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QuantaStarFire posted:It's not even that I want to discuss the issue. I was just "This aspect of the game disappoints me" but I guess that's enough to get yourself thrown on the Tumblrbus because you didn't immediately board the hype train. I think your 2nd paragraph there is a totally valid argument to have. I'm skeptical that it'll be a good story or that their choices to solidify protagonist backstory will be justified by good execution, but since the game is not out yet I can't say "this idea is 100% bad".
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Jun 15, 2015 11:52
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Neeksy posted:I think your 2nd paragraph there is a totally valid argument to have. I'm skeptical that it'll be a good story or that their choices to solidify protagonist backstory will be justified by good execution, but since the game is not out yet I can't say "this idea is 100% bad". But you can understand how the track record suggests that they don't have the narrative chops to justify taking away that openness of self-definition, and how those inclined to be skeptical are.
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Jun 15, 2015 11:53
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Just watched the E3 reveal gameplay trailer and I think Bethesda is actually learning how to improve their games this generation. Game looks great in action. I guess time will tell but I'm very excited.
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Jun 15, 2015 11:54
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crawlkill posted:But you can understand how the track record suggests that they don't have the narrative chops to justify taking away that openness of self-definition, and how those inclined to be skeptical are. The difference is that the arguments, as far as I understand them and as they have been presented so far, are people not merely saying "I'm skeptical" so much as they claim the principle of having a non-cypher protagonist with established characteristics is a negative thing for a game to have on pure principle or are making it seem like this choice is a much more nefarious erasure/exclusion of different sexualities.
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Jun 15, 2015 11:56
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that feel when dc mitchell says he "takes pride in his needlework" but he forgot to put your phantom wings back on #justcazadorkinthings
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Jun 15, 2015 11:59
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QuantaStarFire posted:It's not even that I want to discuss the issue. I was just "This aspect of the game disappoints me" but I guess that's enough to get yourself thrown on the Tumblrbus because you didn't immediately board the hype train. We don't ACTUALLY know anything yet is the thing. If past is prologue, then the nature of the Vault the main character was given free access to is the #1 thing that's going to determine outcomes. For all we know 111 was dedicated to creating ghoul-human immortal hybrids, and the process only worked on males/they didn't want them breeding so women and children were ground up into nutrient paste. Give the evil corp that bankrolled it a name and then toss me out into the wastes to either a) congratulate them on a job well done, b) convert them to hot plasma, or c) ignore them Real talk though, I think it's going to be ignored entirely outside of the main storyline. I'm also disappointed that the main character is going to be voiced but I'm also not surprised at this point. At the very least I hope there's a bond-style system of event quips you can trigger and set up, like "GET YOUR HEAD IN THE GAME" for baseball bat head explosions Fake edit - also the whole everything breaking down into base building materials is fantastic, as I've been on a crafting game binge lately that will likely need new material by November
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Jun 15, 2015 12:00
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Neeksy posted:The difference is that the arguments, as far as I understand them and as they have been presented so far, are people not merely saying "I'm skeptical" so much as they claim the principle of having a non-cypher protagonist with established characteristics is a negative thing for a game to have on pure principle or are making it seem like this choice is a much more nefarious erasure/exclusion of different sexualities. then let me clarify that I think any structure -can- be good. it's just a question of whether it's done well, which history suggests it won't be, and, if it isn't done well, what the cost of doing it this way rather than the Fallout traditional cipher PC way is. obviously there's no "right" way to tell a story, but when a change is made to a series that pushes the series in a direction -away- from the studio's strengths, it's worrisome, and it's natural to think about the consequences. it's especially grim if we consider that Bethesda might impose stylistic requirements on a potential New Vegas 2, ie, 'must have voiced protagonist,' 'must be about a specific person.'
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Jun 15, 2015 12:02
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I hated the part in Fallout 1 where you were a Vault Dweller sent out to get water chips as well, completely ruined my roleplay.
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Jun 15, 2015 12:04
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Neeksy posted:a non-cypher protagonist with established characteristics is a negative thing for a game to have on pure principle This is a stupid thing to think wrt "games" but gets a lot less stupid in the context of a genre and series defined by your ability to create a character and make choices; there's a reason TES does "you're a prisoner" as the setup for every game in the series aside from tradition or Bethesda being uncreative, it's also an amazingly good RPG character design hook by giving you a little bit of something to hang a personality/backstory on that is in no way definitive or railroading
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Jun 15, 2015 12:06
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We can pretty much assume going forward that voiced protagonists are going to be standard. Bethesda was pretty much the last holdout that I can think of off the top of my head It sucks, and there's pretty much no way to spin it in a positive light, but it's also unstoppable in the special way that things that can be pitched as, "it'll sell better on consoles and quadruple our potential market share" are
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Jun 15, 2015 12:06
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I don't know that any choice they make could quadruple their market share, weren't Fallout 3 and Skyrim megahits regardless of their lack of a voiced protagonist?
