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spectralent posted:I also fully agree with your courts thing; the fact they were support groups was never a negative to me, since I always felt the fact they had supernatural benefits was almost immaterial compared with the value of having friends who have a similar experience and perspective was. They haven't stopped being support groups though, they literally give you a bonus against traumatic stuff/past abusers and approaches as a Huntsman's means of attack are about undermining that support network. Also it's not like the Seasonal Courts are going anywhere, they're getting a write-up too.
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Jun 13, 2015 20:54
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The revision pass for Beast's intro is done already.
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Jun 13, 2015 21:43
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Well, I'm not sure exactly how they're going to sell the fear->education connection and there's still a hint in there of Heroes being bad because they're egotistical rather than because of anything they actually do, but on the whole it looks a lot better. I'm especially glad that they've actually put their foot down and given a clear answer as to what you're actually playing as. My ultimate, base-level criticism remains, though it's more a matter of personal taste than, like, moral objection - I don't really like 'meta' monsters. I don't want a dragon that feeds on fear, I want a dragon that feeds on livestock.
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Jun 13, 2015 22:07
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Ferrinus posted:Well, I'm not sure exactly how they're going to sell the fear->education connection and there's still a hint in there of Heroes being bad because they're egotistical rather than because of anything they actually do, but on the whole it looks a lot better. I'm especially glad that they've actually put their foot down and given a clear answer as to what you're actually playing as. The Ordo Dracul welcomes you
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Jun 13, 2015 22:08
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Yeah, this is a lot better than I was expecting. It's not perfect but it is no longer shameful.
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Jun 13, 2015 22:09
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The new version of Beast just sounds kind of aimless and redundant, which is a significant step up.
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Jun 13, 2015 22:10
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It sounds a lot better, the question is what the gently caress do Beasts do outside meet their basic needs? Heroes need to be beefed up and made more proactive and there needs to be agendas for players to pursue, otherwise this just seems like Geist 2.0 instead of Changing Breeds 2.0.
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Jun 13, 2015 22:12
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I didn't want to tilt the discussion one way or another by saying something with the post, but yeah, if the rest of Beast ends up looking like that revision, my response has done a dramatic turnaround from violent distaste to "I can probably do something cool with this if I spend some time with it," which is considerably more of an improvement than I was expecting.NutritiousSnack posted:It sounds a lot better, the question is what the gently caress do Beasts do outside meet their basic needs? Heroes need to be beefed up and made more proactive and there needs to be agendas for players to pursue, otherwise this just seems like Geist 2.0 instead of Changing Breeds 2.0. From the looks of things, the 'good guy' Beasts now act as the catalyst to make people improve and become better people (which is really close to what I wanted to do to improve it), while the bad guys are the slavering jackasses who do nothing but eat. Heroes are now way more like Batman (  ), in that they're addicted to being the heroic figure who saves the day but does nothing to address the actual system that creates the problems they solve, effectively perpetuating the status quo of suffering in order to keep their niche, which is infinitely more workable.
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Jun 13, 2015 22:18
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Twibbit posted:The Ordo Dracul welcomes you "Welcomes"? Pffft. This is how my Frozen Master of Untamed Hunger ended up: 
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Jun 13, 2015 22:18
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Daeren posted:I didn't want to tilt the discussion one way or another by saying something with the post, but yeah, if the rest of Beast ends up looking like that revision, my response has done a dramatic turnaround from violent distaste to "I can probably do something cool with this if I spend some time with it," which is considerably more of an improvement than I was expecting. Yeah, I was suspecting a weak half hearted change or a double down mandating all heroes wear fedora's, have small penises, and work at gamestop. This is a major, MAJOR step up in fixing the fluff. I'm just questioning if Heroes will actually manage to be dangerous to Beasts.
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Jun 13, 2015 22:32
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This isn't a bad start. I'm not 100% happy about it but I am much happier than before. At the very least, Beasts now actually have a reason to exist and some kind of justification for why they are and what they do; they've got a cosmic niche, and are no longer purely selfish bastards being bastards in bastardy ways because they are bastards. That is a good thing.
