|
Literally The Worst posted:Alright so I'm about to drop a sicknasty truth bomb on you. If low minimum wage means people are poor even if they work, because they're not making much money, ok here's the tricky bit stay with me now, what if we gave them more money  (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2015 04:39
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 5, 2024 05:51 |
|
|
Literally The Worst posted:Alright so I'm about to drop a sicknasty truth bomb on you. If low minimum wage means people are poor even if they work, because they're not making much money, ok here's the tricky bit stay with me now, what if we gave them more money I'm not following. Wouldn't giving poor people more money actually give them less money.
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2015 05:16
|
|
|
Literally The Worst posted:Alright so I'm about to drop a sicknasty truth bomb on you. If low minimum wage means people are poor even if they work, because they're not making much money, ok here's the tricky bit stay with me now, what if we gave them more money But then people who get zero monies from work would be double unrich.
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2015 06:56
|
|
|
What do you guys think of Obama's plans to raise the overtime pay threshold?
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2015 07:48
|
|
|
Mr Interweb posted:What do you guys think of Obama's plans to raise the overtime pay threshold? I think it's a good idea.
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2015 14:15
|
|
|
I just think it's very telling that we're having these discussions now, since it seems to perfectly coincide with white people feeling the pinch and realizing "hey, maybe the rich whites aren't going to take me to Rand Island after all"
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2015 14:20
|
|
|
Mr Interweb posted:What do you guys think of Obama's plans to raise the overtime pay threshold? I think overtime is generally nice policy because it encourages employment of more individuals and probably encourages a decent work-life balance. It's also an opportunity for people who want it. And it's reasonably soft policy in that it lets employers do what they want if they want to pay for it and it's based on previously negotiated wages instead of hard limits.
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2015 14:27
|
|
|
Radbot posted:I just think it's very telling that we're having these discussions now, since it seems to perfectly coincide with white people feeling the pinch and realizing "hey, maybe the rich whites aren't going to take me to Rand Island after all" I am not sure why this is supposed to be profound? White people spent virtually the last half-century convincing themselves that they were all upper-middle class Americans and that the wealth gap wasn't that far away and that we can all have two cars, a house and 2.5 kids.It took basically a new Great Depression to break that.
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2015 14:43
|
|
|
BI NOW GAY LATER posted:I am not sure why this is supposed to be profound? White people spent virtually the last half-century convincing themselves that they were all upper-middle class Americans and that the wealth gap wasn't that far away and that we can all have two cars, a house and 2.5 kids.It took basically a new Great Depression to break that. "I thought we were moving into an upscale community."
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2015 21:29
|
|
|
FilthyImp posted:I don't know if folks are following the fallout from Paul Blart, Gated Community Pool Cop's idiocy in Texas, but there's some fat camo-wearing gently caress all over the news that said the inclusion of affordable housing in the area has been a thorny issue. Atwater racism aside, not sure what that has to do with the minimum wage? The housing crisis has to do with capital accumulation and speculation driving up rents far faster than average wages, not so much with minimum wage slipping backwards. White people wanting minority-free neighborhoods isn't really related either, other than that like most policy in this country, it's driven by spite. Harik fucked around with this message at 21:55 on Jun 10, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2015 21:47
|
|
|
BI NOW GAY LATER posted:I am not sure why this is supposed to be profound? White people spent virtually the last half-century convincing themselves that they were all upper-middle class Americans and that the wealth gap wasn't that far away and that we can all have two cars, a house and 2.5 kids.It took basically a new Great Depression to break that. Who said it was supposed to be profound? You basically just restated exactly what I posted, that we're suddenly very concerned about wealth inequality because it's getting a little too hard to convince all the white folks that their embarrassment is temporary.
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2015 21:48
|
|
|
Vox piece on $15 minimum wage today. I think every piece of evidence and point has already appeared in this thread; maybe Yglesias is a goon. http://www.vox.com/2015/6/11/8767021/fight-for-15-minimum-wage
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2015 02:24
|
|
|
JeffersonClay posted:There's some inherent tension between the arguments here. Low minimum wages don't empirically cause big problems but don't empirically do much to ameliorate poverty. Why assume that at higher minimum wage levels the first trend will continue but the second will change? There's no tension at all. Raising the minimum wage by 30% still helps people even if it is still below the poverty line. "A wage below the poverty line is not an effective way to raise workers above the poverty line" is just obvious and it's not the same as saying "raises don't help the poor at all".
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2015 03:09
|
|
|
What's the best way to tell people they are idiots for thinking that the cost of labor is not in fact 100% in proportion to the cost of goods, and that if you raise the minimum wage 2x, that will not increase the price of goods by 2x? So far I just call them idiots and tell them to go learn ratios, but that seems to just make the stupid people angry.
|
|
#
?
Jun 15, 2015 19:32
|
|
|
If you find a way to explain ratios to people opposed to middle school math, you would be doing this thread a huge favor.
|
|
#
?
