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Mr. Fortitude posted:It's also the chief problem with the Brotherhood of Steel, they hoard old technology but refuse to actually do anything with it or innovate or improve upon it while they slowly die out as new cultures are stepping up and beginning to overtake them technologically. That's why I really wanted to like the East Coast Brotherhood or the Mid West Chapter from Tactics, certain Elders left to their own devices suddenly realizing the potential they have to create nations or territories for themselves instead of just wasting away until the outside has the numbers and weapons to devour them like another Pre-War relic. Hell, if you even casually try present yourselves as the guardians of people willing to follow your laws, idiots like Three-Dog will gladly preach the gospel of the Good Brotherhood is better than Bad Mutants or Enclave. Of course, there will also be staunch traditionalist that would go against this idea which is also why, in theory, the Outcasts were great. Schisms in the ranks would have been a vastly interesting idea if properly explored. Because then you could see the power minded Brotherhood eventually be the ones to devour the Outcasts as they make no friends or allies in the wastes. The Outcasts would eventually undermine Lyon's authority and Order and they'd have to be dealt with while the Outcasts would desperately call to the West for reinforcements that they ultimately couldn't send thanks to the Brotherhood-New California Republic War. But seeing as this is Fallout 3, if they followed up on it the Outcasts would then be made cartoonishly evil to set a clear moral choice from the Brotherhood. The dudes in black and red would burn down villages and capture people to be slaves/meat shields to be used in ruin scouting, and even if you sided with them they'd treat you as nothing more than a very talented Wasteland Monkey. Crabtree fucked around with this message at 01:29 on Jun 11, 2015 |
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Jun 11, 2015 01:15
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GreenManGaming gave me this voucher code. It didn't specify that it was account-specific in the email, so I hope it works for you! It worked for Fallout 4 for 30% off. Sorry if it doesn't work!!! ACMDSY-C6T86W-BF83W2
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Jun 11, 2015 01:19
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Bohemian Nights posted:Anyone curious about what's known about fallout's Europe should probably just read this the sun never sets on the british empire
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Jun 11, 2015 01:25
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Erata posted:GreenManGaming gave me this voucher code. It didn't specify that it was account-specific in the email, so I hope it works for you! It worked for Fallout 4 for 30% off. Sorry if it doesn't work!!! I just tried it and it didn't work for me (US/NA) but thanks for the chance.
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Jun 11, 2015 01:42
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Groovelord Neato posted:The families on the Strip started out as uncivilized tribals and became the families within living memory (I think even within Benny's lifetime). Yeah, Benny talks about how before House came along they were the "Boot Riders" and were rough-and-tumble nomadic cowboy types. House was obsessed with rebuilding old Vegas so he sent an army of securitrons to "rehabilitate" them. The head Boot Rider wanted to stay nomadic, but Benny decided he'd rather settle down and start wearing checkered suits so he knifed the old boss and they became the Chairmen. There were three other tribes in the area as well. The Slither-Kin were treacherous motherfuckers who liked to invite travelers to sleep in their huts and then slit their throats. House says they reminded him of a certain "criminal element" in Old Vegas and rechristened them the Omertas. The same thing happened to the unnamed cannibalistic tribe that became the White Glove Society. The only tribe that didn't bend the knee was the Kings and that's why they got banished to Freeside (it's unclear who they were before they started worshiping Elvis). This all happened seven years before the start of the game. House saw NCR scouts arrive at Hoover Dam and decided it was time to re-open the Strip for business, so he went and got himself a workforce. Every single adult member of the the "Three Families" remembers when they were just a bunch of pissant tribals and most of them aren't willing to go back. Their fancy clothes, Old World personas, and shining casinos are all a facade created by House to rebuild the Vegas he remembers and make a lot of money off the NCR. It all seems artificial and anachronistic because it is and there's plenty of hints that the families aren't the Old World throwbacks they first appear to be. The fact that the White Gloves are still eating people is just the most obvious. The other Mojave cultures have a sense of history and culture as well. The Fiends are kind of one