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Jun 13, 2015 22:36
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NutritiousSnack posted:It sounds a lot better, the question is what the gently caress do Beasts do outside meet their basic needs? Heroes need to be beefed up and made more proactive and there needs to be agendas for players to pursue, otherwise this just seems like Geist 2.0 instead of Changing Breeds 2.0. Even if all we get is Geist 2.0, it's a lot better than where we were 24 hours ago.
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Jun 13, 2015 22:43
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Mors Rattus posted:Even if all we get is Geist 2.0, it's a lot better than where we were 24 hours ago. Hence why I said that in comparison to Changing Breeds.
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Jun 13, 2015 22:49
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I like that beasts are no longer born, they're a choice, and that most beasts shouldn't be reducing their targets to sheer vomiting pants making GBS threads terror just for the lulz. Also beasts understand that humanity is justified in their hatred of them and don't begrudge heroes anymore, which is fantastic. There is still a lot of the book to go, though. And I'm not ready to forgive and forget all the abuse metaphors and victim blaming quite yet. But this intro sounds like the intro to a game I might want to play.
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Jun 13, 2015 22:50
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Daeren posted:I didn't want to tilt the discussion one way or another by saying something with the post, but yeah, if the rest of Beast ends up looking like that revision, my response has done a dramatic turnaround from violent distaste to "I can probably do something cool with this if I spend some time with it," which is considerably more of an improvement than I was expecting. Yeah these are actually pretty interesting. If the rest of the revisions keep it up I can see myself being down for this.
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Jun 13, 2015 23:04
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Ferrinus posted:"Welcomes"? Pffft. This is how my Frozen Master of Untamed Hunger ended up: What does 'Frozen' mean?
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Jun 13, 2015 23:07
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Attorney at Funk posted:What does 'Frozen' mean? Well broadly it means Dracula didn't approve but my character had enough clout to just claim it means "I have abandoned the human condition" to anyone who asked later on.
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Jun 13, 2015 23:16
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I love that the Ordo has titles that mean "I'm showing off for the mundanes" and "the guy who gave me this title wants you to kill me."
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Jun 14, 2015 00:02
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Can I get a source on that? I do love me some Ordo Dracul.
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Jun 14, 2015 01:48
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Kurieg posted:I like that beasts are no longer born, they're a choice, and that most beasts shouldn't be reducing their targets to sheer vomiting pants making GBS threads terror just for the lulz. quote:The monsters offered you a chance to become one of them, to guide humanity to hard-fought wisdom. You accepted, and that night, you were Devoured. When you awoke the next morning, you were no longer human...but oh, the lessons you have to teach. Okay, it's a choice now (in a way that sorta steals from Demon), and the theme is now "You Deserve This, But I'll Beat You With PVC So It Doesn't Cause Lasting Damage" or perhaps "Non-Consensual BDSM". It's an improvement, but not by much.
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Jun 14, 2015 02:28
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Wales Grey posted:Okay, it's a choice now (in a way that sorta steals from Demon), and the theme is now "You Deserve This, But I'll Beat You With PVC So It Doesn't Cause Lasting Damage" or perhaps "Non-Consensual BDSM". It's an improvement, but not by much. The line I'm focusing on is this one quote:Beasts don’t apologize for their harsh methods — wisdom doesn’t come without loss. At the quote:Beasts sate their Hungers to feed the Horror, but also to teach a lesson from the Primordial It seems to be that the horror(Thank god it's not called the soul anymore) is fine with almost anything as long as you dress it up the right way, and beasts recognize that they're monsters. "I was born this way so it's not my fault that I need to torture you half to death, so suck it" is a terrible game idea and I'm glad he seems to be going the other way with it.
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Jun 14, 2015 02:38
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I don't disagree with you, it's definitely a move for the better, but there's still the underlying current of "The People You Torture/Torment Need And Deserve To Be Taught A Lesson". And the crossover elements are still forced-as-all-hell.
