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President Kucinich posted:
And that's what's really hosed up. Just sending the kid to a normal school requires a lot less effort in general.
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Jun 11, 2015 00:38
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I'MA LET MY KID PURSUE HIS INTERESTS NO THAT DOESN'T MEAN I'M JUST GONNA LET HIM DO WHATEVER WHY DO YOU SAY THAT I'M JUST NOT GOING TO MAKE HIM LEARN ANYTHING HE DOESN'T WANT TO *shits self, is a bitchbaby*
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Jun 11, 2015 00:38
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Popular Thug Drink posted:i practice unnutrition, my child eats whatever they want because their urges are the best way for them to reconnect with their bodies and their own natural nutritive needs. on month seven now and all my kid eats is pop tarts and coca-cola but it's ok, once this phase of caloric deficiency passes i'm sure they'll start eating like vegetables and poo poo Well I am convinced. Who knows my child's body better than himself? Certainly not some egghead who went to public school and spent years studying nutrition instead of a useful trade like app development.
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Jun 11, 2015 00:41
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I'm not gonna lie, I think an MMO-based math curriculum would be great, especially with the usual social pressures of MMOs. "Maybe your dps wouldn't suck so much if you knew how to integrate your optimal haste:critical strike ratio properly, Timmy!" Or if you really want to kill their souls deader than the worst public school, make them play EVE.
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Jun 11, 2015 00:42
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Literally The Worst posted:I have not had to write a compare and contrast essay since I was a small child thus an ability to write is not relevant. I only attended part of 10th grade, I never had to write anything like that. I did learn and practice creative writing on my own time though. Popular Thug Drink posted:so when do you teach your kids the earth is only 6,000 years old? I would never, that would be a curriculum. President Kucinich posted:Fortunately for my nephew, my sister and I go to great lengths to make sure to teach him things and implore him to stick with something even it turns out to be difficult or if it's something he doesn't particularly care about at the moment and to keep up with his school work. And when he's with us and not around his dad his hygiene, health, and activity levels are better, his grades are better, and he's more outgoing and in generally a happier kid. He gets outside, and he learns new things every kid should know even if he might not feel like getting out of the house at that moment. When he didn't want to learn how to swim, i asked him why and he said he was embarrassed because all his other friends knew how to swim. Instead of saying "welp!" and throwing my hands up I instead gave him encouragement and told him to give it a try. And you know what? It loving worked. Weird, what you described was good parenting and familial support, I guess that means unschooling doesn't work? President Kucinich posted:Little kids need encouragement and leadership from their parents and family. They don't need deadbeat shitheads wrapping their sloth in rationalizations. How exactly does unschooling come into play in your nice story? Popular Thug Drink posted:"my time is too valuable for my kids to not perfect essential job skills such as sick noscopes and learning about essential culture by watching full house reruns. i respect the intelligence of my family too much to do what the man tells me to do" -someone who lost thousands of dollars playing internet lemonade stand with bitcoins 90s sitcoms would be a curriculum, can't have that. archangelwar posted:ElCondemn, your lack of statistics education may have left you ignorant of just how much of an outlier you are and that most people with your background are not at all where you are today. Please do not gamble on your child's future by betting against the odds. My lack of an education has indeed left me ignorant to certain views, I seem to do just fine without those views though.
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Jun 11, 2015 00:42
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so on a whim i googled "homeschooling outcomes vs public school" and the very first article lead me to this study http://www.researchgate.net/publica...hooled_Students what does it say? quote:In conclusion, our exploratory analyses suggest that the unstructured homeschooled children generally score below their expected grade level on the standardized test, and that even with this small sample, performance differences are relatively substantial. What is more, our exploratory analyses strongly suggest that the children who are being taught at home in a structured environment score significantly higher than the children receiving unstructured homeschooling. Furthermore, it does not appear that the differences between groups are simply due to either the family’s income or the mother’s educational attainment. is it possible that google's search algorithm would be a better father than elcondemn? yes
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Jun 11, 2015 00:44
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I had a snarky thing here but instead I'm just going to be flabbergasted at how willfully ignorant you are and seethe with hatred.
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Jun 11, 2015 00:44
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ElCondemn posted:My lack of an education has indeed left me ignorant to certain views, I seem to do just fine without those views though. Do you believe that your personal experience trumps an objective understanding of statistics?