note, and the Jackals and Vipers have a lot less personality than was in their old design docs, but he Great Khans are pretty cool raider types. They're actually in their third iteration (after nearly getting wiped out in each of the first two games) and it's part of the their plotline that they don't really know what they stand for anymore. You can either inspire them by telling them about the Mongols, or you can convince them that they need to just move on and stop living in the past. Or you can shoot them. The Boomers have that one building with the goofy kid who tells you their history and talks about "automatic" instead of "atomic" weapons (not quite as bad as some of the flubbed lines in Oblivion, but still funny). Goodsprings, Novac, and Primm all have old timers who'll tell you about their history, and several of the Legion guys will tell you about the tribes they used to belong to before Caesar went a-conquering. It's no perfect, but it beats the hell out of FO3's generic raiders and scavengers. Duckbox fucked around with this message at 01:52 on Jun 11, 2015 |
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Jun 11, 2015 01:48
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Crabtree posted:That's why I really wanted to like the East Coast Brotherhood or the Mid West Chapter from Tactics, certain Elders left to their own devices suddenly realizing the potential they have to create nations or territories for themselves instead of just wasting away until the outside has the numbers and weapons to devour them like another Pre-War relic. Hell, if you even casually try present yourselves as the guardians of people willing to follow your laws, idiots like Three-Dog will gladly preach the gospel of the Good Brotherhood is better than Bad Mutants or Enclave. Of course, there will also be staunch traditionalist that would go against this idea which is also why, in theory, the Outcasts were great. Schisms in the ranks would have been a vastly interesting idea if properly explored. Because then you could see the power minded Brotherhood eventually be the ones to devour the Outcasts as they make no friends or allies in the wastes. The Outcasts would eventually undermine Lyon's authority and Order and they'd have to be dealt with while the Outcasts would desperately call to the West for reinforcements that they ultimately couldn't send thanks to the Brotherhood-New California Republic War. The setup for Operation Anchorage was more interesting than the meat of that DLC because it does explore the Outcasts a bit. But you're right and I think in the Creation Kit, the Outcasts are flagged as having Evil Karma when they should really be neutral. Hell, the Outcasts in Fallout 3 are friendlier to outsiders by mostly just telling them to gently caress off, than the Mojave Chapters who seem to love sticking bomb collars on everyone and enslaving them to do errands.
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Jun 11, 2015 02:25
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Duckbag posted:
Hmm your description almost makes this sound like.... somewhere I actually would like to explore, rather than, ya know, some pre-war fantasy paradise with hot showers. Heaven forbid you might have to explore a radioactive wasteland in a game called 'Fallout'. The horror! Crabtree posted:That's why I really wanted to like the East Coast Brotherhood or the Mid West Chapter from Tactics, certain Elders left to their own devices suddenly realizing the potential they have to create nations or territories for themselves instead of just wasting away until the outside has the numbers and weapons to devour them like another Pre-War relic. Hell, if you even casually try present yourselves as the guardians of people willing to follow your laws, idiots like Three-Dog will gladly preach the gospel of the Good Brotherhood is better than Bad Mutants or Enclave. Of course, there will also be staunch traditionalist that would go against this idea which is also why, in theory, the Outcasts were great. Schisms in the ranks would have been a vastly interesting idea if properly explored. Because then you could see the power minded Brotherhood eventually be the ones to devour the Outcasts as they make no friends or allies in the wastes. The Outcasts would eventually undermine Lyon's authority and Order and they'd have to be dealt with while the Outcasts would desperately call to the West for reinforcements that they ultimately couldn't send thanks to the Brotherhood-New California Republic War. this guy gets it. That article posted earlier is some stupid poo poo btw, like most gamer journalism, but it does shine some light on why the design changes in NV lead to a lesser, if more realistic, game. Flaky fucked around with this message at 03:51 on Jun 11, 2015 |
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Jun 11, 2015 02:53
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Duckbag posted:The fact that the White Gloves are still eating people is just the most obvious.  The White Gloves don't eat people anymore; their plotline is that some of them want to go back to doing it.