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Jun 14, 2015 02:44
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This all looks really boring, which is a huge step up from being actively repulsive. Kudos to the writers, I think this is about the upside of the core Beast idea.
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Jun 14, 2015 02:44
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Wales Grey posted:I don't disagree with you, it's definitely a move for the better, but there's still the underlying current of "The People You Torture/Torment Need And Deserve To Be Taught A Lesson". Yeah, I'm in the same boat. The Heroes section I feel, will be the place to make or break Beast. Would Melanie look like a hero, or a Hero™? What about Fedora, is he still supposed to be an actual threat or the pathetic tit he actually is? A revised intro does not a game line make.
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Jun 14, 2015 04:05
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So now they're just straight up a less interesting version of the Scarecrow Ministry.
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Jun 14, 2015 04:08
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Changeling question: Is there a reason everyone takes on cutesy fairy-tale names? Wouldn't keeping your human name be better for your sanity/clarity?
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Jun 14, 2015 04:16
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Cryophage posted:Changeling question: Is there a reason everyone takes on cutesy fairy-tale names? Well, you legitimately are a fairy-tale thing and it probably isn't healthy to pretend that that isn't the case, or to pretend that it isn't kind of awesome, because it's not going away. (My favorite Changeling NPC I never got to use was a guy who came back as a rabbit guy, and was so infuriated at being turned into an animal that he spent a lot of effort on not being a rabbit by lifting weights and doing things with his hair to cover up his bunny ears and generally having a needlessly aggressive attitude. He mostly looked like a very weird rabbit.)
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Jun 14, 2015 04:23
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Ferrinus posted:Except that's true for every single PC because Huntsmen are a game-wide, marquee threat rather than a particular thing happening due to one character's circumstances...? By design, every Changeling won. Having a Seeming requires it.
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Jun 14, 2015 04:33
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Rand Brittain posted:Well, you legitimately are a fairy-tale thing and it probably isn't healthy to pretend that that isn't the case, or to pretend that it isn't kind of awesome, because it's not going away. At the same time though, Vampires don't go around asking people to call them Vlad Fangman or Sanguine Trenchcoat.
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Jun 14, 2015 04:35
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Cryophage posted:At the same time though, Vampires don't go around asking people to call them Vlad Fangman or Sanguine Trenchcoat. Well, no, but they do join clubs named the Ordo Dracul and the Lancea Sanctum, so it's not like they don't obey the naming conventions of their own genre.
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Jun 14, 2015 04:36
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A lot of Lost also forget their names, and choose the "Fae" name as part of their new identity or in hope they can get their old one back.
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Jun 14, 2015 04:37
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Cryophage posted:At the same time though, Vampires don't go around asking people to call them Vlad Fangman or Sanguine Trenchcoat. Vampires aren't a symbolic representation of traumatic experiences. ErichZahn posted:By design, every Changeling won. Having a Seeming requires it. Hunter's example Changeling, between her corebook appearance and her HRG appearance, shows that even inflicting a seemingly mortal wound on your Keeper doesn't mean you've inconvenienced them meaningfully, or necessarily at all.
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Jun 14, 2015 04:40
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ErichZahn posted:By design, every Changeling won. Having a Seeming requires it. By design, every Changeling so powerfully wounded their Keeper that their Keeper can no longer physically follow them into the mortal world? Really? Really? Really? Really-really? Really. Really, that's interesting. Really? I didn't know that. Rea-
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Jun 14, 2015 04:52
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ErichZahn posted:By design, every Changeling won. Having a Seeming requires it. You'd think, but multiple times in the text it tells you noooooope.
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Jun 14, 2015 05:09
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tatankatonk posted:The Huntsmen triumph, and you are no longer employed at Jamba Juice Huntsmen beats you in Halo 5 and tea bags your dead character.
