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Eiba posted:This straight up isn't true in any way. ?????????????? The entire point of my post was that things like philosophy and religion for the most part never really moved from east to west. If China and India had never existed and there was a big China-shaped ocean in its place there would have been very little different in the development of the western half of Eurasia beyond higher-order macroeconomic effects that few people noticed at the time to begin with. It just didn't interact with Europe or even the Middle East a whole lot. The narrative you see about China regaining its rightful place in the world order or being a counterbalance to western civilization or whatever doesn't make any sense because it never was that, it never even really interacted with western civilization in the first place. Pakled posted:What year is this data for? I'm guessing it's not 2015 because who the gently caress would be moving to Yemen. Apparently lots of Somali refugees go to Yemen for work, possibly/probably as slave labor on a Gulf oil magnate's estate icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 06:15 on Jun 16, 2015 |
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Jun 16, 2015 06:05
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i hope you're kidding because that is not remotely true
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Jun 16, 2015 06:09
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Koramei posted:i hope you're kidding because that is not remotely true No it pretty much is? Unless you're going down the road of "Jesus got his ideas from the Buddha while traveling in Afghanistan" I don't see how you could argue otherwise? icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 06:20 on Jun 16, 2015 |
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Jun 16, 2015 06:18
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you edited your post so what i said makes less sense, but even if for some reason you want to leave out all the "boring higher-order macroeconomic stuff" (like, say, the mongol conquests or silk road or black death) that people absolutely would notice a change in, just look at the classic propaganda examples and tell me that European history wouldn't be radically altered with a change in any one of those. e: I get the sense that your greater point in this discussion is just to poo poo on China, which I can support, but what you're specifically arguing is abjectly wrong
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Jun 16, 2015 06:24
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I've said three times now that I mean philosophy and religion, and you keep citing mercantile trade and technology. And no I'm not trying to poo poo on China I'm just stating a fact. If you can't acknowledge it without blowing up maybe the bias here is with you? Amend my earlier statement to specifically say the cultural development of Europe/ME, and it becomes entirely true. The only example I can think of is Persian art being influenced by Chinese art, which is one, but otherwise nothing
icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 06:32 on Jun 16, 2015 |
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Jun 16, 2015 06:29
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How can we separate ideas like philosophy and religion from the context of their physical technology? To give a specific example, Western thought was hugely influenced by the printing press. The scientific method, Protestantism, the mass literacy that made liberal democracy a viable concern - those all exist because printing allowed the easy circulation of ideas. But the printing press required paper. Papyrus would be way too fragile to go through a printing press, and parchment would be too expensive for large-scale printing. Only paper could do it. Or, as that wiki article put it: Karl Marx posted:Gunpowder, the compass, and the printing press were the three great inventions which ushered in bourgeois society. Gunpowder blew up the knightly class, the compass discovered the world market and founded the colonies, and the printing press was the instrument of Protestantism and the regeneration of science in general; the most powerful lever for creating the intellectual prerequisites. Plato was wrong. Ideas don't live in a rarefied world, devoid of any link with the material society that surrounds them. Ponsonby Britt fucked around with this message at 07:51 on Jun 16, 2015 |
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Jun 16, 2015 07:49
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icantfindaname posted:The thing about China and maybe India being equal civilizations or whatever with the West is that they were historically large and wealthy, but they didn't directly interact either with each other or with the European/Middle Eastern ecumene a whole lot, just because of geography. Manufactured goods from one area ended up in the other sometimes, and there are Persian-influenced Muslims in both India and China, but that's essentially it as far as interaction went. Nobody in Europe or the ME ever heard of Confucianism or Hinduism until the early modern era and colonialism essentially. This isn't true. China and India historically interacted directly with each other on many occasions for thousands of years. Europe was somewhat isolated, yes, but still had many longstanding cultural contacts with Asia. The obvious example of cultural exchange between India and China is the spread of Buddhism. Other examples relevant to Europe include the Medieval Church's missions in China, many migrations across the Eurasian steppe like that of the Turks and Indo-Europeans, the Roma people's migration from India, Greco-Buddhist art, etc, etc. A small ivory statue of the Hindu goddess Lakshmi was found buried at Pompeii, Most likely it was picked up by a Roman trader operating in one of the many trade ports of India but it's entirely possible it belonged to an actual Indian person living in the city. There are several late Roman writers who comment on Buddhism, and it is probable their missionaries circulated through parts of the Empire.  Roman map of Indian port cities
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Jun 16, 2015 08:12
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Manichaeism Christianity was a syncretic faith that incorporated a lot of Buddhism into Christianity, though that is from Mani spending time with Indian Buddhists not Chinese Buddhists. Augustine of Hippo had been Manichaean and wound up being extremely influential to Christian theology after his conversion to the orthodox. There's a bit more west to east stuff though, two distinct times of Nestorian Christianity appearing in China before going extinct after a few centuries, one of the Mongol tribes in the 1200s on the Chinese border were Christian, Hercules became Vajrapani who became the Nio.