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Jun 11, 2015 03:39
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MisterBibs posted:
I thought some were already back to eating people and wanted to get the rest on board? I liked that article about fallout 3 plot holes and I'm looking forward to reading the rest; I think his points are valid but we shouldn't necesarily read a smug sperginess into his tone. I have good memories of fallout 3 but that doesn't mean I'm not interested in seeing someone (including you guys) speak critically of it's setting and plot.
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Jun 11, 2015 04:09
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Mr. Fortitude posted:The setup for Operation Anchorage was more interesting than the meat of that DLC because it does explore the Outcasts a bit. But you're right and I think in the Creation Kit, the Outcasts are flagged as having Evil Karma when they should really be neutral. Hell, the Outcasts in Fallout 3 are friendlier to outsiders by mostly just telling them to gently caress off, than the Mojave Chapters who seem to love sticking bomb collars on everyone and enslaving them to do errands. I'm also sort of okay with Brotherhood showing themselves to be dicks/Jeremy Maxsons in the waiting as I remember the non-canon Steel Scourge ending from Fallout 1. It wouldn't take much for them to go dictator and the only reason why they lost to the NCR is that they were too loving slow to build up power when could have easily created a government or place in any new society back when Shady Sands was a little know-nothing settlement in the rear end end of California. If any outpost went Native and didn't have the sentiments of Lyons, they could make Father Elijah look stable and benevolent. But talking about this only makes me want to see Van Buren come back to life even more. Flaky posted:this guy gets it. Thanks, that mod video you posted looked good from what it had. It'd be kind of cool for any Midwest game to have you eventually bump into the Outcasts looking for any remnant of the BoS left that wasn't Lyons.
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Jun 11, 2015 04:12
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Cream-of-Plenty posted:"Ludonarrative dissonance..." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4Oe0ev8bj
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Jun 11, 2015 04:15
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Mr. Fortitude posted:The setup for Operation Anchorage was more interesting than the meat of that DLC because it does explore the Outcasts a bit. But you're right and I think in the Creation Kit, the Outcasts are flagged as having Evil Karma when they should really be neutral. Hell, the Outcasts in Fallout 3 are friendlier to outsiders by mostly just telling them to gently caress off, than the Mojave Chapters who seem to love sticking bomb collars on everyone and enslaving them to do errands. That's because in all the other games the Brotherhood is a fascistic warrior society with a foundation of isolationism, racism, and violence. Somehow Bethesda looked at this first two games and went "well clearly they're the good guys here" and magically teleported them across the country for no reason.
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Jun 11, 2015 04:49
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Prokhor Zakharov posted:That's because in all the other games the Brotherhood is a fascistic warrior society with a foundation of isolationism, racism, and violence. Somehow Bethesda looked at this first two games and went "well clearly they're the good guys here" and magically teleported them across the country for no reason.
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Jun 11, 2015 05:02
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Prokhor Zakharov posted:That's because in all the other games the Brotherhood is a fascistic warrior society with a foundation of isolationism, racism, and violence. Somehow Bethesda looked at this first two games and went "well clearly they're the good guys here" and magically teleported them across the country for no reason.
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Jun 11, 2015 05:06
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And it was more we need good guys so we'll split them off to a new faction that the racist isolationist assholes want to go to war with and have to engage in medieval hostage squiring with to keep mutual destruction at bay.
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Jun 11, 2015 05:07
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achillesforever6 posted:To be fair on Bethesda's part, this was set up with Fallout Tactics Yeah while Tactics isn't exactly cannon I always got the impression that Bethesda was working off Tactic's idea of a far flung and over extended expedition of Brotherhood of Steel members so far from home they'll probably never see anyone else from the brotherhood ever again, not a series of franchises and outposts stretching unbroken across the country. Though I do recall the "outcast" BoS members making vague threats that there will be hell to pay once they tattle on the actions of the splinter group in the pentagon. Though it's kinda weird they have access to powered armor and no air planes. I mean, they took an air ship in Tactics and it fell victim to bad weather just like air ships in real life. Jack B Nimble fucked around with this message at 05:39 on Jun 11, 2015 |
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Jun 11, 2015 05:07
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It didn't help that the airships they apparently made were Zeppelins and not some recovered vertibird. I thought those things fell out of favor to modern aircraft after WW2 due to everyone learning how vulnerable those things were thanks to Hindenburg.