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Jun 11, 2015 00:46
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ElCondemn posted:I only attended part of 10th grade, I never had to write anything like that. I did learn and practice creative writing on my own time though. "Yeah, I think one of my most appealing traits and key to my success is my lack of education and ignorance." - A thing said unironically.
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Jun 11, 2015 00:47
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Popular Thug Drink posted:so on a whim i googled "homeschooling outcomes vs public school" and the very first article lead me to this study drat, I knew I should've googled before repeating something I wasn't sure about. I'll have to look it up, but I think the article I read had to do with college admissions of different types of schooling.
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Jun 11, 2015 00:48
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ElCondemn posted:drat, I knew I should've googled before repeating something I wasn't sure about. I'll have to look it up, but I think the article I read had to do with college admissions of different types of schooling. what types of colleges were they bc lol if u think a kid who never actually took a math class is getting into a private university
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Jun 11, 2015 00:49
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archangelwar posted:Do you believe that your personal experience trumps an objective understanding of statistics? Captain_Maclaine posted:"Yeah, I think one of my most appealing traits and key to my success is my lack of education and ignorance." - A thing said unironically. it was a quip! jesus guys, I've been doing it all thread...
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Jun 11, 2015 00:49
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ElCondemn posted:it was a quip! jesus guys, I've been doing it all thread... See it's not funny when it's true. You're doing this "haha I'm laughing with you guys" thing like the weird autismal dude who doesn't really get why he's being laughed at and just wants to fit in poo poo now I'm depressed
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Jun 11, 2015 00:50
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ElCondemn posted:drat, I knew I should've googled before repeating something I wasn't sure about. I'll have to look it up, but I think the article I read had to do with college admissions of different types of schooling. you should research and confirm statements before you repeat them. you should also research and confirm methods before you follow them and make irreversable changes in your children's mental development me, personally, i google "baby farts weird" when my baby cuts an odd smelling fart. i dunno, maybe i'm just not brave enough to assume that letting my kid have chocolate cake for dinner and spend 12 hours straight playing minecraft is just a healthy and natural part of their maturation
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Jun 11, 2015 00:51
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Dude at least do some homeschool thing that has legit accreditation behind it so when your kid is asked to provide proof of eduction in the future he's not forking over a post it note with your signature.
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Jun 11, 2015 00:52
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also lol that you skipped like 15 years and just assumed your kid was getting into a top university
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Jun 11, 2015 00:53
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ElCondemn posted:
No. Half of his parental structure does not provide good parenting, opting instead to take a very hands off approach resulting in the kid sitting at home playing video games all day leaving the other half of his parental structure to do all the important work of raising a kid into adulthood. If both of his parents took the hands off approach you're suggesting, he wouldn't know how to swim.
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Jun 11, 2015 00:54
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El, what if your child is born with a learning disability? Do you believe that your philosophy and plan is appropriate for a developmentally disadvantaged child? As some one with ADHD, if I had been taught like this I would be in an even worse place socially and mentally than I am now. It took an intense amount of structure and attention from multiple sources for me to complete my schooling. Do you currently believe that you are qualified to teach (in a non-traditional less proven way) a developmentally disable child?
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Jun 11, 2015 00:54
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Literally The Worst posted:what types of colleges were they bc lol if u think a kid who never actually took a math class is getting into a private university They do... but in very odd situations like when they let in someone who was literally living on the street for 10 years due to dead parents or something like that. "My parents were complete morons who refused to let me go to school" doesn't get you in.
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Jun 11, 2015 00:55
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ElCondemn posted:I would never, that would be a curriculum.  "ElCondemn honey, why is our child driving the car around the neighborhood and why are you sitting here in a diaper?" "Well he said HE was the daddy now, and to contradict him would constitute a CURRICULUM!"
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Jun 11, 2015 01:00
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I remember reading an article by a mathematician who endorsed a seemingly related approach to teaching math to kids. The gist of it (I think) was that orthodox math education in American schools is antiquated, artificially delineated, and unnecessarily tedious, leading to lots of kids thinking that they hate math unnecessarily. Does anyone know the article I'm talking about?