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Jun 16, 2015 08:18
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Konstantin posted:Has to be within the last year, look at Crimea. Wow, you're right. That's the politically loaded part.
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Jun 16, 2015 08:22
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Phlegmish posted:Wow, you're right. That's the politically loaded part. Nah that just represents the rapid migration of retired Russian soldiers.
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Jun 16, 2015 09:23
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Ponsonby Britt posted:
By the 6th century in China, sheets of paper were beginning to be used for toilet paper as well. During the Tang Dynasty (AD 618–907) paper was folded and sewn into square bags to preserve the flavor of tea. The Song Dynasty (AD 960–1279) that followed was the first government to issue paper currency. Sure, knibbly class, world markets, colonies, science, and church with different hats, but you can't have a bourgeois society without toilet paper, teabags, and paper money/stock certificates.
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Jun 16, 2015 09:38
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I thought the early [European] printing press was quite different from its Chinese counterpart and not directly derived from it?
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Jun 16, 2015 11:48
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Iirc both the Chinese and Europeans had both wood block printing and later moveable type printing. China never made much use of the movable type though, because it didn't mesh well with their China and Korea were the last countries to adopt the European movable type system.
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Jun 16, 2015 12:08
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Not a map, but still interesting.
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Jun 16, 2015 12:56
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Phlegmish posted:I thought the early [European] printing press was quite different from its Chinese counterpart and not directly derived from it? Yes, Gutenberg invented his press independently. Same idea but no connection.
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Jun 16, 2015 13:09
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Carbon dioxide posted:Not a map, but still interesting. Quick and dirty:  (I gave up on the various islands after about half a minute or I would have gone insane)
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Jun 16, 2015 13:14
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Jun 16, 2015 13:24
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Don't gently caress with the Mongols.
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Jun 16, 2015 14:09
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System Metternich posted:Quick and dirty: Haha, the Axis nations -- green to this day!
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Jun 16, 2015 14:10
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76 percent of Afghans are willing to fight
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Jun 16, 2015 14:12
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Pakled posted:What year is this data for? I'm guessing it's not 2015 because who the gently caress would be moving to Yemen. A wiki map, updated in 2014. It also doesn't really cite sources.
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Jun 16, 2015 14:14
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DrSunshine posted:Haha, the Axis nations -- green to this day! Well, we got whupped something fierce back then, no wonder people are hesitant to try that same poo poo again 
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Jun 16, 2015 14:27
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System Metternich posted:Quick and dirty: That's certainly a politically loaded color scheme.
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Jun 16, 2015 14:30
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Ponsonby Britt posted:How can we separate ideas like philosophy and religion from the context of their physical technology? To give a specific example, Western thought was hugely influenced by the printing press. The scientific method, Protestantism, the mass literacy that made liberal democracy a viable concern - those all exist because printing allowed the easy circulation of ideas. But the printing press required paper. Papyrus would be way too fragile to go through a printing press, and parchment would be too expensive for large-scale printing. Only paper could do it. The "material society" surrounding any of the three things you pointed to was far more complex than a question of whether printing was available or not. Protestantism and its intellectual content would have existed without the printing press, even if you exclude Wycliffe and Hus. It may not have been as successful, since printing was one among several reasons it spread in the way it did, but it would have existed. The same is roughly true of the so-called "Scientific Revolution," due to the limited number of people relative to the general population who were really involved in its formation and the way in which its knowledge was distributed, which took advantage of print but could have used letters and manuscripts exclusively. Mass literacy was shaped by the forms of media made available by printing but it was not caused by the wide availability of material like printed books and newspapers. It took several centuries after print was widely available for true mass literacy to exist.
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Jun 16, 2015 16:23
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Carbon dioxide posted:Not a map, but still interesting. Huh. Don't gently caress with Morocco I guess.
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Jun 16, 2015 20:07
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Time to get into central London using public transport: (Sorry about the resolution, TfL's fault) TinTower fucked around with this message at 20:14 on Jun 16, 2015 |
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Jun 16, 2015 20:11
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Ammat The Ankh posted:Huh. Don't gently caress with Morocco I guess. Morocco's also one of the oldest allies of the US, so there are two reasons not to mess with it. Samuel Clemens fucked around with this message at 20:47 on Jun 16, 2015 |
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Jun 16, 2015 20:44
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TinTower posted:Time to get into central London using public transport: What's the difference between colors, an hour or half hour or what?
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Jun 16, 2015 21:47
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Badger of Basra posted:What's the difference between colors, an hour or half hour or what? 15 minute granularity.