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Jun 14, 2015 05:18
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Cryophage posted:Changeling question: Is there a reason everyone takes on cutesy fairy-tale names? For real. I really like Changeling, but I prefer to run it with a slightly more adversarial relationship to fairy things than the writers seem to suggest. Names and titles specifically are something I like to use as a signal for how high Clarity someone has. Like if you meet a guy who claims to be the Flowering Knight of Endless Spring and has a really powerful Mantle of rose petals and birdsong trailing behind him, even if he says he wants to help, that should be a warning sign that he's maybe not in touch with reality and you should be really careful not to say "I promise" within earshot. Or like the character who gets really buff because he doesn't want to be a fluffy rabbit- I'm extremely down with that and I've sometimes used NPCs with similar attitudes. Your Keeper thought you were a soft li'l bunny to chase around the garden, and they were loving wrong- you've learned the Contracts of Stone to prove it. Or by the same token, I had a Spring NPC once who had been turned into this traditional big strong ugly Ogre brute, but went out of their way to look defiantly femme and stylish because the story of them being a bridge troll is now over for good, got a problem with that? Anyway- it's not the only type of character I use by any means, but I do really like the idea that the fairy-tale culture of the Courts isn't 100% positive for your clarity and should probably be kept at arm's length. I've always wanted to run a game where I raise the paranoid possibility that the PCs are the only changelings in town who are actually human, and the whole Court hierarchy is some elaborate glamour like the Goblin Market- or at least that the changelings most wrapped up in oaths and titles and Hedgespun silk have secretly given up some fundamental part of their human identity.
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Jun 14, 2015 05:25
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Rand Brittain posted:Well, no, but they do join clubs named the Ordo Dracul and the Lancea Sanctum, so it's not like they don't obey the naming conventions of their own genre. Effectronica posted:Vampires aren't a symbolic representation of traumatic experiences. Sorry, should have been clearer with my original query: I get why the the game designers are pushing the naming convention, but I'm not clear on what the in-universe justification is. Kavak posted:A lot of Lost also forget their names, and choose the "Fae" name as part of their new identity or in hope they can get their old one back. Is the whole narrative of hunting down and dealing with one's fetch rare outside of PCs? So is it then that these lucky changelings find themselves pressured to adopt a pseudonym to fit in with their new comrades? Kellsterik posted:For real. I really like Changeling, but I prefer to run it with a slightly more adversarial relationship to fairy things than the writers seem to suggest. Names and titles specifically are something I like to use as a signal for how high Clarity someone has. Like if you meet a guy who claims to be the Flowering Knight of Endless Spring and has a really powerful Mantle of rose petals and birdsong trailing behind him, even if he says he wants to help, that should be a warning sign that he's maybe not in touch with reality and you should be really careful not to say "I promise" within earshot. I really like this.
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Jun 14, 2015 05:34
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I think that having a separate fairy identity also probably helps changelings keep things compartmentalized.
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Jun 14, 2015 05:37
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Cryophage posted:At the same time though, Vampires don't go around asking people to call them Vlad Fangman or Sanguine Trenchcoat. Weren't folks just discussing the Ordo Dracul titles? I think vampires tend to keep their mortal names, at least at first, because they're still involved in the mortal world, and might still have connections to that world that don't really facilitate having all your business cards changed to VLADIMIR DARKFANG VON BLOODSTEIN or whatever. I feel like the NPCs with goofy names tend to be the ones who involve themselves almost solely with Kin. Changelings, on the other hand, have no connection to their former lives at all, so it's less of a big deal to decide you like the sound of the name Willow Appleblossom or whatever.
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Jun 14, 2015 05:57
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I think it's one of those things that is supposed to come part in parcel with who your character is. You come out of the hedge as a changed person, your old name is probably dangerous or inconvenient to use for a number of different reasons, and you gotta tell people something. Maybe you just say you're Bob Smith, but at some point you have to own what's happened or you'll go mad(der). Maybe you give yourself a fairy name to own what's happened to you, maybe it's based out of spite, or maybe you're just embracing the insanity of it all. There's probably not one comprehensive answer. Edit: I feel like there's a better term than 'fairy name' that I'm forgetting. Cabbit fucked around with this message at 06:01 on Jun 14, 2015 |
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Jun 14, 2015 05:59
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