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Jun 11, 2015 01:02
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ElCondemn, at what point could you objectively declare your educational experiment a failure? What metrics are you using for your childs advancement? Specifically. I mean because the alternative would be to just teach them whatever and then throw them into high school without actively measuring whether they are going to look like the class retard, which if you want to destroy your childs ego would be good but you dont strike me as an intentional child abuser.
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Jun 11, 2015 01:05
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ElCondemn posted:1. I decide whether things are relevant or not all the time, everyone gets to make that choice. Boring things are boring, yawn. have you ever considered that newborn children are literal tabula rasa and they don't know what the hell they want to do or learn without a guiding hand from the people around them also have you considered that you are not your eventual child, and what you find boring might not be what they find boring, and if they were raised within a traditional school they might loving like it hell, have you considered the possibility, however slight it may be, that your child might grow up with a developmental disability which would limit their educational potential in whatever way they tried to educate themselves (and if they tried that, they wouldn't be accountable to any higher power for many years other than yourselves, and you've shown yourself to be an idiot so I wouldn't particularly expect you to identify a developmental disability if it cropped up), and in that instance the best way of identifying and tackling that disability would be through the state education system you're literally running off the assumption that your child is going to instinctively desire an independent education, when really people all learn things differently and the most reliable method that people have developed to give children a rounded education is the state education system, at the end of which they can branch off into whatever the gently caress they want to do with their time, whether they continue with their studies at university or full time work or whatever yes, the state education system isn't perfect, but it's the best you have, and it's better than loving 'unschooling'
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Jun 11, 2015 01:09
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Venomous posted:have you ever considered that newborn children are literal tabula rasa and they don't know what the hell they want to do or learn without a guiding hand from the people around them These are all good points.The points about missing out on subjects due to being unaware and the existence of disabilities intersects in that exposing young kids to their different counterparts improves their views and makes them more willing to enter fields revolving around helping the disabled. It assumes that the only value information has is whether it's sufficiently entertaining to the child or not. It assumes that if a kid doesn't want to learn something it's only because they're not interested in the subject when there may be other reasons a kid doesn't want to learn something (self consciousness, not wanting to step out of a given comfort zone). President Kucinich fucked around with this message at 01:22 on Jun 11, 2015 |
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Jun 11, 2015 01:18
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Jack of Hearts posted:I remember reading an article by a mathematician who endorsed a seemingly related approach to teaching math to kids. The gist of it (I think) was that orthodox math education in American schools is antiquated, artificially delineated, and unnecessarily tedious, leading to lots of kids thinking that they hate math unnecessarily. Does anyone know the article I'm talking about? Yes, and it was a good article. "Let the kids teach themselves whatever they want to do, no curriculum" was definitely not the gist of it, or anything close to that really, but yeah, it's well-understood that a rigid and structured blackboard math education is lovely and not good for a lot of students. Math benefits a lot from hands-on teaching and alternative teaching styles. Good example, our BC calculus course used bunt cakes while teaching methods for finding the volume of an arbitrary shape (in this case, a delicious funny-shaped cake). It was awesome. Math is awesome. Most of our class did extremely well on the AP test because we were constantly engaged and involved by a teacher who tried to minimize the traditional "take notes while I lecture at you" style of education, only using that kind of thing to introduce a new concept or to perform a long derivation.
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Jun 11, 2015 01:23
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QuarkJets posted:Yes, and it was a good article. "Let the kids teach themselves whatever they want to do, no curriculum" was definitely not the gist of it, or anything close to that really, but yeah, it's well-understood that a rigid and structured blackboard math education is lovely and not good for a lot of students. Math benefits a lot from hands-on teaching and alternative teaching styles. Yeah that article was good. The gist was young kids can be taught math using board games (and music as well I think?) and such and having a math curriculum set up in a way that puts the principles being taught into use in a real world setting can work. It definitely wasn't about abolishing the classroom in toto.
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Jun 11, 2015 01:27
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ElCondemn posted:My lack of an education has indeed left me ignorant to certain views, I seem to do just fine without those views though. This was not the idiot-who-doesn't-understand-his-own-opinions I was expecting when I saw the unread post count. Jack of Hearts posted:I remember reading an article by a mathematician who endorsed a seemingly related approach to teaching math to kids. The gist of it (I think) was that orthodox math education in American schools is antiquated, artificially delineated, and unnecessarily tedious, leading to lots of kids thinking that they hate math unnecessarily. Does anyone know the article I'm talking about? I think you're talking about A Mathematician's Lament, aka Lockhart's Lament. It revolved more around favoring conceptual understanding over rote memorization, rather than being about no structure ever go do what you want.