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Jun 15, 2015 12:07
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Housing don't interest me, but I would like DNA crafting and vehicle crafting. Then attack a bandit settlement with my army of blood sucking mutants and my blade gyro-copter bike.crawlkill posted:it's especially grim if we consider that Bethesda might impose stylistic requirements on a potential New Vegas 2, ie, 'must have voiced protagonist,' 'must be about a specific person.' its perhaps possible that in a future obsidian game we will play a dude/duddete with amnesia. Tei fucked around with this message at 12:12 on Jun 15, 2015 |
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Jun 15, 2015 12:08
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Epic High Five posted:We can pretty much assume going forward that voiced protagonists are going to be standard. Bethesda was pretty much the last holdout that I can think of off the top of my head well, there's still InXile. although admittedly your PC(s) in Wasteland 2 basically had no personality at all. I got relatively high hopes for Torment 2 in terms of lively, charming dialogue and a variety of moods for the protagonist (there must be a better word than moods). not sure how long Obsidian plans to keep up the Pillars of Eternity-engine stuff. Zombies' Downfall posted:I don't know that any choice they make could quadruple their market share, weren't Fallout 3 and Skyrim megahits regardless of their lack of a voiced protagonist? I wonder if it's an attempt to draw in more people "in the living room?" more spoken dialogue = more people noticing one family member playing or something? I bet you there's some really high-concept and probably-insane marketing scheme behind it.
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Jun 15, 2015 12:09
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crawlkill posted:then let me clarify that I think any structure -can- be good. it's just a question of whether it's done well, which history suggests it won't be, and, if it isn't done well, what the cost of doing it this way rather than the Fallout traditional cipher PC way is. obviously there's no "right" way to tell a story, but when a change is made to a series that pushes the series in a direction -away- from the studio's strengths, it's worrisome, and it's natural to think about the consequences. See this seems like a lot better way for you to phrase and position your arguments, because with the current info we have you can at least state this as a concern than as actual borne-out fact. Also people keep forgetting you can play as a female protag in this game. Admittedly they idiotically decided to show no actual footage of her in action in the montage when they had numerous opportunities to do so.
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Jun 15, 2015 12:09
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crawlkill posted:then let me clarify that I think any structure -can- be good. it's just a question of whether it's done well, which history suggests it won't be, and, if it isn't done well, what the cost of doing it this way rather than the Fallout traditional cipher PC way is. obviously there's no "right" way to tell a story, but when a change is made to a series that pushes the series in a direction -away- from the studio's strengths, it's worrisome, and it's natural to think about the consequences. you know i think i finally understand why nobody likes NMA posters
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Jun 15, 2015 12:11
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Neeksy posted:See this seems like a lot better way for you to phrase and position your arguments, because with the current info we have you can at least state this as a concern than as actual borne-out fact. I was distracted into agreeing with queer issues! I really came here with the sweet, pure motive of frothing about how much I hate Bethesda and what they've done to everyone's (EVERYONE'S RIGHT?) favorite franchise. cthulhoo posted:you know i think i finally understand why nobody likes NMA posters I have never posted on NMA
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Jun 15, 2015 12:11
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Zombies' Downfall posted:I don't know that any choice they make could quadruple their market share, weren't Fallout 3 and Skyrim megahits regardless of their lack of a voiced protagonist? They were, but they likely consider that they will gain more than they'll lose by doing this and they're probably right They should've kept just text and added emoji as a concession to people who zone out after one line or whatever the complaint about no voice acting is My main beef is that VA costs a lot of money that could be instead be used to make the base game better
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Jun 15, 2015 12:12
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crawlkill posted:I have never posted on NMA maybe you should consider it  e:especially in light of this: quote:I was distracted into agreeing with queer issues! I really came here with the sweet, pure motive of frothing about how much I hate Bethesda and what they've done to everyone's (EVERYONE'S RIGHT?) favorite franchise. and also that other one about rape 
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Jun 15, 2015 12:13
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Zombies' Downfall posted:I don't know that any choice they make could quadruple their market share, weren't Fallout 3 and Skyrim megahits regardless of their lack of a voiced protagonist? It's not about the actual results or even coherent logic. When you're convincing investors who are trained by standard MBA education to mostly look at superficial data and trends as their rubric for future success, you're going to make those kinds of decisions in order to convince them that you're a safe investment. These guys look at movies in Hollywood and games coming out of other AAA studios and somehow seem to think "make it more like an action movie" or "THEY all have voiced protagonists" are the causation of a best-seller.
