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ComradeCosmobot posted:My understanding based on some commentary I recall reading is that the government would rather see the issue dead than to keep fighting it until someone has standing, so they're willfully turning a blind eye to the standing issue. quote:The defendants’ argument against standing is premised on the claim that the plaintiffs want to purchase “catastrophic” insurance coverage, which in some cases is more expensive than subsidized comprehensive coverage required by the Act. The defendants thus claim that the plaintiffs have acknowledged they would actually expend more money on a separate policy even if they were eligible for the credits. Regardless of the viability of this argument, it rests on an incorrect premise. The defendants misread the plaintiffs’ complaint, which, while mentioning the possibility that several of the plaintiffs wish to purchase catastrophic coverage, also clearly alleges that each plaintiff does not want to buy comprehensive, ACA-compliant coverage and is harmed by having to do so or pay a penalty. The harm in this case is having to choose between ACA-compliant coverage and the penalty, both of which represent a financial cost to the plaintiffs. That harm is actual or imminent, and is directly traceable to the IRS Rule. The plaintiffs thus have standing to present their claims.
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Jun 18, 2015 01:27
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Haha king is such a piece of poo poo.
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Jun 18, 2015 02:15
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If someone were to kill all the plaintiffs, it would moot the case. Justice Roberts sighed as he drew his katana.
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Jun 18, 2015 02:20
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:If someone were to kill all the plaintiffs, it would moot the case. I don't want him to be killed by anyone. I would rather see him develop an inoperable and incapacitating form of cancer and linger in excruciating, poorly-managed pain for years while the VA is gutted around him, foisting more and more cost of his care onto his shoulders. I want to see him have to be wheeled, wheezing and wincing, into a loving bankruptcy hearing so he can watch as the loving creditors take his goddamn house and estate while the pain eats away at the last of his sanity and he is pawned off onto a managed care facility and eventually hospice, dying alone because everyone in his family is too busy working to be with him as he breathes his last ragged breath.
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Jun 18, 2015 02:28
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If there are bad actors in this process, it's not the plaintiffs, but the sophisticated legal actors who are using them to pursue a given outcome. Test plaintiffs will always exist, or can be created. Legal teams and consultancies that build and train them, in pursuit of unethical outcomes- those are the real villains in this story.
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Jun 18, 2015 02:33
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Three Olives posted:I can't even, jesus, what a contemptible piece of poo poo. Jesus of christ. If the court actually rules for King I think I'm going to have an aneurism. There's no way the court is going to rule in his favor, right? Right? 
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Jun 18, 2015 02:34
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Oh don't get me wrong, the Cato institute is full of far worse people, but king is still a lying piece of poo poo.
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Jun 18, 2015 02:35
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Discendo Vox posted:If there are bad actors in this process, it's not the plaintiffs, but the sophisticated legal actors who are using them to pursue a given outcome. Test plaintiffs will always exist, or can be created. Legal teams and consultancies that build and train them, in pursuit of unethical outcomes- those are the real villains in this story. That didn't work at Nuremburg and that was almost 70 years ago. They can all be bad actors.
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Jun 18, 2015 02:38
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Discendo Vox posted:If there are bad actors in this process, it's not the plaintiffs, but the sophisticated legal actors who are using them to pursue a given outcome. Test plaintiffs will always exist, or can be created. Legal teams and consultancies that build and train them, in pursuit of unethical outcomes- those are the real villains in this story. I mean, yeah? King is obviously an idiot incapable mentally or financially going about this by himself but at the same time he smugly sits back with full understanding of what he has potentially done and says "gently caress you, I have nothing to lose or gain here, it will work itself out. What's on sale at Lowe's?" while he is doing something basically evil and fucks millions of people over based on what is best a typo. And he admits he doesn't understand any of it. I mean yeah, the people that are enabling him are slightly worse I guess, there are plenty of dumb people that would do terrible things if they could pull them off but nope, he doesn't get any credit, he is a horrible, horrible, down to the bone sack of poo poo.