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Jun 11, 2015 01:32
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Hey 300 posts! Jrod must be ba vvv gently caress you edit: "You keep talking about homeopathy like you know what it is, instead of just what you picked up off of some blog or whatever. Whereas I" *posts examiner article* woke wedding drone fucked around with this message at 02:25 on Jun 11, 2015 |
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Jun 11, 2015 02:18
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SedanChair posted:Hey 300 posts! Jrod must be ba Isn't this kind of "oh hey look at all of the new posts - oh" thing bannable now?
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Jun 11, 2015 02:22
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QuarkJets posted:Isn't this kind of "oh hey look at all of the new posts - oh" thing bannable now? Only in Games.
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Jun 11, 2015 02:24
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I'm really enjoying this derail. ElCondemn, the main thing I'm wondering about is why you assume that your own experience of organized school is automatically an appropriate basis for making a momentous decision like unschooling your child. There's a few discrete points here I'll expand on: (1) As people have pointed out, the fact that you are successful in spite of being a 10th grade dropout is an extreme statistical outlier, to the point of being nearly implausible. The numbers don't lie--most people with that education history are trapped as menial laborers for their entire working lives. If you're being truthful about your present circumstances, it can only be explained by exceptional luck or talent--most likely both. Consequently, basing your future parenting strategy on your own outcomes is extremely irresponsible and will most likely damage your child's achievement for life. Why do you think that this is a reasonable gamble? (2) Moving on, why do you assume that because you didn't like school, the same will be true of your child? He or she will be an entirely different person, and the overwhelming majority of people cope well in school and benefit tremendously from it. Moreover, as an educator I find that in most cases where a student is not receptive to school it has less to do with the institution, or indeed with the student in him/herself, and more to do with the student's environment outside school, such as a lack of support or worse in the home. I would suggest reconsidering if your experience of school represented a problem with the school, or with your home environment. If you and your partner are supportive parents who encourage your child's success, there's every reason to expect your child to be successful and happy at school, and they'll have access to professional educators and peers their own age, which are both things you and your partner simply can't provide in the home. (3) Further to this, when was the last time you were in an elementary school? I'm guessing it's been at least 20 years. Have you checked out schools in your area? Visited them? I'd suggest doing that. Call the district, and just tell them that you're an expectant parent and you want to volunteer for a day in an area elementary school to get and idea of what it is like. They will probably be willing to accommodate you, probably after a background check. Take a day and hang out with the teacher and the kids in a elementary classroom. Education is a living profession, you may find that school isn't what you remember. As a bare minimum you owe it to your child to do this easy, painless research before you make an incredibly important decision like pulling them out of the education system.
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Jun 11, 2015 02:43
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Literally The Worst posted:See it's not funny when it's true. You're doing this "haha I'm laughing with you guys" thing like the weird autismal dude who doesn't really get why he's being laughed at and just wants to fit in I understand you're making fun of me and think I'm stupid, it doesn't mean I can't be jovial about it. It is nice that you feel bad for being a jerk though, but I'm pretty sure you're just trying to make me feel bad. Raskolnikov38 posted:Dude at least do some homeschool thing that has legit accreditation behind it so when your kid is asked to provide proof of eduction in the future he's not forking over a post it note with your signature. It's definitely still on the table, I just prefer a system that allows our kid to choose the path they prefer. If they decide they want to go to public school or have a more structured learning environment I will provide that for them. President Kucinich posted:No. Half of his parental structure does not provide good parenting, opting instead to take a very hands off approach resulting in the kid sitting at home playing video games all day leaving the other half of his parental structure to do all the important work of raising a kid into adulthood. My approach will be to provide life experience and teach through living, that's the whole point. Being hands off is definitely not the approach I'm suggesting. Numb Three Ers posted:El, what if your child is born with a learning disability? Do you believe that your philosophy and plan is appropriate for a developmentally disadvantaged child? As some one with ADHD, if I had been taught like this I would be in an even worse place socially and mentally than I am now. It took an intense amount of structure and attention from multiple sources for me to complete my schooling. Do you currently believe that you are qualified to teach (in a non-traditional less proven way) a developmentally disable child? I will provide whatever my children need to be happy and be able to support themselves when I am gone. We're starting