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Jun 15, 2015 12:14
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Zombies' Downfall posted:I don't know that any choice they make could quadruple their market share, weren't Fallout 3 and Skyrim megahits regardless of their lack of a voiced protagonist? I don't think it matters as long as you can trick the folks in charge into thinking it can. The people running these businesses know more about selling toothpaste than they do about making video games, so it'll be an easy sell. Then when the sales figures for Fallout 4 come out and beat the Skyrim launch figures, whoever came up with the idea of a voiced protagonist will go on about how it was his dumb idea that made it possible, get a bonus/promotion, and then that'll be the way of things going forward.
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Jun 15, 2015 12:14
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Why is that every time Bethesda releases a new game, I get reminded why I hate
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Jun 15, 2015 12:15
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I know I'm in the minority but I honestly think Skyrim with guns would be an improvement over what Fallout 4 actually is. But it seems everyone is hyped for it which is a shame, most of the things they're hyped for aren't improvements to me.
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Jun 15, 2015 12:16
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cthulhoo posted:maybe you should consider it it was a stab at being light and conciliatory, seems to've worked okay with the guy it was addressed to who hasn't just been throwing out one-liners about how little he cares for the past couple hours
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Jun 15, 2015 12:16
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my grandpa didnt fight in the 2nd world war for me to play a *horrified face* voiced protagonist in a video game ityool 2015
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Jun 15, 2015 12:17
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cthulhoo posted:and also that other one about rape wait wait so you'll sit around for hours talking about how you don't care about "tumblrina" poo poo but object to a common if admittedly silly rhetorical use of the word rape now this is a PC cipher
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Jun 15, 2015 12:18
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QuantaStarFire posted:I don't think it matters as long as you can trick the folks in charge into thinking it can. The people running these businesses know more about selling toothpaste than they do about making video games, so it'll be an easy sell. Then when the sales figures for Fallout 4 come out and beat the Skyrim launch figures, whoever came up with the idea of a voiced protagonist will go on about how it was his dumb idea that made it possible, get a bonus/promotion, and then that'll be the way of things going forward. Prettymuch this. The system of design-by-committee has taken hold of the games industry, much like it has in Hollywood filmmaking.
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Jun 15, 2015 12:19
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I hated that horrible Mass Effect game because you could only play as "Shepard". Doesn't matter that literally every decision was yours, his/her voice was not in my head so it must be a pre-defined one.
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Jun 15, 2015 12:20
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crawlkill posted:silly rhetorical use of the word rape it's me, i'm the silly rape
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Jun 15, 2015 12:20
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Bholder posted:Why is that every time Bethesda releases a new game, I get reminded why I hate For all the flaws of the last few pages, that's not really what's happening in this thread
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Jun 15, 2015 12:20
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QuantaStarFire posted:whoever came up with the idea of a voiced protagonist will go on about how it was his dumb idea that made it possible, get a bonus/promotion, and then that'll be the way of things going forward. I also had a vision of some executive sitting up abruptly at his desk and going "wait. wait, squad. I've got it. the next big thing." apparently after Conan O'Brian got fired the execs responsible just had no concept that it was even an important thing that the entire internet backswelled behind him. that's now the image I have of all corporate decisionmakers. completely out of touch, mistaking old standards for innovation. it'd be beautifully absurd if they didn't also own most ideas in the world.
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Jun 15, 2015 12:21
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Neeksy posted:Prettymuch this. The system of design-by-committee has taken hold of the games industry, much like it has in Hollywood filmmaking. ah yes fabled indie masterpiece fallout 3, so bespoke and artisanal not this retarded voiced bullshit
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Jun 15, 2015 12:22
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crawlkill posted:the topic's pretty much exhausted at this point, but to reiterate, I would be totally happy to play as any character if that character were gonna be well-written. I just don't trust Bethesda to do that. further, Fallout has a, what, 20-year tradition of having very sketchy character backgrounds, and between this and voicing your protagonist, you're starting to look like a much more "specific" person, particularly if the plot ends up being about your family, which, being Bethesda, seems likely. I make a valiant effort to like Bethesda games, and I'll pry make a valiant effort to like this one. if it sucks, as history suggests it will, then every bit of the Fallout tradition they carve out is that much more of a loss. if it doesn't suck, then all the format changes will be fine, and sacrifices in self-definition will've been made on the altar of a good story. If you have to make an effort to enjoy a game you're going to hate it regardless. You seem very invested in deciding a game you're clearly not going to enjoy will suck. Why not just skip it and play games you will like instead? I'm expecting it will be a pretty good game (as history suggests it will) that is probably a little buggy on launch (as history suggests it will) which a lot of people will enjoy a great deal without having to make any effort whatsoever. I expect it will have an OK story by post-apocalyptic video game standards, which isn't setting the bar particularly high.