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Jun 18, 2015 02:42
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Three Olives posted:I can't even, jesus, what a contemptible piece of poo poo. So can we send him to prison for lying regardless of how this case turns out? hobbesmaster posted:If they somehow punt on standing... All 9 justices are almost certainly aware the groups behind this poo poo will just file suit again with someone else who does have proper standing and the end result will be a colossal waste of everyone's time. That said, I hope they punt because if it takes another year or two for the next case to reach them it just makes any Obamacare subsidy nullification that much more dangerous for the GOP. FAUXTON posted:I don't want him to be killed by anyone. I would rather see him develop an inoperable and incapacitating form of cancer and linger in excruciating, poorly-managed pain for years while the VA is gutted around him, foisting more and more cost of his care onto his shoulders. I want to see him have to be wheeled, wheezing and wincing, into a loving bankruptcy hearing so he can watch as the loving creditors take his goddamn house and estate while the pain eats away at the last of his sanity and he is pawned off onto a managed care facility and eventually hospice, dying alone because everyone in his family is too busy working to be with him as he breathes his last ragged breath. I'd be ok with him being sent to prison for the rest of his life. He'd probably be safer in there than on the streets if he causes millions of people to lose their insurance. The people behind this farce? Death by Guillotine.
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Jun 18, 2015 02:44
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Evil Fluffy posted:All 9 justices are almost certainly aware the groups behind this poo poo will just file suit again with someone else who does have proper standing and the end result will be a colossal waste of everyone's time. They punt all the time if they don't want to deal with something for another couple years.
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Jun 18, 2015 02:48
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King is just reassuring us that even if Obama's plot to use the Supreme Court to take away his insurance succeeds, ultimately he will fail because Obama can't beat our troops 
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Jun 18, 2015 02:54
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FAUXTON posted:That didn't work at Nuremburg and that was almost 70 years ago. They can all be bad actors. I think people being used as test plaintiffs in a complicated legal process for political purposes is very different from being a party to the mechanical and systemic genocide of multiple ethnic groups.
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Jun 18, 2015 02:58
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Mr Jaunts posted:There's no way the court is going to rule in his favor, right? Right?
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Jun 18, 2015 03:01
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Hot Dog Day #91 posted:I think people being used as test plaintiffs in a complicated legal process for political purposes is very different from being a party to the mechanical and systemic genocide of multiple ethnic groups. I think people willingly taking direction from powerful evil overlords in the furtherance of their evils is the same thing no matter who is being killed.
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Jun 18, 2015 03:02
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FAUXTON posted:I think people willingly taking direction from powerful evil overlords in the furtherance of their evils is the same thing no matter who is being killed. Except genocide is pretty obviously bad and there's no excuse for just following orders, whereas there's an even chance this guy has no substantial understanding of this issue. It doesn't mean he's not an rear end in a top hat, but there's a difference between being an ignorant rear end in a top hat and an rear end in a top hat with knowledge and intent.
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Jun 18, 2015 03:10
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FAUXTON posted:I think people willingly taking direction from powerful evil overlords in the furtherance of their evils is the same thing no matter who is being killed. It's disingenuous to argue that being involved in the King lawsuit as a plaintiff is killing people on the same scale as the holocaust. By that logic, then every one who votes republican is a monster, because republicans opposed the affordable care act.
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Jun 18, 2015 03:12
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Saying that he's not worried about losing the subsidies because he personally has coverage through the VA (which the millions of people depending on the subsidies he's suing to take from the don't have), and lying about not having another option to avoid the penalty so he could have standing to sue kinda makes it sound like he knew what the suit was supposed to accomplish and intended it. "I don't want affordable insurance, and Obama is harming me by making me get it" was a lie: he already had affordable health care, he just wanted to make sure other people didn't get it. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 03:17 on Jun 18, 2015 |
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Jun 18, 2015 03:14
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FAUXTON posted:I think people willingly taking direction from powerful evil overlords in the furtherance of their evils is the same thing no matter who is being killed. When you smile when asked why you threw the match, saying "The fire won't effect me in any way, because I'm just visiting so I can throw this match" you're pretty loving evil all on your own. Evil puppet-masters in search of a good marionette be damned.