Jun 15, 2015 19:35
|
|
|
VitalSigns posted:If you find a way to explain ratios to people opposed to middle school math, you would be doing this thread a huge favor. I go with pennies, because it makes people feel even more stupid than normal.
|
|
#
?
Jun 15, 2015 19:38
|
|
|
ratbert90 posted:What's the best way to tell people they are idiots for thinking that the cost of labor is not in fact 100% in proportion to the cost of goods, and that if you raise the minimum wage 2x, that will not increase the price of goods by 2x? Don't bother? I mean if they don't understand quite literally lemonade stand levels of business, they probably never will if they're already adults. Wait a minute, maybe that's why they think that! Since the labor at your lemonade stand is "free" and mom's paying for the cups, doubling the cost of Country Time Lemonade Mix really would double the price at the same level of profit!
|
|
#
?
Jun 15, 2015 20:37
|
|
|
Tell them to abandon the labor theory of value.
|
|
#
?
Jun 15, 2015 20:51
|
|
|
ratbert90 posted:What's the best way to tell people they are idiots for thinking that the cost of labor is not in fact 100% in proportion to the cost of goods, and that if you raise the minimum wage 2x, that will not increase the price of goods by 2x? How would you go about figuring out what the change in the price of goods would be?
|
|
#
?
Jun 15, 2015 22:38
|
|
|
wateroverfire posted:How would you go about figuring out what the change in the price of goods would be? That's a PhD level question, the more important point is that labor makes up somewhere between virtually nothing to a significant, much less than 100% chunk of a given product's cost of goods.
|
|
#
?
Jun 15, 2015 22:42
|
|
|
Radbot posted:That's a PhD level question, the more important point is that labor makes up somewhere between virtually nothing to a significant, much less than 100% chunk of a given product's cost of goods. I think for fast food labor cost is roughly 20-30% of expenses, but that includes some number of non-minimum wage employees. If you only include minimum wage employees it is probably around 10-20%.
|
|
#
?
Jun 15, 2015 23:11
|
|
|
Radbot posted:That's a PhD level question, the more important point is that labor makes up somewhere between virtually nothing to a significant, much less than 100% chunk of a given product's cost of goods. Umm, so where do you think the rest of the money goes? ratbert90 posted:What's the best way to tell people they are idiots for thinking that the cost of labor is not in fact 100% in proportion to the cost of goods, and that if you raise the minimum wage 2x, that will not increase the price of goods by 2x? Obviously minimum wage workers aren't 100% the cost of anything. But if minimum wage causes $X of additional wages that money comes from somewhere. It's either prices or profits. Hint: it's not mostly profit. asdf32 fucked around with this message at 00:05 on Jun 16, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jun 15, 2015 23:49
|
|
|
asdf32 posted:Umm, so where do you think the rest of the money goes? So if these places are going to raise prices of wages go up why aren't they raising prices now? Helpful Hint: way more than just cost goes into determining price. 
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2015 00:13
|
|
|
asdf32 posted:Umm, so where do you think the rest of the money goes? Okay but in the real world we have increased minimum wage 30% before and prices did not increase 30%. Do you think we can't tax the job creators either because all money comes from prices or profits so they'll just raise prices?
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2015 00:17
|
|
|
Wait, prices aren't perfectly elastic?
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2015 00:25
|
|
|
Zeitgueist posted:Wait, prices aren't perfectly elastic?* *Only applies to Job Creators, worker salaries are set by this idealized supply and demand curve on my napkin and perfectly encapsulate their worth to society
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2015 00:33
|
|
|
VitalSigns posted:Okay but in the real world we have increased minimum wage 30% before and prices did not increase 30%. Sometimes I think you have a developmental disability. The post you quoted said why that wouldn't happen. Taxing profits is fundamentally different than taxing a marginal cost. Who What Now posted:So if these places are going to raise prices of wages go up why aren't they raising prices now? Helpful Hint: way more than just cost goes into determining price. How many times can this question be asked and answered in one thread: they can raise prices because all their competitors are seeing the same cost increases and because a cost change on a marginal input changes the entire production equation. There are other alternatives too: automate or outsource. Forgoing profit is literally the last option any company will take and they'll do anything to avoid it. Reminder: many studies detect price increases even for minimum wage increases that are tiny compared to the economy.
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2015 00:45
|
|
|
asdf32 posted:Sometimes I think you have a developmental disability. The post you quoted said why that wouldn't happen. So what you're saying is that competitors will result in highly illegal price fixing if minimum wage goes up. And you're also assuming that when they do fix prices at this higher rate this won't then lead to a decline in demand (you remember that, don't you?) and so still result in lowered profits anyway. And your assuming that these businesses have a sorcerer on staff that can just magic them up some automation on the spot. And the reason they aren't doing any of this now is *mumblemumble*. I just want to be sure I got all your stupid assumptions so please point out any I missed.