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Jun 11, 2015 05:18
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Crabtree posted:It didn't help that the airships they apparently made were Zeppelins and not some recovered vertibird. I thought those things fell out of favor to modern aircraft after WW2 due to everyone learning how vulnerable those things were thanks to Hindenburg. They just used helium instead of hydrogen. The main reason why Zeppelins/Blimps didn't really do all that well is that they are slow. The fastest modern airship doesn't even break 70 MPH, although some people claim that the airships in the 20's and 30's were going faster than 80 MPH? Still though, the things are slow and it was competing with trains, planes, and highways.
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Jun 11, 2015 05:26
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Wait, the Citadel is supposed to be the Pentagon? 
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Jun 11, 2015 05:28
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Did you not notice it's large, pentagonal nature? I mean the scale is way off of course, but that's video games for you.
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Jun 11, 2015 05:37
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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If Guy Fieri voices the main character, then I want Anthony Bourdain to be the narrator.
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Jun 11, 2015 05:37
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Crabtree posted:That's why I really wanted to like the East Coast Brotherhood or the Mid West Chapter from Tactics, certain Elders left to their own devices suddenly realizing the potential they have to create nations or territories for themselves instead of just wasting away until the outside has the numbers and weapons to devour them like another Pre-War relic. Hell, if you even casually try present yourselves as the guardians of people willing to follow your laws, idiots like Three-Dog will gladly preach the gospel of the Good Brotherhood is better than Bad Mutants or Enclave. Of course, there will also be staunch traditionalist that would go against this idea which is also why, in theory, the Outcasts were great. Schisms in the ranks would have been a vastly interesting idea if properly explored. Because then you could see the power minded Brotherhood eventually be the ones to devour the Outcasts as they make no friends or allies in the wastes. The Outcasts would eventually undermine Lyon's authority and Order and they'd have to be dealt with while the Outcasts would desperately call to the West for reinforcements that they ultimately couldn't send thanks to the Brotherhood-New California Republic War. To be fair, while the BoS were a lot more morally ambiguous in the other games, every Fallout lets you, some random jackass, join up if you jump through enough hoops. You even get to chat a bit with your roommate in the first game 
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Jun 11, 2015 05:39
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bango skank posted:Wait, the Citadel is supposed to be the Pentagon? Obviously they should have used those hilariously ugly pre-Pentagon military headquarters. 
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Jun 11, 2015 05:45
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I'd never taken a walk around the outer perimeter of the thing, and I guess I'd noticed the inner courtyard area had 5 sides, but I'd never put two and two(or 2.5 and 2.5 technically) together. 
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Jun 11, 2015 06:32
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achillesforever6 posted:To be fair on Bethesda's part, this was set up with Fallout Tactics I believe Bethesda said at some point that they treat Fallout Tactics as non-cannon, so in Fallout 3 and NV, Fallout Tactics never happened. So no blimps, nor any "travelers". (Still looking for specific sources as this was quite some time ago. Can't find one but it's very deeply burned into my memory). Still, in Fallout 2 you have to steal Vertibird plans for BoS. And you destroy the Enclave. And they have at least a few of them in Navarro. And BoS don't even use them.
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Jun 11, 2015 06:53
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Maybe the Enclave took all the 'birds/fuel with them when they gtfo. They can't be easy to make and that kinda was the only oil rig.bango skank posted:I'd never taken a walk around the outer perimeter of the thing, and I guess I'd noticed the inner courtyard area had 5 sides, but I'd never put two and two(or 2.5 and 2.5 technically) together. They also refer to it as the Pentagon numerous times in game. President Eden even mentions it in one of his rants. Honestly, f you weren't listening to America the Beautiful, Dixie, Yankie Doodle, and Malcolm McDowell ranting on an infinite loop until you had it all memorized, I'm not sure we were playing the same game.