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Jun 18, 2015 03:14
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Jarmak posted:Except genocide is pretty obviously bad and there's no excuse for just following orders, whereas there's an even chance this guy has no substantial understanding of this issue. And this particular rear end in a top hat has knowledge and intent. He knows exactly what the evil bastards are doing leading him around by the nose/wallet, and he knows he's not going to be affected by a ruling that imperils the lives of millions. You don't have to actually be pumping the gas and working the furnaces to be complicit and culpable for the holocaust, and the same applies to King. He's filing suit on someone else's dime but he absolutely loving signed on to do so.
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Jun 18, 2015 03:19
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Hot Dog Day #91 posted:I think people being used as test plaintiffs in a complicated legal process for political purposes is very different from being a party to the mechanical and systemic genocide of multiple ethnic groups. That's because you were warped by law school and now you think like a lawyer.
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Jun 18, 2015 03:20
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VitalSigns posted:Saying that he's not worried about losing the subsidies because he personally has coverage through the VA (which the millions of people depending on the subsidies he's suing to take from the don't have), and lying about not having another option to avoid the penalty so he could have standing to sue kinda makes it sound like he knew what the suit was supposed to accomplish and intended it. Service guarantees citizenship, but he'd like to know more.
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Jun 18, 2015 03:23
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sullat posted:That's because you were warped by law school and now you think like a lawyer. False. I think like a bureaucrat.
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Jun 18, 2015 03:24
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Hot Dog Day #91 posted:It's disingenuous to argue that being involved in the King lawsuit as a plaintiff is killing people on the same scale as the holocaust. By that logic, then every one who votes republican is a monster, because republicans opposed the affordable care act. But they are 
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Jun 18, 2015 03:25
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I wish the Medicaid expansion went through in my state so I didn't have to use the VA. gently caress the VA.
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Jun 18, 2015 03:34
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Hot Dog Day #91 posted:It's disingenuous to argue that being involved in the King lawsuit as a plaintiff is killing people on the same scale as the holocaust. By that logic, then every one who votes republican is a monster, because republicans opposed the affordable care act. Maybe 20 years ago there was merit in utter ignorance of the harm caused by conservativism's policies but between the internet and the Bush years plenty has happened to make that excuse utterly worthless.
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Jun 18, 2015 03:38
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FAUXTON posted:Maybe 20 years ago there was merit in utter ignorance of the harm caused by conservativism's policies but between the internet and the Bush years plenty has happened to make that excuse utterly worthless. Not everyone is a committed political observer. Lots of people are conservative out of fear, ignorance, indoctrination, laziness, or I'm sure a number of other factors. I'm sorry that they're not perfect, but I don't think that makes them evil or comparable to the architects of the holocaust.
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Jun 18, 2015 03:45
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Hot Dog Day #91 posted:Not everyone is a committed political observer. Lots of people are conservative out of fear, ignorance, indoctrination, laziness, or I'm sure a number of other factors. I'm sorry that they're not perfect, but I don't think that makes them evil or comparable to the architects of the holocaust. Fearing the gays will ruin your marriage or ask you to sell their wedding party a cake isn't just fear, it's loving homophobia. Claiming your lily-white rear end got discriminated against via affirmative action when your GPA and test scores were borderline inadmissible isn't laziness, it's loving racism. You don't have to be a "committed political observer" to be a goddamn racist homophobe. That's such a loving cop-out.
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Jun 18, 2015 03:56
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This is the point of my observation, guys- there will always be people who are bigoted, or indoctrinated, or racist, or whatever you would like. The harm here is generated by the people who are able to weaponize those beliefs. King is harmless and easily replaced (a part of why standing isn't really being pursued). It's the people behind him that are instrumental. I think what we're seeing here is a distinction between deontological and consequentialist accounts of ethical culpability. I'm very far toward the consequentialist end of things.
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Jun 18, 2015 06:20
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Hey whatever happened to the thing where the supremist court was going to kill obamneycare?
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Jun 18, 2015 06:30
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FAUXTON posted:I think people willingly taking direction from powerful evil overlords in the furtherance of their evils is the same thing no matter who is being killed. In non-lawyer speak, you're a fag. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 18, 2015 06:35
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This poster loves police brutality, but only when its against minorities!