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Jun 16, 2015 23:01
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icantfindaname posted:The entire point of my post was that things like philosophy and religion for the most part never really moved from east to west. If China and India had never existed and there was a big China-shaped ocean in its place there would have been very little different in the development of the western half of Eurasia beyond higher-order macroeconomic effects that few people noticed at the time to begin with. It just didn't interact with Europe or even the Middle East a whole lot. The narrative you see about China regaining its rightful place in the world order or being a counterbalance to western civilization or whatever doesn't make any sense because it never was that, it never even really interacted with western civilization in the first place. And also you're wrong. Let's say we're talking pre 1500s so you don't have global oceanic trade yet: Materially, inventions diffused. Economically, the entire world was still oriented towards China. Roman aristocrats had a taste for silk, which wasn't grown next door. People traveled on those trade routes and, yes, passed more than goods along those routes. Ever heard of Nestorian Christians? Some of the nomads raiding Chinese cities worshiped a man the Romans nailed to a cross on the other end of the continent. Militarily and politically... the Mongols developed in the Chinese sphere. Their tactics (siege tactics in particular) were based on fighting in China and their imperial structure was created with the knowledge of how China ran. These people went on to rule the Middle East and Russia for a non-trivial amount of time. Even earlier I suppose you've never heard of the Greco-Bactrians, or the Indo-Greek Kingdoms. There were Hellenistic influences in India around the time Buddhism arose in India, which in turn influenced all of east Asia. Central Asia is not a wasteland. It has been full of cities and kingdoms rich on trade for thousands of years. Do you think the Chinese didn't know who these people were, or these people didn't know who the Chinese were? Or do you think it was the Middle East that was oddly ignorant of their neighbors? Do you know why Indonesia is the largest Muslim country in the world? Hint: they didn't independently develop Islam. I don't even know what your basic point is, but you're so fantastically misinformed about that I have to object regardless of what you're trying to say. For the map thread have a linked gigantic map of Islamic populations. Note the absolute cultural wall between east and west.
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Jun 17, 2015 02:22
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Carbon dioxide posted:Not a map, but still interesting. I wonder how much that correlates with compulsory military service
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Jun 17, 2015 02:46
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That Japan:11% would make imperial japan cry and then kill themselves.
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Jun 17, 2015 02:51
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Baloogan posted:That Japan:11% would make imperial japan cry and then kill themselves. It probably depends greatly upon how the question is posed though. Without further context and with the focus of the debate on military and use of force in Japan, people will assume that the nuance here is always going to be with military expeditions outside of the country's borders. If you asked specifically if people would be willing to fight an invasion you might, might, get a different result. Though the idea of 'legitimate' use of force in Japan is really nebulous; the Japanese have been told how loving great they are for 'giving up' violence for a couple generations and it's really really stuck with a fair portion of the populace, who conveniently forget how the economic forces Japan creates simply by existing as a major industrial power contributes to conflicts throughout the world. The term for it is heiwa-boke and there's actually a fair amount of discussion in academic circles about it.
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Jun 17, 2015 03:16
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Eiba posted:For the map thread have a linked gigantic map of Islamic populations. Note the absolute cultural wall between east and west. Why is Riyadh not in a coloured border?
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Jun 17, 2015 13:19
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If you look at the description in the corner, it says Wahhabism/Salafism is a different system in the same way as Shia Islam and Ibadism.
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Jun 17, 2015 15:26
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Baloogan posted:That Japan:11% would make imperial japan cry and then kill themselves. Same for Nazi Germany/Austria, franquist Spain, fascist Italy... I'm sensing a pattern here.
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Jun 17, 2015 18:40
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cebrail posted:Same for Nazi Germany/Austria, franquist Spain, fascist Italy... I'm sensing a pattern here. Turns out fascism was the road to peace. Also said road very long and paved with bodies.
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Jun 17, 2015 19:31
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A map of France in bars per 1000 inhabitants. I'm not sure what the cutoff is but the lowest figures I've found from randomly clicking is about .3/1000 :cryingbretonflagwithacrepeorsomething: And of course, Corisca. The map doesn't include any of the DOM-TOMs before anyone asks.  The original map http://www.letelegramme.fr/bretagne/debits-de-boisson-la-bretagne-jamais-gagnante-toujours-placee-17-06-2015-10670528.php
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Jun 17, 2015 21:03
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Hahahah the Alps
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Jun 17, 2015 23:40
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Count Roland posted:Not exactly related, but I've never before noticed that chunk of Angola on the other side of DR Congo. What's the story behind that? Angola was a Portuguese colony with a contiguous coastline. However, when King Leopold took over the Congo, he needed access to the sea. So, a treaty was signed and the Congo got herself an oceanic port, and Cabinda was formed. The Togolese national soccer team bus got shot there a few years ago, and several players and coaches were killed.
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Jun 18, 2015 16:23
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