with the unschooling approach because we believe it is the best way to give our child the freedom to choose what they want to learn. QuarkJets posted:Good example, our BC calculus course used bunt cakes while teaching methods for finding the volume of an arbitrary shape (in this case, a delicious funny-shaped cake). It was awesome. Math is awesome. Most of our class did extremely well on the AP test because we were constantly engaged and involved by a teacher who tried to minimize the traditional "take notes while I lecture at you" style of education, only using that kind of thing to introduce a new concept or to perform a long derivation. After reading all these posts I think maybe the problem is you guys had great school experiences, or at least very different than mine. My brother and I were thrown into ESL classes because we're Hispanic, even though English was our first language. We were put into detention and suspended often and for minor reasons (like not completing an assignment). The last year I attended classes I spent most of it in in school suspension because I did not have the materials I needed to participate in class (pencil and paper). Also teaching the way you've all described definitely did not happen in my school, it was a warehouse and we were all very aware of that. I don't have faith that my child will have a better experience in public schools than I did. Spaceman Future! posted:ElCondemn, at what point could you objectively declare your educational experiment a failure? What metrics are you using for your childs advancement? Specifically. I mean because the alternative would be to just teach them whatever and then throw them into high school without actively measuring whether they are going to look like the class retard, which if you want to destroy your childs ego would be good but you dont strike me as an intentional child abuser. If they can feed and clothe themselves, balance their finances, and communicate effectively I would consider it a success. But even if we presume a nightmare scenario, they somehow never learned to read, write or do basic arithmetic, they never learned to bathe, are essentially feral and can only communicate through a series of grunts and gestures, I can't imagine they would be much worse off than than the other stupid kids in class. Venomous posted:have you ever considered that newborn children are literal tabula rasa and they don't know what the hell they want to do or learn without a guiding hand from the people around them Exactly, that's why we plan to fill their lives with experiences, allow them to sample a bit of everything and decide for themselves what they like. This to me is a better guiding hand than some school who doesn't give a poo poo if my kid gets left behind or not. Venomous posted:also have you considered that you are not your eventual child, and what you find boring might not be what they find boring, and if they were raised within a traditional school they might loving like it That's true, that's why they have the freedom to choose that life if they want, as well as decide they don't like it and switch to a different education model. Venomous posted:hell, have you considered the possibility, however slight it may be, that your child might grow up with a developmental disability which would limit their educational potential in whatever way they tried to educate themselves (and if they tried that, they wouldn't be accountable to any higher power for many years other than yourselves, and you've shown yourself to be an idiot so I wouldn't particularly expect you to identify a developmental disability if it cropped up), and in that instance the best way of identifying and tackling that disability would be through the state education system I will provide whatever my child needs, trying to scare me into normal schooling because my kid might be disabled is ridiculous. Maybe in your school they did a really good job with the developmentally challenged kids, but in mine it wasn't any better than the normal kids. Venomous posted:you're literally running off the assumption that your child is going to instinctively desire an independent education, when really people all learn things differently and the most reliable method that people have developed to give children a rounded education is the state education system, at the end of which they can branch off into whatever the gently caress they want to do with their time, whether they continue with their studies at university or full time work or whatever You're literally running off the assumption that my child is going to instinctively desire structured education. The most common method in the US is to go to public school but I'm certainly not convinced it's the best by far, nor has it been proven to be the best compared to methods used in other countries or alternative schools. I appreciate where you're coming from but I really don't see why my methodology is any worse than parents who send their kid to public school and who have no interest in teaching their kid at all. If I had said "I'm sending my kid to traditional school" you all would have apparently cheered and sang praises, but the fact that I have decided to take an active approach to teaching my kids I'm painted as a child abuser, it's frankly silly. EvanSchenck posted:I'm really enjoying this derail. ElCondemn, the main thing I'm wondering about is why you assume that your own experience of organized school is automatically an appropriate basis for making a momentous decision like unschooling your child. There's a few discrete points here I'll expand on: I really didn't intend to derail this thread like this. I don't think I'm the only one who believes our school system is very flawed, I bet at least half the posters who are decrying unschooling would agree with my position on the school system. I think the real problem is that people have decided