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Jun 11, 2015 07:00
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Wolfsheim posted:To be fair, while the BoS were a lot more morally ambiguous in the other games, every Fallout lets you, some random jackass, join up if you jump through enough hoops. You even get to chat a bit with your roommate in the first game They do seem to have an open door to certain exceptional individuals, but by and large regular BoS don't let much new blood in or seem to really scout for that talent. It tends to just drop on their doorstep and won't stop bothering them until they give in after so many tasks are completed.
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Jun 11, 2015 07:04
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The Fallout 4 trailer does show a blimp, so I assume the Brotherhood of Steel finally managed to get one of them fixed or something. They also use vertibirds, so I guess the plans from FO2 happened in Boston as well.
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Jun 11, 2015 07:51
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Jack B Nimble posted:I thought some were already back to eating people and wanted to get the rest on board? If I'm remembering right, it's one person that wants to go back to the people-eating and has a few people in his corner; his plan was to kill a guy, serve him to the rest of his folks (who've gotten over the whole cannibal thing) and drop the figurative bomb after they've eaten it. "You've just had a meal of human, why not get back on it?" sorta deal. Karmalis posted:I believe Bethesda said at some point that they treat Fallout Tactics as non-cannon, so in Fallout 3 and NV, Fallout Tactics never happened. So no blimps, nor any "travelers". (Still looking for specific sources as this was quite some time ago. Can't find one but it's very deeply burned into my memory). It's BoS that's non-canon; Tactics officially kinda-sorta happened where the main beats historically occurred, but the details are unconfirmed so that they have wiggle room if they want to go back to the area. So there's canon backing the use of BoS blimps. (As an aside, I love that with New Vegas, Tactics, and 3 taken together, there's a through-line of "Every Brotherhood group that flees the West and their mentality becomes stronger and more respected/liked" going on.)
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Jun 11, 2015 08:43
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Cream-of-Plenty posted:Todd Howard recently described Fallout 4's intended gameplay as a "pinata of micro-experiences". Please never stop posting
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Jun 11, 2015 09:09
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MisterBibs posted:It's BoS that's non-canon; Tactics officially kinda-sorta happened where the main beats historically occurred, but the details are unconfirmed so that they have wiggle room if they want to go back to the area. So there's canon backing the use of BoS blimps. This makes sense in a way. Many thanks for clarifying.
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Jun 11, 2015 09:18
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Reading that article earlier, I don't see the problem with the kids in the vaults still echoing 50s culture or how much of what's out there still having that style. They are completely locked in a space that's (with one glaring exception) never had interaction with the outside world in any meaningful way; their entire cultural text is holotapes from that time period and they don't appear to have the facilities to create new ones. Their education system has literally not evolved in the 200 years since it's started, so there's no real progression there. Even outside the vaults, culture and media only exist in what remains from the old world since the environment is so harsh that most peoples' time is occupied finding sustenance or maintaining what little order they can create. In that situation, who has time to create art? Without the ability to create and circulate new media or cultural texts, people will default to what is already there; oral record is as much as they have. The most advanced they have is radio, and even then the song selections are whatever is left. Basically the world of Fallout got blasted back to an almost medieval level of communication and strife, but somehow worse because you have even more chaos in the form of a radiation that sticks to water and doesn't seem to have a half-life. Neeksy fucked around with this message at 09:49 on Jun 11, 2015 |
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Jun 11, 2015 09:47
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Neeksy posted:Reading that article earlier, I don't see the problem with the kids in the vaults still echoing 50s culture or how much of what's out there still having that style. They are completely locked in a space that's (with one glaring exception) never had interaction with the outside world in any meaningful way; their entire cultural text is holotapes from that time period and they don't appear to have the facilities to create new ones. Their education system has literally not evolved in the 200 years since it's started, so there's no real progression there. Even outside the vaults, culture and media only exist in what remains from the old world since the environment is so harsh that most peoples' time is occupied finding sustenance or maintaining what little order they can create. In that situation, who has time to create art? Without the ability to create and circulate new media or cultural texts, people will default to what is already there; oral record is as much as they have. The most advanced they have is radio, and even then the song selections are whatever is left. The thing is that every vault that wasn't an outright social experiment had only average people with, as you said, constantly circulated media, incredibly small population, and a soulless environment with no natural scenery, aesthetics, or ecology. There also doesn't even to seem to be a method to facilitate scientific research in most of them, just regurgitating medicine and experiments in texts. So naturally every vault is in a constant state of stagnation and only can produce slight variations on the culture that is and will always be present, that being whatever was common during the time the vaults sealed. That's an analytical, sociological reason. The practical (and most likely actual) reason is because video games.
