pretend you were a solely self-made man with literally no help from anyone else ever on the internet.
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Jun 10, 2015 21:32
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President Kucinich posted:Can you cough up the studies you read showing the positives of minimal guidance versus more traditional structured education systems? Unschooling isn't minimal guidance, it's 0 guidance. It's calling neglect a teaching methodology.
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Jun 10, 2015 21:35
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President Kucinich posted:So exactly how much study did you put into this decision to unschool your children? Quite a bit, it's important for us that our kids aren't stifled like we were by school. We believe we could do a better job of it than someone who means well but is overworked and can't provide the kind of attention we plan to. Also, maybe people should read up a little before spouting their stupid bullshit. http://www.examiner.com/article/unschooling-101-how-do-you-unschool-legally-washington-state Nintendo Kid posted:Unschooling is a completely ineffective way to learn unless you and your child are of the idle rich. Well I'm not struggling... Raskolnikov38 posted:
That isn't the idea at all, the idea is that you expose your kid to stuff and let them decide what they want to spend more time doing. Letting your public school kid play video games all day would just be bad parenting, for some reason it's considered the curriculum for unschooling?
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Jun 10, 2015 21:36
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Nintendo Kid posted:Unschooling isn't minimal guidance, it's 0 guidance. I don't think ElCondemn is talking about dumping his kids in a forest and leaving. I'm hoping that, should his kid decide to discover the taste of bleach, he'll step in and provide some kind of guidance. Elcondemn, tell us about your child vaccination plans.
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Jun 10, 2015 21:37
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ElCondemn posted:\Also, maybe people should read up a little before spouting their stupid bullshit. Hard hitting journalism right here ElCondemn posted:That isn't the idea at all, the idea is that you expose your kid to stuff and let them decide what they want to spend more time doing. Heres the thing: Kids are loving idiots who don't know enough to make an informed decision about what is in their best interests, this is why we don't let them make decisions that will actually affect their lives until they're slightly less of idiots Still waiting on some studies
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Jun 10, 2015 21:38
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Who What Now posted:No, you didn't. Because while reading those textbooks you would have had questions about them, questions you turned to a person trained and certified to answer such questions for a child like yourself to answer. And then when you got that answer you apparently went and blocked out that event so you could later pretend you were a solely self-made man with literally no help from anyone else ever on the internet. I can only tell you what my experience was, if you don't want to believe it I can't convince you. Nintendo Kid posted:Unschooling isn't minimal guidance, it's 0 guidance. No it isn't, but you haven't looked into it at all.
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Jun 10, 2015 21:39
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quote:The parent has completed a parent qualifying course in home-based instruction at a post-secondary institution or a vocational-technical institute.
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Jun 10, 2015 21:40
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ElCondemn posted:I can only tell you what my experience was, if you don't want to believe it I can't convince you. Literally nobody goes through 12 years of school with no questions whatsoever. I was in honors classes from the time I was in seventh grade and still blew through whatever packets the math teacher would give us for the unit in like two periods, max, and I still knew that I was mostly teaching myself and I should double check with someone who actually knew what the gently caress was up to make sure I wasn't doing it wrong. Guess what? I did it wrong quite a bit. So get off your SELF MADE MAN NO HELP WHATSOEVER horse.
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Jun 10, 2015 21:41
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He's a comp sci graduate. Literally nothing is gonna get through. What is your opinion on bitcoin, Elcondemn?
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Jun 10, 2015 21:44
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President Kucinich posted:I don't think ElCondemn is talking about dumping his kids in a forest and leaving. I'm hoping that, should his kid decide to discover the taste of bleach, he'll step in and provide some kind of guidance. I'm not crazy I swear, my kids will be vaccinated, maybe a few extra just to be safe if you guys want. Literally The Worst posted:Hard hitting journalism right here The plan is to encourage learning, whatever form that takes. I believe learning time could be better spent having experiences rather than memorizing times tables
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Jun 10, 2015 21:47
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Memorizing times tables might actually be one of the more useful things you learn in basic arithmetic besides basic operations. It comes up constantly IRL.
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Jun 10, 2015 21:50
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