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2015 00:53
|
|
|
asdf32 posted:How many times can this question be asked and answered in one thread: they can raise prices because all their competitors are seeing the same cost increases and because a cost change on a marginal input changes the entire production equation. There are other alternatives too: automate or outsource. Forgoing profit is literally the last option any company will take and they'll do anything to avoid it. So why do businesses oppose the minimum wage so much if it doesn't affect their profitability at all.
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2015 01:03
|
|
|
Who What Now posted:So what you're saying is that competitors will result in highly illegal price fixing if minimum wage goes up. And you're also assuming that when they do fix prices at this higher rate this won't then lead to a decline in demand (you remember that, don't you?) and so still result in lowered profits anyway. And your assuming that these businesses have a sorcerer on staff that can just magic them up some automation on the spot. And the reason they aren't doing any of this now is *mumblemumble*. I just want to be sure I got all your stupid assumptions so please point out any I missed. I do also assume that higher prices will decrease demand but, at least for past increases, the wage increases and thus price increases and demand decreases are quite small. We don't need to assume price fixing to understand why competitors with common cost structures will raise prices when their costs go up. Prices change in markets constantly in response to input changes. When oil prices go up I doubt you assume that it comes from profits. Yet half the people here try and convince themselves that's how it will work with wages. VitalSigns posted:So why do businesses oppose the minimum wage so much if it doesn't affect their profitability at all. It will affect profitability some and affect some industries more than others. But generally, over the long term, the majority of wage increases will be absorbed by price increases. Just like any other cost change.
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2015 01:39
|
|
asdf32 posted:It will affect profitability some and affect some industries more than others. But generally, over the long term, the majority of wage increases will be absorbed by price increases. Just like any other cost change. The average person today has a standard of living roughly identical to that of a peasant in 11th-century Italy, as their buying power in real terms is only marginally improved.
|
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2015 01:41
|
|
|
Energy prices do affect profitability though. When input costs increase, there will be a new price point of maximum profitability that's a tradeoff between demand and revenue and it probably won't have as good a return on investment. Businesses aren't wizards that can just magic up rock solid profit margins unconnected to economic fundamentals.
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2015 01:45
|
|
|
Effectronica posted:Factually incorrect non-sequitur. Hi Effectronica. VitalSigns posted:Energy prices do affect profitability though. When input costs increase, there will be a new price point of maximum profitability that's a tradeoff between demand and revenue and it probably won't have as good a return on investment. So rising energy prices have cut into corporate profits? Show me this. asdf32 fucked around with this message at 01:51 on Jun 16, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2015 01:45
|
|
asdf32 posted:Hi Effectronica. Can you explain how increases in the standard of living are possible when real buying power increases only marginally over the long term? Or is this axiomatic?
|
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2015 01:47
|
|
|
Effectronica posted:Can you explain how increases in the standard of living are possible when real buying power increases only marginally over the long term? Or is this axiomatic? Presumably it would work in reverse, so cost decreases due to industrialization or voting out Obama would lead to businesses giving up profitability out of the goodness of their hearts and passing the savings on to us. Which is why the standard of living of minimum wage workers has steadily improved as the real value of their wages have declined over the past 40 years and they have reaped the benefits of all those savings.
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2015 01:52
|
|
|
Walmart is suffering due to wage increases because people wont buy their cheap poo poo anymore. http://money.cnn.com/2015/05/19/investing/walmart-sales-earnings-consumer-spending/
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2015 01:54
|
|
|
I like how Wal-Mart blames their problems on their exorbitant $9/hr salary, when the competitor that's gobbling up their market share pays 25% more.
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2015 02:02
|
|
|
VitalSigns posted:I like how Wal-Mart blames their problems on their exorbitant $9/hr salary, when the competitor that's gobbling up their market share pays 25% more. That's impossible, how could that be, their prices would be 25% more per this thread, which would both not help their employees at all and they couldn't compete. 
Zeitgueist fucked around with this message at 02:33 on Jun 16, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2015 02:31
|
|
|
Zeitgueist posted:That's impossible, how could that be, their prices would be 25% more per this thread, which would both not help their employees and all they couldn't compete. walmart secretly closing stores for "issues"
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2015 02:32
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 5, 2024 05:51 |
|
|
asdf32 posted:Sometimes I think you have a developmental disability. This is pretty funny coming from the guy who still can't work out the answer to this question VitalSigns posted:Which statement gives you the information you need to estimate how much the price tag on a Spacely Sprocket might increase next year? Have you shown this problem to an eight-grade math teacher yet? It may help you with the current conversation, and ease your obvious perplexity over the studies that show a $15 minimum wage would have an insignificant effect on prices UMass Amherst posted:To estimate cost figures for a minimum wage hike up to $15.00 per hour for fast food employers, we need to answer the following three questions: 1) How many workers would get raises from the increased minimum wage? 2) How big would these raises be? and 3) What is the overall impact on the wage bill? Oh no, 14.2% of sales, if they pass all of that on to customers, that $5.99 Big Mac combo price could skyrocket by an America-crumbling 84¢! 
VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 04:48 on Jun 16, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2015 04:45
|
|