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Jun 15, 2015 12:22
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Gravy Jones posted:If you have to make an effort to enjoy a game you're going to hate it regardless. You seem very invested in deciding a game you're clearly not going to enjoy will suck. Why not just skip it and play games you will like instead? it's a very strange position to be in, having most of the world telling you something's awesome when you don't like it. sometimes you're wrong! sometimes it's worth making the effort and working out why people like a thing you don't. so far, Bethesda's been unrewarding in this respect, but it's just sixty bucks and however many hours I can stand it. I don't keep playing these games after I start hating every instant. generally it's that the design flaws slowly emerge until I can't unsee them, I start to get critically bored, and then I just never come back to it. it's good for you to try and understand why other people like things you don't, if only so you can articulate your feelings when it comes up. and hey, maybe they'll've been right after all.
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Jun 15, 2015 12:26
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cthulhoo posted:ah yes fabled indie masterpiece fallout 3, so bespoke and artisanal I think we were talking about the general trend of how there's weird confirmation-bias in the system of marketing and investment of games, not how that necessarily relates directly to Fallout 3 being some kind of an indie-style production which is a claim nobody is making. Then again, I understand that speculating that the decision to go in a different direction with Fallout 4 being a marketing decision than an artistic one is based on feelings and appearances alone because there's no real way to tell.
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Jun 15, 2015 12:29
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Epic High Five posted:For all the flaws of the last few pages, that's not really what's happening in this thread You are right, it is just that every decision in games not retro or indy must be done by face-less, robotic company executives who care about nothing but objective statistics and how they can get profit from them. Because if you truly love RPGs you would never give a voice to your main character.
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Jun 15, 2015 12:33
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crawlkill posted:it's a very strange position to be in, having most of the world telling you something's awesome when you don't like it. No it's not. It's a completely normal position to be in. There is literally nothing strange about it all. crawlkill posted:it's good for you to try and understand why other people like things you don't Yet you have over a hundred posts in this fairly short thread where you're clearly not doing this. You're more invested in this game than most people who are looking forward to it. That is a strange position to be in. Gravy Jones fucked around with this message at 12:43 on Jun 15, 2015 |
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Jun 15, 2015 12:37
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HEY GUYS I LIKE FALLOUT A BUNCH! I SURE AM LOOKING FORWARD TO THIS NEW FALLOUT THING! They were very tight lipped about the story for some reason. We don't even know who we're fighting yet. Probably more enclave, which seems wrong after what happened in New Vegas. Also, I will be dissapointed if there isn't a questline wherein you need to join a society that is based in Harvard, and they send you on a bunch of openly dangerous and pointless quests for hazing.
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Jun 15, 2015 12:37
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European here still looking for a place/site to buy the collectors edition/ pip boy edition any hints would be appreciated.
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Jun 15, 2015 12:37
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crawlkill posted:it's a very strange position to be in, having most of the world telling you something's awesome when you don't like it. sometimes you're wrong! sometimes it's worth making the effort and working out why people like a thing you don't. so far, Bethesda's been unrewarding in this respect, but it's just sixty bucks and however many hours I can stand it. I don't keep playing these games after I start hating every instant. generally it's that the design flaws slowly emerge until I can't unsee them, I start to get critically bored, and then I just never come back to it. lol no loving way
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Jun 15, 2015 12:39
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Bholder posted:You are right, it is just that every decision in games not retro or indy must be done by face-less, robotic company executives who care about nothing but objective statistics and how they can get profit from them. I wouldn't say that. I'm not against the idea of a voiced main character myself, but I can understand how for some people it feels like it's taking something away from the series to do so. For them, the fact that this decision seems to fly in the face of what they believe has been the appeal of the series up to this point is explained by Bethesda facing industry pressures. Of course, it's impossible to truly know how every decision is made, but there are definitely trends out there that are arrived to through such reasoning rather than a more organic process of development. Basically, some people are coming at Fallout 4 with certain expectations and are feeling disappointed by them, whereas some see this as either a non-issue or perhaps potential for a different way forward for the series.
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Jun 15, 2015 12:39
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