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Jun 11, 2015 09:57
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Mr. Fortitude posted:It's also the chief problem with the Brotherhood of Steel, they hoard old technology but refuse to actually do anything with it or innovate or improve upon it while they slowly die out as new cultures are stepping up and beginning to overtake them technologically.
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Jun 11, 2015 10:08
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Theta Zero posted:The thing is that every vault that wasn't an outright social experiment had only average people with, as you said, constantly circulated media, incredibly small population, and a soulless environment with no natural scenery, aesthetics, or ecology. There also doesn't even to seem to be a method to facilitate scientific research in most of them, just regurgitating medicine and experiments in texts. So naturally every vault is in a constant state of stagnation and only can produce slight variations on the culture that is and will always be present, that being whatever was common during the time the vaults sealed. Well yes, the real reason is because they want to keep the nuclear optimism aesthetic for thematic purposes for a video game, but the article posted earlier spends a lot of time being angry at Fallout 3 for having that kind of culture, when it's actually pretty easy to explain in terms of either sociological reasoning or for aesthetic/theme.
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Jun 11, 2015 10:19
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Karmalis posted:Still, in Fallout 2 you have to steal Vertibird plans for BoS. And you destroy the Enclave. And they have at least a few of them in Navarro. And BoS don't even use them. Doesn't Horrigan kill the guy you give the plans to? It's possible the BoS never even got to see them.
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Jun 11, 2015 10:23
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Neeksy posted:Well yes, the real reason is because they want to keep the nuclear optimism aesthetic for thematic purposes for a video game, but the article posted earlier spends a lot of time being angry at Fallout 3 for having that kind of culture, when it's actually pretty easy to explain in terms of either sociological reasoning or for aesthetic/theme. Oh sorry, I missed that. Could you give me a link?
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Jun 11, 2015 10:29
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Think I'll skip this one. 3 was fun and addictive in the beginning, but just like with Oblivion and Skyrim, it took me a while to get bored and realize how shallow and stupid the game and its writing actually are. New Vegas was pretty good, but I guess 4 will be designed and written by Bethesda's own people again? Steel Be With You. 
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Jun 11, 2015 10:36
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Yeah same here man I'm gonna skip this game based on the first trailer alone, cya
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Jun 11, 2015 10:52
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Tactics is sort of canon in a broad strokes way according to Bethesda. It's basically canon except when the game directly contradicts what got established in Fallout 1 and 2, in which case something similar that didn't break canon actually happened instead. So the Brotherhood did find airships to cross to the east coast, one of them did crash into the Midwest and they rebuilt by recruiting outsiders but in doing so went full fascist that sent those not fit for Brotherhood recruiting into forced labor camps but Vault 0 probably isn't canon, though a robotic army trying to decimate the Midwest did happen. I think Bethesda considered it semi-canon simply because despite the inconsistencies it was still a pretty good game and people warmed to it once they got over the shock of it not being Fallout 3. The Brotherhood of Steel console game on the other hand doesn't really contradict anything from the previous games per se but the plot is so stupid (you even get to kill the Vault Dweller after he left Arroyo) and the critical and fan reaction so negative, it basically never happened.
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Jun 11, 2015 11:21
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