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Discendo Vox posted:I think what we're seeing here is a distinction between deontological and consequentialist accounts of ethical culpability. I'm very far toward the consequentialist end of things. Just because King is theoretically replaceable doesn't mean he's inconsequential. Everyone is replaceable: if the particular people backing this lawsuit had gone into social work instead, there's be some other crop of assholes who would have engineered it too, because there are a lot of right-wingers in this country and a lot of support for it. I don't really subscribe to the Great Man theory of history, and I don't see the distinction you're making here: the abhorrent views of king and people like him are having actual consequences.
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Jun 18, 2015 06:44
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Discendo Vox posted:This is the point of my observation, guys- there will always be people who are bigoted, or indoctrinated, or racist, or whatever you would like. The harm here is generated by the people who are able to weaponize those beliefs. King is harmless and easily replaced (a part of why standing isn't really being pursued). It's the people behind him that are instrumental. People like King are still harmful even when not supported by wealthy tyrants. Take the events unfolding in Charleston for example. It's unlikely that the suspect is being bankrolled by the kochs but he still murdered quite a few people. Assigning blame or suspicion to King's pimps doesn't have to diminish the blame and/or suspicions attached to him, and holding King equally culpable doesn't diminish the blame assigned to his pimps. He still mounted that soapbox when led to it, he can rot in hell with he rest of them.
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Jun 18, 2015 06:52
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VitalSigns posted:Just because King is theoretically replaceable doesn't mean he's inconsequential. That's...really not the case. The number of people able, willing and sufficiently sociopathic to take a case like this to the Supreme Court is very limited. FAUXTON posted:People like King are still harmful even when not supported by wealthy tyrants. Take the events unfolding in Charleston for example. It's unlikely that the suspect is being bankrolled by the kochs but he still murdered quite a few people. Assigning blame or suspicion to King's pimps doesn't have to diminish the blame and/or suspicions attached to him, and holding King equally culpable doesn't diminish the blame assigned to his pimps. He still mounted that soapbox when led to it, he can rot in hell with he rest of them. This is what I mean by a deontological framing- both of these actors cause harm and (in general terms) kill, but from a consequentialist framing, some of them have a greater capacity for relative degrees of harm than others- and causally speaking, their actions are more necessary to that degree of harm. vvvv Right. Exactly. He's a rube, and there are millions of him. Singling him out for blame beyond most of the rest of the red states doesn't make much sense. The people who taught him not to care, and have groomed him for his role, are the actual problem- both from a general ethical standpoint, and from a legal perspective for their abuse of standing (surprise, the formalist doesn't like facially invalid political cases!). Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 07:08 on Jun 18, 2015 |
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Jun 18, 2015 06:57
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Discendo Vox posted:This is what I mean by a deontological framing- both of these actors cause harm and (in general terms) kill, but from a consequentialist framing, some of them have a greater capacity for relative degrees of harm than others- and causally speaking, their actions are more necessary to that degree of harm. Their capacity to cause harm is predicated on there being an unending waiting room full of hateful rubes with delusions of grandeur like King.
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Jun 18, 2015 07:01
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Discendo Vox posted:If there are bad actors in this process, it's not the plaintiffs, but the sophisticated legal actors who are using them to pursue a given outcome. Test plaintiffs will always exist, or can be created. Legal teams and consultancies that build and train them, in pursuit of unethical outcomes- those are the real villains in this story. If this were really the case all the time you'd think a better test plaintiff than Abigail Fisher would've made it to the Supreme Court 
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Jun 18, 2015 09:47
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I just want to make sure I am understanding this correctly. Is it the position of posters in this thread that not only is not voting democrat morally evil, but that it's evil to same degree as the holocaust?
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Jun 18, 2015 11:52
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ActusRhesus posted:I just want to make sure I am understanding this correctly. Is it the position of posters in this thread that not only is not voting democrat morally evil, but that it's evil to same degree as the holocaust? Naw just Fauxton
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Jun 18, 2015 12:06
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ActusRhesus posted:I just want to make sure I am understanding this correctly. Is it the position of posters in this thread that not only is not voting democrat morally evil, but that it's evil to same degree as the holocaust? I def take the former position
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Jun 18, 2015 13:17
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Would it be possible to charge King with perjury if it's discovered that he knew his VA eligibility would exempt him from any ACA requirements or penalties prior to the lawsuit? I know the VA sent out something very early on to all eligible vets.
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Jun 18, 2015 13:29
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