that anti-vaxxers and other loonies who love this kind of poo poo are on board so it's automatically bad by association. I'm sure there are plenty of terrible people who take this approach, but I don't think the approach itself is terrible. EvanSchenck posted:(1) As people have pointed out, the fact that you are successful in spite of being a 10th grade dropout is an extreme statistical outlier, to the point of being nearly implausible. The numbers don't lie--most people with that education history are trapped as menial laborers for their entire working lives. If you're being truthful about your present circumstances, it can only be explained by exceptional luck or talent--most likely both. Consequently, basing your future parenting strategy on your own outcomes is extremely irresponsible and will most likely damage your child's achievement for life. Why do you think that this is a reasonable gamble? 1. I agree, I am an anomaly and I wouldn't say it's common for most people and certainly not guaranteed or even statistically probable that my own children will be able to do what I've done. But that's not why I'm taking this approach with my children, I think I've explained pretty clearly why I like this approach, the freedom and ability to choose what you want is important to me, and I want to extend that to my children. 2. Maybe they will love school, I've said it before and I'll say it again, if my kid wants to go to normal school they are free to do it. I am only giving them options, starting from a structured environment and going to an unstructured environment I believe will be more difficult, so I'm starting from unstructured and they can decide if they like structure on their own. 3. Since we got married we've been looking into the school district we live in, the schools look fine and great and all and they're within walking distance or a short bus ride. I'll definitely talk to my wife about volunteering. My experience in Arizona is going to undoubtedly be different for my children here in Washington. I'm not opposed to a structured schooling environment, as I keep saying, I just think having the option to pursue what you want is going to be much more satisfying and stimulating than sitting around either not knowing what's going on or being bored waiting for the rest of the class to catch up.
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Jun 11, 2015 03:16
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YOUR CHILD WILL NOT ARBITRARILY DECIDE TO GO TO PUBLIC SCHOOL YOU BLITHERING IDIOT Kids are goddamn idiots, which is why we don't let them make choices on their own.
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Jun 11, 2015 03:19
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Also it's not bad by association you loving tardbaby it's just bad. Jesus Christ stop with this YOU GUYS ARE JUST CLOSED-MINDED JERKS bullshit
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Jun 11, 2015 03:20
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Literally The Worst posted:YOUR CHILD WILL NOT ARBITRARILY DECIDE TO GO TO PUBLIC SCHOOL YOU BLITHERING IDIOT Nuh uh!
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Jun 11, 2015 03:25
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ElCondemn posted:Nuh uh! Its really cool that you resort to literally just posting "nuh uh" because it saves us the effort of trying to read your loving cave scrawls that you think are coherent and well thought out arguments for not properly educating a child.
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Jun 11, 2015 03:27
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Literally The Worst posted:Its really cool that you resort to literally just posting "nuh uh" because it saves us the effort of trying to read your loving cave scrawls that you think are coherent and well thought out arguments for not properly educating a child. It is cool
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Jun 11, 2015 03:27
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Jun 11, 2015 03:29
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ElCondemn posted:After reading all these posts I think maybe the problem is you guys had great school experiences, or at least very different than mine. My brother and I were thrown into ESL classes because we're Hispanic, even though English was our first language. We were put into detention and suspended often and for minor reasons (like not completing an assignment). The last year I attended classes I spent most of it in in school suspension because I did not have the materials I needed to participate in class (pencil and paper). Also teaching the way you've all described definitely did not happen in my school, it was a warehouse and we were all very aware of that. I don't have faith that my child will have a better experience in public schools than I did. If you have the money, you should be able to find a really good public or private school to send them. That's the good news. You can be pretty certain that your kids will have a better experience than you did. And even at a bad school, a good parent taking a positive role in a kid's education can make a huge difference. But even if you still wanted to home school, you could still just home school and not do a bullshit unschooling thing. QuarkJets fucked around with this message at 03:35 on Jun 11, 2015 |
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Jun 11, 2015 03:31
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Wait a second, Hispanic? Poor? In Arizona? Yeah you were the victim of some racist as poo poo educators and administrators ElCondemn. Oh wait you just admitted that your fine with loving over your kid so long as they get the "education" you would have wanted. That's really horrible.
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Jun 11, 2015 03:35
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